PCM/gladstone claimform -

[jimbojetset68]

I was on a private road which goes to Hayes station.

There was a lorry infront of me turning, blocking g the road, so I stopped and let my wife out, turned round and went, instead of waiting to use a parking bay.

 

The images sent to me are two mono 2 x 3.5 cm. The car in the picture is only 4mm's wide.

Nothing on the vehicle is identifiable.

 

SOME WORDING FROM THE PCN

0n 30/10/15 when this vehicle was packed in a manner whereby the driver agreed to pay a charge: " parking outside a marked bay / on restricted roadway / landscaped / paved area or causing an obstruction or inconvenience to others,"

- The signage in the area is clear and concise.

 

Time stamp for my offence is one time only, does not state a period.

No VAT registered details, or VAT breakdown of payment.

 

The height of the text maximum on the signs is 1.5cm's.

They are not lit at night.

[armadillo71]

This wasn't railway land then? Hayes station is managed by meteor apparently;

 

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations_destinations/HYS.aspx

 

From what you have written, then the NTK is not compliant with schedule 4 of the POFA, so no keeper liability.

 

It would be helpful to see a redacted copy of the NTK...

[ericsbrother]

Well, for starters you werent parked but stationary in traffic.

Tell them that the vehicle was stationary in traffic rather than saying YOU were so not as to identify the driver at the time.

 

Let them know that they are being utterly stupid in their assertion and you will happily involve the local press and television as this claim is clearly absurd.

 

Let them know if they dont cancel you will be requesting the full CCTV tape as a SAR and will be putting it in the public domain to warn others about the company's attempt to get money by fraud.

 

Their claim is faulty in many other ways but what the hell, use this first and if they reject your appeal then you can give them both barrels

Edited June 20, 2018 by dx100uk
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[jimbojetset68]

I am sorry, what is NTK. This is all new to me.

 

As for the link thank you, the area I was in says pay and display on the train link map.

 

I will try to do a copy soon, just need to sort my scanner out.

 

The area I was in is private road, use to be access to the station as a drop off.

 

What is a SAR

 

Thanks,

 

J

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

If you click on the link in armadillo's signature, it has a link to the forum abbreviations.

 

HB

[jimbojetset68]

Thank you HB,

 

This legal stuff is interesting, however what a way to find out about it.

Are there legal people on here, as some seem to know so much.

 

J

[ericsbrother]

dont forget,

they are accusing you of a breach of contract by parking in a particular manner.

You didnt do that, whatever else you did do isnt relevant to this demand.

 

SAR= subject access request under the Data Protection Act.

It will cost you a tenner so dont do it willy-nilly but the threat of showing your data (their CCTV of your car) on the telly may very well make them think about the thresholds they set for making stupid demands from the public when they have no cause to.

 

Sometimes the best way of defeating these people is to open them up to ridicule. No-one will take them seriously if they try and follow through with something like this and it becomes general knowledge.

 

Once in the open they wont be able to bluff others into paying so they may well cancel your demand "as a gesture of goodwill"

Edited June 20, 2018 by dx100uk
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[jimbojetset68]

It looks like the size of or is a mobile phone in a green case they are using.

 

Do I say anything about a SAR in my initial appeal to them?

 

Oh, I got the PCN on 7th November, when legally do my 14 days start to pay the lower sum?

 

Thanks,

 

J

Edited November 11, 2015 by jimbojetset68

[ericsbrother]

If you are fighting this you never have worry about paying the lower sum.

Just write the letter as outlined in my first post and let them worry.

 

If it goes to POPLA you can demand the CCTV as part of the evidence bundle so get it for free but I would still be letting them know that you are up for the challenge and want to try and make them look fools in public.

 

It is always for them to prove their claim not you disprove it.

If you say that your car was stationary in traffic then that is true unless they can prove otherwise.

 

They would be very brave or foolish to press such a claim if there is evidence t the contrary and that can include the testimony of the passenger.

 

They are only after your money and if they know they arent getting it they will go after some other mug who is not so resilient.

Edited June 20, 2018 by dx100uk
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[ericsbrother]

By the way, their original notice to you is not PoFA compliant but save that for the appeal. Will say why when you have fired off your initial appeal.

[jimbojetset68]

Here is the NTK as requested.

[jimbojetset68]

I may put that in my initial letter, without knowing I did it.

It is taking something to put together.

By the way, their original notice to you is not PoFA compliant but save that for the appeal. Will say why when you have fired off your initial appeal.

[armadillo71]

Been bugging me... and now the NTK explains it.

 

jimbo- Why didn't you correct the station in post #2?

 

You were caught/trapped here weren't you;

 

http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/stations/HAY/details.aspx

 

Looking at the signage , then no contract can be formed without getting out of the car and reading the sign up close....

 

Station Approach

 

https://goo.gl/maps/fXL5tE5N9P22

[ericsbrother]

A one liner is all that is needed,

 

" the vehicle was stationary in traffic and therefore no breach has occurred"

 

Dont add anything else as it may come back to bite you.

They have to prove their claim, not you disprove it so save everything else for a formal appeal if the reject (they will, they are greedy and stupid).

This will cost them money, they will lose and it will cost them more money.

 

One of the biggest problems we have helping people is because they are new to this they dont know what to think or say so say anything and everything because they believe that there is some person who reads it who actually takes any notice of what is said and applies a judgement to their thought processes. They dont,

 

these companies are here to make as much money as they can and will tell lies to get your money but generally rely on ignorance, intimidation and gobbledygook legalese to cajole you into paying as they know they have no right to ask for anything.

 

At this stage you dont need to know any more about the mechanics of the later appeal, just get this bit done and you may never have to.

You will then have the time to discover the rest at your own pace.

Edited June 20, 2018 by dx100uk
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[jimbojetset68]

Armidillo

 

Not sure what you mean by correct it.

I am missing something simple that you can see, but possibly not to me?

Yes, the signage is so small.

 

Will be taking a rule to it this weekend and shooting it in RAW digital negative.

[jimbojetset68]

Right this is what I have put so far, not edited or finished yet, but needs to be done for Mondays post.

Some work has been done for me from a website which provided a template to use for your own circumstances.

 

LETTER TO THE PARKING COMPANY OR PRIVATE APPEALS SERVICE


Without Prejudice

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Re Registration number/parking charge number/any other reference number.

I am challenging your parking charge notice dated xxxx on the following grounds. Please respond to each individual point that I state.

 

The said vehicle was stationary in traffic caused by a very large vehicle and other car turning to get out of the only exit to the main roads.

The signage is too small unless you get out of a vehicle and block the no through road.

 

 

• The large sum demanded amounts to a penalty and/or is not an accurate reflection of any loss suffered so it is not a reasonable charge. Your monetary claim is disproportionate, punitive and unjustifiable in total. It may also be an unfair term and therefore in breach of Schedule 2 of the Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999.

 

Please provide a breakdown of how your demanded charge is calculated so that I can consider further whether it amounts to a penalty.

• The contractual breach can have caused no financial loss whatever to you or to the land owner but if you believe it has please set out the details clearly in your response. If you believe the driver has committed a trespass please substantiate your consequential actual loss. There were, for example, unoccupied places available for others to park so the said vehicle presence did not prevent the parking of other cars and their making of payments.

 

• The requirements are that clear signage must be erected at each entrance and additional signage installed throughout the area.

• Having visited the site and researched the rules I understand why the signage is not clear.

There is not clear signage at the land stating the restrictions in force.

The letters on the entrance signs do not meet the minimum height of 50mm necessary for adequate driver information.

The parking signs around the site are smaller than the minimum necessary size of 450mm x 450mm.

The BPA and APS logos are not clearly displayed on the signage despite it being a specific requirement for compliant signage.

 

• Your Civil Parking Notice constitutes an invoice for payment. Accordingly your invoiced charge must include an element of VAT. However, your civil parking notice does not state either a VAT registration number or an invoice reference number and so cannot constitute a lawfully valid demand for payment.


 

• Having examined your parking charge notice I believe it is a non compliant demand for payment for the following reasons:

Your notice refers in the text to being a PCN/ penalty charge notice, this term being attributed to a penalty charge notice issued by a local authority. It is therefore easily confused with a statutory penalty charge notice, abbreviations and terms are not permissible.

Your notice wrongly requires payment to be made “within” 28 days which is contrary to statutory requirement that provides a period of 28 days from the date of receipt.


 

• I understand that, as a legal minimum, the Parking Charge Notice must include a prescribed set of information. The following is not shown on your notice and therefore it is invalid.

When and how the parking offence took place;

The time and date period when the notice was issued;

How much is due;

The arrangements provided for the resolution of disputes or complaints – both for your own internal arrangements and for an independent appeals process.

 

• I understand that a Parking Charge Notice must also include the following which is absent from the notice you have provided and therefore it may be invalid.

Why the ticket was issued

A detailed location of the vehicle

An identifier number of the warden who issued the ticket

The operator’s company registration number

A statement that you will enquire from the DVLA details of the registered keeper

Any additional charges which may be levied.

The IPC AND IAS logos


 

• The rules of the IPC require you to allow a grace period either to allow a motorist to read the signs and make payment or decide whether parking is permitted, A reasonable grace period would be 5 minutes but it may be that the owners of this site have instructed you to offer a different grace period. Please advise the actual grace period in operation so that I can assess whether you have acted reasonably.


 

• If this challenge / appeal is rejected, to enable me to prepare a formal appeal to IAS please provide the following documentation:

 

Please delete any items which you do not require.

A copy of your contract with the land owner which authorises you to act on their behalf in the management of this car parking area.

 

A copy of the contract which you allege was entered in to when the driver parked.

Photographic evidence of the actual signs in situ, together with identification of the locations around the site where these signs are currently placed.

 

Please also confirm the date when the photographs were taken (if not evident from the photographs themselves) and whether you have made any alterations to the signage since the photograph was taken.

 

A copy of the full terms and conditions for use of the land where the driver was allegedly parked wrongly.

A copy of your certificate of membership of the IPC

A copy of your protocol which your enforcement and CCTV operators are required to follow.

A copy of your standard appeal procedure and confirm whether or not it complies with the Arbitration Act 1996.

 

Full details of the owner of the parking area (if it is not already stated in the copy contract above) as I wish to send them a copy of my letter to you.

A copy of all of the images that you have of my vehicle. I understand that the Data Protection Act entitles me to all of this information.

A copy of your protocol for handling personal data such as images of my vehicle. I assume that such data is not disclosed to any third party (other than IAS in the event of an appeal) but confirm this.

 

European consumer legislation requires contracts to be fair means so-called ‘early payment discounts’, which are often used to put pressure on the public to pay up quickly, or face a higher charge, are in fact unlawful because they constitute a ‘price escalation clause’.

 

Please not I will be requesting a SAR on any data you hold on me.

 

You are being hopeful in your assertion and I will happily involve the local press and television as this claim is clearly illogical.

 

Provide this information within 14 days of receipt. If you are unable to provide any of the requested documents please provide a reason for each omission.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Vehicle details you sent on the PCN are incorrect. (colour of Vehicle).

The PCN does not specify the actual action for which the PCN was issued, provide evidence of the actual action.

The PCN is incomplete at the bottom.

 

Image Evidence

 

There is no clarity to the images on the PCN to identify the vehicle.

Supply all images of the vehicle showing actual proof it was the said vehicle.

Supply time and date stamped images with meta data to prove alleged action.

 

Provide evidence of safety to proceed down the no through road to turn, with lack of obstructions at the time of the alleged action.

Provide evidence that the PCN is legally allowed to be issued by PCM.

Provide evidence of the contract between PCM and the Landlord of the said road covering the date of the alleged action.

Provide proof of your membership status of IPC.

 

In breach of IPC code of practice Part C. 3, 3.1, C. no time period produced.

In breach of IPC code of practice Part C. 3, 3.1, F. not specifying actual circumstances in which charges arose.

 

Proof that on the date and time of the alleged action, that the moveable sign was present and readable by drivers entering the road and complies with IPC code of practice.

[jimbojetset68]

The sign and the Red oil drum that the first sign you see is on.

[armadillo71]

Armidillo

 

Not sure what you mean by correct it.

I am missing something simple that you can see, but possibly not to me?

Yes, the signage is so small.

 

Will be taking a rule to it this weekend and shooting it in RAW digital negative.

 

My link in post #2 is for the wrong train station.....

 

Please read ericsbrothers post #14 again. I would say that it needs to be a two liner though.

 

State at the outset that as Registered Keeper you are not liable for the charge.

 

And do not identify the driver.

[ericsbrother]

Jimbo, that is just a waste of ink at this stage, they arent going to read it and understand it and suddenly have a lightbulb moment..

 

Stick to a one liner and leave it at that.

If they reject your appeal then you can hit them with a bigger stick at the formal appeal where they will be forced to produce some evidence of all sorts of things..

 

Dont forget, you are not dealing with lawyers but a bunch of people with shaven heads who have a collection of rusty clamps back at the depot and couldnt get a job window cleaning. You should see the group photos as the BPA annual awards bash, I have seen less scary line ups in an identity parade at Brixton nick

[jimbojetset68]

Any good?

 

Without Prejudice

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Re Registration number/parking charge number/any other reference number.

I am challenging your parking charge notice dated xxxx on the following grounds. Please respond to each individual point that I state.

 

The said vehicle was stationary in traffic therefore no breach has occurred.

No contract can be achieved without getting out of a vehicle to read the signage.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully,

[honeybee13]

jimbo, if you click on the without prejudice hyperlink in either your post or mine, it's saying that the heading WP might not be helpful.

 

I'll leave others to comment on the letter itself, as they know more than I do.

 

HB

[jimbojetset68]

I will take it out, as I am happy to go to court and provide more evidence.

 

Measured signage

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Re Registration number/parking charge number/any other reference number.

I am challenging your parking charge notice dated xxxx on the following grounds. Please respond to each individual point that I state.

 

The said vehicle was stationary in traffic therefore no breach has occurred.

No contract can be achieved without getting out of a vehicle to read the signage.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully,

[ericsbrother]

the last statement is not strictly true and we have defeated several claims as the signage was unreadable from a vehicle for several reasons.

 

Do not use it at this juncture or you will create a slippery slope argument.

More is not necessarily better.

 

They arent likely to agree with you but they will have nowhere to go when you make a formal appeal so don't go down a road that you cannot return from so to speak.

[jimbojetset68]

This is my 1st letter.

 

Dear Sir/Madam

Re Registration number/parking chargeicon number/any other reference number.

I am challenging your parking charge notice dated xxxx on the following grounds. Please respond to the point that I state.

 

The said vehicle was stationary in traffic therefore no breach has occurred.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

The whole images on the evidence show 25 seconds of footage from image 1 to image 4, the last image is me reversing as i could not turn down the road.

[caro]

I've had tickets from PCM and they only ever show 1 time as the mere act of "parking" is enough for them.

 

I've ignored them and after a few months the begging letters from them and their dca stopped.

 

You could always have some fun and tell them that you'd be more than happy to see them in court and let a judge decide if you or whoever was driving the vehicle in question owed anything. If they don't want to go down that route, suggest that they simply confirm that they will stop harassing you.