UKPC claim form received - help **UKPC BEATEN AGAIN**

[honeybee13]

hello

 

 

following on from my stupid email that I sent to UKPC, I received the reply above

 

When did you receive the email please?

 

HB

[justremaincalm]

today at 5 pm. that was in repsons eto my email that I sent them

[steampowered]

When you rent all the rights of that tenancy are assigned to you by the flat owner unless they are excluded. Using a lettings agency doesnt change that. The thing to remember is that then parking co has been signed up by the managing agents of the development so they are stuffed if they are asked to provide a contract with the landlord as the landlord in your case is one of 2 people- the flat owner or the entity that owns the development. The lease of the flat (signed by flat purchaser and your landlord) will say whether there is any restrictions on parking and if they dont then the landowner cannot now add them or assign away any rights except to commonly used land and that may include parkingthat is not allocated. However, as I have said, the parking co will have a deal with the managing agents that is designed to line their pockets rather than manage parking.

 

When you own a flat, you would normally take a lease over the flat itself. A right to park would normally be under a contractual licence rather than a lease.

 

The Op would be the sub-tenant in respect of the flat and sub-licensee in respect of parking. Assuming this is a car park managed by the freeholder, the freeholder would be responsible for enforcing parking restrictions.

 

Details of exact parking arrangements may be contained in the head lease between the freeholder and the landlord (as the tenant the Op is unlikely to have a copy of this lease).

[justremaincalm]

I live in a block of flats

lots of mail lying around, not in the letter box.

 

Thought better chek all of it

 

Shocked:

 

SCS has sent me another letter a week ago for £3500. total shock; relates to my old car; so now in total its approx. £4500.

 

The latter notice was sent to slightly wrong address;

 

Some of the fines go as far as back as 2013.

 

I don't have those PCNs.

 

I feel terrible!!!

 

£4500 for parking in front of own flat

[armadillo71]

My final advice to you is to ignore everything from UKPC/SCS and make no contact with them.

 

Do not ignore REAL court papers if they come. But you haven't had any in two years so doubt they will...

 

I am going to ignore this thread now.

[justremaincalm]

Arma

 

 

Thankyou for your advice.

 

 

Am very sorry to lose your advice though as you will be ignoring this thread, but I appreciate all that you have said to me so far.

[Guest Thudd]

Momal - you PM'd me about posting on pepipoo forums. Unfortunately I can't PM back or post full links, as I don't have enough posts.

 

Go to forums.pepipoo.com and read the very first thread on that page - it's called GETTING STARTED - Frequently Asked Questions

 

That will take you to a page with 2 important threads on:

 

• How to prepare and post photographs/images
  
• Beginner's Guide: How to post a new topic
  

Should gve you everything you need to know.

 

Be aware, Pepipoo don't have a lot of server space to host pictures directly so make use of something like Tinypic and link to it. Its all in the threads above.

[justremaincalm]

Thanks Thudd

 

I really appreciate your advice and everyone else's here.

 

regards

 

mo

 

Thudd

 

I tried but I get this message

 

"Sorry, you do not have permission to start a topic in this forum"

[Guest Thudd]

Thudd

 

 

I tried but I get this message

 

 

"Sorry, you do not have permission to start a topic in this forum"

Make sure you are properly registered and logged in

[ericsbrother]

MOMAL,

what part of the advice dont you believe?

These letters are utter cobblers and if the muppets are stupid enough to go further they will lose a fortune.

 

 

Now stick to the brief and get the dates of the screen tickets collated and pair them up with the NTK's as I asked,

you will find that they are very unlikely to be PoFA compliant so post up the content of one of the NTK's with your personal details redacted

and we will have a read of it and comment accordingly.

You probably have a very strong case for suing them for harassment.

 

Also get a letter off to the DVLA and find out who has been accessing your vehicle keeper details

(check both cars as I bet they have been lazy and not checked every time)

and then make a complaint to the DVLA and ICO about unlawful processing of your data

if you find even one error or shortfall in data access events versus demands made.

 

 

UKPC are in deep doodoo over criminal matter already so another example

and the boy in blue from the City of London police might make a call on them.

[justremaincalm]

ericsbrother

 

 

I have uploaded excel sheet on post 50 showing the date for each ticket and the NTK date.

You can se that the the tickets started from July trough to September this year

 

I will upload one of the NTKs

 

I have emailed DVLA as Armadillo suggested.

 

Thudd; thanks alot

[ericsbrother]

So no NTK for the ones issued in aug/1st sept.

 

 

They will be non-compliant if they ever arrive so the next question is does

SCS include them in their demands from you as they appear to?

 

 

I suspect that with such sloppy timings they have actually given up trying to use the law to collect

and are now relying on a letterhead from a dca dressed up as a solicitor.

 

 

You may well find that no DVLA keeper details requests were made so they are then not compliant witht he law for that.

 

I am still betting on the NTK's being not compliant either just to go for the full set of idiocy on their part.

[justremaincalm]

Dear Ericsbrother

 

 

1. Have you been able to view the excel sheet I uploaded on post #50. It details every PCN, and which ones an NTK has been given for and it also indicates which have been mentioned in the SCS letter.

 

 

2. In reply to your Q, I have had NTKs for July, August only. The SCS letter however, only has the JULY ones in it. I suspect I will at some point recived another SCS for the august ones.

 

IMPORTANT NOTICE

Dear All

 

I have provided a very detailed summary of my case. I feel the for those visitng for first time the number of posts could have confused the issue.

 

The summary is attached. I have labelled the points with numbers.

 

Please Please download it. It reads well. If you have time scrutinise it/ criticise it.

 

I think from now on it would be best to reply with reference to the points I have mentioned in this attachment.

 

[renegadeimp]

O...k. Have you even taken the advice in this thread on board yet momal?

 

Something isn't sitting quite right here

[justremaincalm]

Dear Renegadeimp

 

 

Thanks

 

 

I only started posted this thread on 27/10/15 in the evening. Prior to that I wasn't really aware, so I may have sent some stupid letters off that I shouldnt have done.

 

 

Since staring this thread I have followed the advice by emailing DVLA. Ive been advised to ignore any more letters from UKPC/or small claims solicitors, which so far I have done.

 

 

I have not intended deliberately to ignore any advice. My messages may not be very clear but Im worried a lot cause there over £3000 at stake and I cant think straight. that's why I provided the summary in post #64.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Please appreciate what Im going through and I do appreciate any support.

 

 

Thankyou

[steampowered]

It is worth having a read of my sticky on this at http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?395511-Received-Court-Papers-From-A-Private-parking-Speculative-invoice-How-To-Deal-With-It-HERE*** to see if that gives you any get outs.

 

Is there clear signage providing for a penalty charge to be issued? How does the sign describe the penalty - as a penalty charge or as a contractual payment?

 

Don't be concerned about going away at Christmas. Even if court proceedings were issued there is no way that the hearing would be held this side of Christmas. The process involves UKPC filing a claim, you then have 14+5 days to respond, you then have 14 days to file a defence, then both sides must file a a 'directions questionnaire' where you have the opportunity to state dates you cannot attend a hearing, then the hearing would normally be at least a month after that.

 

If you do not notify UKPC of your new address, they might issue a claim against you at your old address. This would ultimately result in a 'default judgment' because you would not be able to enter a defence if you do not know about the claim. The default judgment could not be enforced if UKPC do not know about your new address, but it could ruin your credit rating because CCJs which are not paid within 28 days of the court issuing a judgment go on your credit report for 6 years.

 

If you do not tell UKPC your new address, the court probably would not let you set aside a default judgment later. Therefore I think it is safer to notify UKPC of your new address in writing and keep a copy - so that you can prove they knew about the new address if they issue a claim at your old address.

[justremaincalm]

Thanks

 

Where I live is a "close" or cul-de- sac.

I turn right into the private road belonging to the flats.

At the entrance of this private road is a signage on a short stand reading:

PARKING FOR RESIDENTS ONLY BEYOND THIS POINT.

ANYONE NOT PARKING IN A SPACE WILL BE FINED. PARKING CONTROL IN OPERATION AT ALL TIMES

 

Once gone past this sign, Im in private land.

There are bays with flat numbers on each.

There are spaces which have no markings.

 

 

On the walls there are two signage post from UKPC.

One reads "Private Land. Permit holders only. See notices in car park for conditions".

It has the letter P in large font.

 

 

The other reads " NO UNAUTHORISED PARKING. TERMS OF PARKING APPLY AT ALL TIMES.

The land is private property and parking control is managed by UKPC.

 

 

Failure to comply with the following at any time will result in a £90 parking charge

( reduced to 50 within 14 days) issued to the vehicles driver.

 

 

There is a drawing with a car in between two lines and next to it says

all vehicles must be parked only within marked bays.

 

 

In the even that a parking charge remains unpaid.etc........DVLA for RK details.

Unpaid parking charges will be passed onto our debt recovery agent at which point an additional charge of £60 will apply".

 

Im rading your link to your thread and will see which will apply to my case. thank you

[citizenB]

momal, further to our email exchange - I would take on board the advice given by steampowered.

 

I can understand that you are scared of doing the wrong thing and also worried about upsetting those who have given advice. I cant really offer any advice because this area is outside of my knowledge.

 

I would hope that those who have given advice and are perhaps a little peeved that you might have ignored the advice given, will cut you some slack and understand that there is a large sum involved and you are genuinely grateful for the advice.

 

At the end of the day though, any decisions made need to be your decisions.

[justremaincalm]

momal, further to our email exchange - I would take on board the advice given by steampowered.

 

 

Thanks Citizen B

 

 

Thanks for being so understanding. I truly appreciate it

 

 

Momal

 

So no NTK for the ones issued in aug/1st sept. They will be non-compliant if they ever arrive so the next question is does SCS include them in their demands from you as they appear to? I suspect that with such sloppy timings they have actually given up trying to use the law to collect and are now relying on a letterhead from a dca dressed up as a solicitor. You may well find that no DVLA keeper details requests were made so they are then not compliant witht he law for that.

I am still betting on the NTK's being not compliant either just to go for the full set of idiocy on their part.

 

 

I have received NTK for August 2015 but not September.

I have received letter before action ( LBA) for the July ones from small claims solicitors. They gave me 14 days to reply but the date for that expired . Instead , before I knew about this forum, and in a state of panic, I called the UKPC by phone and subsequently got a letter from their legal advisor saying they wont follow up their LBA with the issuance of a claim for a further 7 days to allow me to contact them with my proposal. The 7 days expire on 6/11/2015.

 

 

I am awaiting DVLA which will take another 2 weeks. My worry remains: do I still ignore the 7 day deadline or respond. I don't wanna sound as if Im going against advice, but if they really do decide to go ahead and take proper legal action, the judge may criticise me for failing to engage. So they main immediate question is how to respond to the legal advisors letter. By the way he sent it by recorded delivery and I signed for it.

 

 

Thanks

 

I googled small claims solicitors. they are part of LPC law. On the Law society site, under find a solicitor, if you do a pro search and enter LPC law limited , it is there and they have 19 solicitors working for them. So when small claims solicitors say they are a trading name for LPC law, and their registered address matches that found on the law society, shouldn't I take their letters seriously, especially if they mention that the letter is considered letter before action?

 

 

The link to the search on the law society is http://solicitors.lawsociety.org.uk/search/results?Name=Lpc+Law+Limited&Type=0&IncludeNlsp=True&Pro=True

[steampowered]

You have three options:

1) Don't respond

2) Respond with a settlement offer

3) Respond saying that you do not believe any money is owed

 

These are all legitimate courses of action. I personally would not get too stressed about the 7 day timeline. This is an artificial timeline and there are no real consequences for missing it. Judges are rarely interested in pre-action letter tennis, as it is not the role of the judge to say who has acted more reasonably - the judge only decides whether or not money is owed.

 

If choosing option 3 you can legitimately say you do not feel that any money is owed because:

1) You had the right to park / complied with the conditions of parking (if this is applied)

2) The amount claimed is a penalty and therefore unenforceable - as clearly referred to on the signage

3) The landowner is the proper claimant and no authority has been demonstrated for the landowner to bring a claim

 

None of those arguments are watertight, but they certainly give you enough to defend.

[justremaincalm]

Thanks a lot steampowered

 

I can choose option one,

but a bit worried that if it does to court I may be told I wasn't cooperative/ in line with practise direction on pre-action conduct

 

Choosing option 2

at the minute is not something I thought about.

Theres a car which has been parking there in the same spot like myself for at least 6 months but they have never been issued with a pcn.

I just feel its unfair that I have to end up paying a fine or settling it when its clear the other car is getting away with it.

can the UKP do that? its not fair

 

if I do choose option 3,

 

who shall I write to, SCS or UKPC, given that UKPC wrote to me saying "we will not follow up their letter before action

with issuance of a claim for a further 7 days to allow me to contact them with my proposal".

 

In terms of the arguments:

 

1. I live there and its private land but the signage does say "all vehicles must be parked only within marked bays" and I hadn't.

in addition I didn't have a permit displayed.

However, I do live there. strictly, im not compliant

 

2. The court of appeal in beavis v parking eye said that the £85 was neither unonsciuble or extravagant,

which implies its reasonable, so is it still a penalty?

 

3. im assuming the management company and UKPC have a contract.

ive asked the management company for a copy to see who the landowner is

[dx100uk]

may...

doesn't say will anywhere.

 

 

option 1 ignore

 

 

dx

[steampowered]

I can choose option one, but a bit worried that if it does to court I may be told I wasn't cooperative/ in line with practise direction on pre-action conduct

I wouldn't worry too much about this. In practice the protocol on pre-action conduct is pretty toothless and there are no real consequences for failing to comply. My experience is that judges are not interested in pre-litigation letter exchanges, particularly in small claims.

 

There is in theory a risk of being ordered to pay legal costs (which don't normally apply in small claims) if you are found to have behaved unreasonably, but this is very rare and is typically used as a sanction for failing to comply with the court process while court proceedings are live.

 

If you are worried about this, then take Option 3. Just a very short letter saying you do not believe money is owed would be enough.

 

Choosing option 2 at the minute is not something I thought about. Theres a car which has been parking there in the same spot like myself for at least 6 months but they have never been issued with a pcn. I just feel its unfair that I have to end up paying a fine or settling it when its clear the other car is getting away with it. can the UKP do that? its not fair

This does sound unfair, but I would suggest is not the most important part of your case.

 

if I do choose option 3,

 

who shall I write to, SCS or UKPC, given that UKPC wrote to me saying "we will not follow up their letter before action with issuance of a claim for a further 7 days to allow me to contact them with my proposal".

I'm not sure. The letter should be addressed to the person who is threatening to sue you, and it should be a response to their 'letter before claim'. If you have only received a letter before claim from UKPC, then address the response to UKPC.

 

In terms of the arguments:

1. I live there and its private land but the signage does say "all vehicles must be parked only within marked bays" and I hadn't. in addition I didn't have a permit displayed. However, I do live there. strictly, im not compliant

2. The court of appeal in beavis v parking eye said that the £85 was neither unonsciuble or extravagant, which implies its reasonable, so is it still a penalty?

3. im assuming the management company and UKPC have a contract. ive asked the management company for a copy to see who the landowner is

1. Understood. In that case, if a claim is issued, you will simply have to put UKPC to proof.

 

2. Parking Eye v Beavis is indeed damaging to the penalty argument. I think there is a very high chance that the decision in Parking Eye v Beavis will be upheld by the Supreme Court when the result of the appeal comes out in the near future.

 

The decision in Parking Eye v Beavis says that a parking charge may be enforced if it is held to be 'commercially justified' amount which is not 'manifestly excessive'. This is a fact specific analysis which depends on the individual circumstances.

 

The Parking Eye v Beavis decision concerned a supermarket car park where there was a very clear justification for stopping people from overstaying in order to free the spaces up for other customers. I would suggest that a similar sum in a residential area, particularly where one person gets hit by multiple charges, is much less justifiable and is manifestly excessive, and should therefore be seen as a penalty.

 

3. Yes, that is the correct request to make. You are unlikely to get a copy of the contract but you should certainly, if a claim is issued, be putting UKPC to proof as to their standing to make a claim on behalf of the landowner.

 

Despite the above I don't think there is merit in getting into letter tennis. UKPC are not going to write you a letter saying that they will withdraw a claim. The most you can hope for is that they sit on it and decide not to issue a claim. If you do want to write to UKPC just briefly say that you do not believe their claim is valid or legally enforceable, and that you will defend court proceedings if issued.

[ericsbrother]

It doesnt matter what the signage says as it doesnt apply to you.

 

 

The situation you are in is the same as the following:

- I own a house and put it up for sale through an estate agent.

The estate agent puts up signs on my property to say no parking so the viewers dont plonk their cars on my drive.

I park on my drive and the estate agents tell me I am in breach of their sign and have to pay them.

 

I have what is called supremacy of contract,

I own the place and they cant tell me what to do.

The signage is for others to consider, not me.

 

 

By writing to them in any manner other than to tell them to get lost as you have these rights is dangerous

as it will encourage them to think you are going to pay up with a bit more pressure

 

 

so your response should be that nothing is owed to you or anyone you represent

as my tenancy give me the rights of the leasholder and that is supreme to your contract with the managing agents.

 

 

Any claim will be vigourously defended and a claim harassment as a criminal act and civil tort may be considered

should you continue to write to me.

(in any case, the property co may be freeholder but they are acting in the capacity as the managing agents

and can be booted out of that role any time so they have no extra rights to sign anything

 

 

Once you have sent your letter denying any debt get on to the DVLA and get the complaints in

Forget fairness and niceeties, make them know you arent going to be mugged so be as rude as you like.

[steampowered]

In the UK, you cannot 'own' a flat. The land and buildings are owned by the freeholder. The freeholder grants a long lease (e.g. 99 year lease) to people who wish to purchase a flat. This lease may be accompanied by a separate contractual right (known as a licence) to use communal areas of the estate. If that person wishes to rent the place out, he can grant a sub-lease. In this case it sounds like the Op holds a sub-lease.

 

Typically, the only person to own the residential estate (including street parking) will be the freeholder. These communal areas will not be part of the lease. The Op and his landlord probably don't actually 'own' the parking space.