Migrant crisis - solutions ?

[Conniff]

Say what you feel, but to say France gives more but we should allow them to come here need an explanation. France is not war torn so why not settle there ?

[citizenB]

It was meant to be insulting to give a dose of reality on the subject that we are talking of human beings, not cattle

 

 

Correct, we are talking about people and not cattle. Intelligent people, who (as estellyn has pointed out) have access to the wider world via internet, mobile communications, etc. Interesting that almost to a child, those people rescued from the sinking boats in international waters were very upset when their mobile phones and ipads were taken from them so they couldn't communicate with others who were also planning to enter leaking boats and follow them !!

 

We are talking about intelligent people who can plot and plan to travel 1000's of miles to a country so far removed from their own shores.. so definitely not cattle who only migrate along the historical paths set out by their ancestors.

 

Interesting that when they were colonies of whichever country - they wanted those who headed the colonies OUT of THEIR countries, they wanted their independence. Then when they realised they couldn't make it on their own started to demand from the wider world.

 

When they don't get what they want and end up where they want to, they then turn on the very people who give them sanctuary. They don't want to integrate into the societies they fought so hard to get to - they want their hosts to change.

 

There will be those who do need genuine sanctuary and the UK has always been happy to provide that sanctuary - but this mass migration for economic purposes is simply not sustainable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they want better lives and conditions, why do they not fight for them in their own countries rather than head towards the very same people they kicked out!

[obiter dictum]

I totally agree on stopping economic illegal immigration from outside the EU and only allowing confirmed asylum applications.

 

I fully support Migration of EU citizens within the 28 member states

 

If they want better living conditions we should stop bombing and destroying their own infrastructure so they have no reason to leave there host country and migrate to another

[estellyn]

Say what you feel, but to say France gives more but we should allow them to come here need an explanation. France is not war torn so why not settle there ?

 

I think the difficulty is that the people are supposed to claim asylum in the first country they come to in the EU, but one of three things happen:

 

1) They claim asylum, are refused, with a letter, there is no system to ensure that person leaves the country, just a direction to leave within one month, so they then decide to try to come into the UK to work illegally.

 

2) They don't follow through with the asylum procedure in France and instead try and make for the UK, as it's their preferred destination, or things aren't working out while waiting for an asylum decision in France and they want to try their luck in the UK.

 

3) They've travelled into France bypassing border control on the way to the UK.

 

The more informed migrants understand that they are supposed to claim asylum in the first 'safe' country they come to and that if their details are recorded in a different country (for instance France) then they won't be accepted for asylum in the UK. Some will have family here or friends, some just might be attracted by the culture or a familiar language.

 

As I said before, if I lived in a country with truly awful conditions, I would do anything I could to make a better life for my family. But on the other side, there are rules in place to try and ensure that countries take asylum responsibilities equally. It would be nice to be able to accept anyone in, but we don't have the resources.

 

I also think that the system of ensuring applicants refused asylum are deported in a timely manner, needs work, as presently it is all too easy to disappear and work illegally.

 

I feel nothing but empathy for those trying to leave devastating poverty or terrible conditions, crime, war, disease etc. I do think Western countries need to take a big responsibility for problems in a lot of these countries, we've messed around in their culture, their politics and raided their resources.

 

And to those saying they should fight back in their own countries, it's not so easy - when you're poor, sick, hungry, victim of crime or gangs or government, beaten down so much you can barely get off of the ground in the morning - I doubt any of us would be much able to fight back in that situation.

[estellyn]

 

Interesting that when they were colonies of whichever country - they wanted those who headed the colonies OUT of THEIR countries, they wanted their independence. Then when they realised they couldn't make it on their own started to demand from the wider world.

 

https://www.foreignaffairs.com/reviews/review-essay/2015-06-16/plunder-africa

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/mar/25/an-immoral-plundering-of-other-countries-intellectual-resources

 

http://www.greenpeace.org/eu-unit/en/Photos/photosvideo/Apr---Jun/African-voices-in-Brussels/

 

There are reasons countries might be struggling!

 

 

When they don't get what they want and end up where they want to, they then turn on the very people who give them sanctuary. They don't want to integrate into the societies they fought so hard to get to - they want their hosts to change.

 

 

Who are 'they'? Where do you get the idea that 'they' want their hosts to change? And seriously, the British are the last people who should be questioning others not wanting to integrate - we who are famed for going around the world expecting to be able to speak English and get English food. Ever been to spain? Whole areas have been taken over by ex-pats with English food and products easily available.

 

Pointing to a different group of people and attributing negative characteristics to the whole group is called prejudice - be careful of that, it's not a nice thing.

[f16]

Correct, we are talking about people and not cattle. Intelligent people, who (as estellyn has pointed out) have access to the wider world via internet, mobile communications, etc. Interesting that almost to a child, those people rescued from the sinking boats in international waters were very upset when their mobile phones and ipads were taken from them so they couldn't communicate with others who were also planning to enter leaking boats and follow them !!

 

We are talking about intelligent people who can plot and plan to travel 1000's of miles to a country so far removed from their own shores.. so definitely not cattle who only migrate along the historical paths set out by their ancestors.

 

Interesting that when they were colonies of whichever country - they wanted those who headed the colonies OUT of THEIR countries, they wanted their independence. Then when they realised they couldn't make it on their own started to demand from the wider world.

 

When they don't get what they want and end up where they want to, they then turn on the very people who give them sanctuary. They don't want to integrate into the societies they fought so hard to get to - they want their hosts to change.

 

There will be those who do need genuine sanctuary and the UK has always been happy to provide that sanctuary - but this mass migration for economic purposes is simply not sustainable.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If they want better lives and conditions, why do they not fight for them in their own countries rather than head towards the very same people they kicked out!

 

100% with that post

[citizenB]

 

 

 

Who are 'they'? Where do you get the idea that 'they' want their hosts to change? And seriously, the British are the last people who should be questioning others not wanting to integrate - we who are famed for going around the world expecting to be able to speak English and get English food. Ever been to spain? Whole areas have been taken over by ex-pats with English food and products easily available.

 

Pointing to a different group of people and attributing negative characteristics to the whole group is called prejudice - be careful of that, it's not a nice thing.

 

"They" being those people who are making their way to this country.

[citizenB]

 

 

Who are 'they'? Where do you get the idea that 'they' want their hosts to change? And seriously, the British are the last people who should be questioning others not wanting to integrate - we who are famed for going around the world expecting to be able to speak English and get English food. Ever been to spain? Whole areas have been taken over by ex-pats with English food and products easily available.

 

Pointing to a different group of people and attributing negative characteristics to the whole group is called prejudice - be careful of that, it's not a nice thing.

 

No, I have never been to Spain - I have been to France and Greece.

 

Greece was no different to your portrayal of Spain and I was ashamed to see the behaviour of some English tourists.

The French people I met pretty much hate the British as part of their birth right and weren't shy about letting you know this.

 

As for migrants not wanting to integrate - I am not being blinded by sensational press releases when I consider that there are many who wish to recreate their own Countries in the UK. They want separate societies. I strongly object to women wearing full face veil (they can do and wear what they like in their own homes. Out in public though, it should not be allowed. I strongly object to Sharia law being insinuated into England. I strongly object to the way women are treated as though they were simply possessions. This might be how it is done in their home countries, but not in England.

 

There is a division in the UK that has allowed hateful groups to flourish - English National Defence League, British National Party.

 

Some migrants have been here for years, but still don't speak English.

[BazzaS]

I strongly object to women wearing full face veil (they can do and wear what they like in their own homes. Out in public though, it should not be allowed. I strongly object to Sharia law being insinuated into England. I strongly object to the way women are treated as though they were simply possessions.

 

Therein lies the rub.

 

I'm against women being forced to wear (or not wear) any style of clothing (provided public decency is maintained)

 

I don't believe any style of clothing often associated with Islam or Middle Eastern culture is indecent.

 

I abhor the situation where women are forced to wear the chaddor, niqab, burkha or any particular covering.

 

I support the RIGHT of any woman to wear those IF she CHOOSES (if you are against the rights of women being suppressed how can you want, at the same time, to suppress one of those rights).

I can't see how people can say "they must have the right to wear jeans" but at the same time say "they mustn't be allowed to wear a burkha".

 

Have the right to choose to wear a burkha : absolutely. FORCED to wear a burkha : no.

If you see someone in a burkha - how do you tell the difference?, though.

[obiter dictum]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]58748[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]58747[/ATTACH]

[Conniff]

I think covering the face should be banned as in France. In normal times I see no problem if that's what they want but in todays climate, it has been used for men to hide under and leave us all prone to mischief, and that includes hoodies.

[Old Cogger]

economic migrants all of them= NOW I had problems getting my own wife & daughter into the UK from the far east and we were cosha! in late 80s early 90s, the UK regime here/embassy there tried to make out wife was an economic migrant - daughter they would not mention, immigration cases later after 3 years I got them here, all recorded via the BBC/ITV and stories in Woman magazine etc, they are doing it now against their own citizens, yet let these economic migrants in??????????????????? well they all look fit/well get them to change their own country instead of sponging on others, they land in France etc their problem not ours, we have our own ex forces etc on the streets , not being kept by welfare, enough said.

[citizenB]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]58748[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]58747[/ATTACH]

 

I have no problem with women wearing a head scarf.. CWK. What I have a problem with is them wearing a full face mask !!

[obiter dictum]

What difference is there between a citizen of the United Kingdom and homeless, and an Ex-Forces homeless and on the streets??

 

For the record i am Ex- Green Jackets and was given no support when i left, I ended up spending three months living under Waterloo Bridge in the 1980s

 

Is my life worth more as a citizen in civvy street simply because i served in the armed services over another National??

[Old Cogger]

What difference is there between a citizen of the United Kingdom and homeless, and an Ex-Forces homeless and on the streets??

 

For the record i am Ex- Green Jackets and was given no support when i left, I ended up spending three months living under Waterloo Bridge in the 1980s

 

Is my life worth more as a citizen in civvy street simply because i served in the armed services over another UK National??

 

they are all the same -- I left the forces in late 60s so no inference there, but the point is priorities by governments need looking at, their own citizens 1st, The Tory's have for decades sprouted on about UK Citizens rights of abode and their immediate families, in as much they were the last one of two to sign the UN Charter for the rights of family unity in early 90s, yet they are so called dealing with Economic Migrants .

[obiter dictum]

I only wish people will attack the Government with such vitriol over welfare reforms such as sanctions etc before the usual Migrant Bashing. These immigrants/Migrants are not the problem with UK infrastructure, it is the executive year in year out not providing adequate funding for these essential services.

 

People need to get their priorities in order as to what is really happening in the UK at this moment. First it was the press getting us to demonise people claiming government assistance as "Work Shy Scroungers" Then default to immigrant bashing.

 

“If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing.”

 

 

Malcolm-X

[citizenB]

And the more money spent on preventing migrants entering the country illegally - or looking after the 629 unaccompanied children who landed in Dover, will be less spent on essential services in this country, capquest!! Or had you missed that point !

[obiter dictum]

Then what is to be done with the 629 unaccompanied children,

 

Throw them back into the English Channel??

 

Using children as a persuasion source is simply unacceptable

 

What is needed are more border agency staff. Since April last year that figure has been reduced by a further 2 thousand staff out of a total 8.5 thousand since 2010

 

Who again is to blame, The executive not putting in the infrastructure to deal with this mess, or the migrant?

 

Or have we forgotten the MPs 11% pay rise??

 

How i hate this NIMBY attitude, the west caused this mess, we just cannot walk away and accept no responsibility like in Afghanistan and Iraq

[Conniff]

Then what is to be done with the 629 unaccompanied children,

 

Throw them back into the English Channel?? You can't 'back' something if it didn't come from there. Throwing back or returning would mean to France not the English channel.

 

Using children as a persuasion source is simply unacceptable

 

What is needed are more border agency staff. Since April last year that figure has been reduced by a further 2 thousand staff out of a total 8.5 thousand since 2010

 

Who again is to blame, The executive not putting in the infrastructure to deal with this mess, or the migrant? That's obvious Labour and Gordon Brown, it is he who signed away our border rights (leading to the 'open borders' ruling) after refusing to give us the referendum we were promised.

 

Or have we forgotten the MPs 11% pay rise??

 

How i hate this NIMBY attitude, the west caused this mess, we just cannot walk away and accept no responsibility like in Afghanistan and Iraq

 

It's always Labours fault.

[obiter dictum]

The reduction of 8.5 thousand border agency staff started when the conservatives took control in 2010.

 

They have had 5 years to sort this issue out since Sangatte, but chose to do nothing

 

Blaming the previous administration is typical in evading responsibility for the present executives total inertia in dealing with this. As usual head in the sand mentality

 

And i was under the impression the Open Borders was the Treaty Of Rome 1957, Then free movement of people Ratified by Thatcher 1987 and the Major Governments 1992 as one of the four freedoms of the EU?

 

Then again what you fail to mention in your hatred of the EU is that these immigrants are not EU Nationals for which the open border rules apply, so by definition are illegals

 

Crikey, people are starting to emulate Michael Gove in trying to rewrite history to support their prejudice

[Conniff]

More like not taking responsibility for something your beloved government started.

[obiter dictum]

What Government??

 

What makes you think i support labour??

 

I treat all political parties with equal contempt

 

And please stop trying to evade the question with an erroneous counter argument

[estellyn]

Therein lies the rub.

 

I'm against women being forced to wear (or not wear) any style of clothing (provided public decency is maintained)

 

I don't believe any style of clothing often associated with Islam or Middle Eastern culture is indecent.

 

I abhor the situation where women are forced to wear the chaddor, niqab, burkha or any particular covering.

 

I support the RIGHT of any woman to wear those IF she CHOOSES (if you are against the rights of women being suppressed how can you want, at the same time, to suppress one of those rights).

I can't see how people can say "they must have the right to wear jeans" but at the same time say "they mustn't be allowed to wear a burkha".

 

Have the right to choose to wear a burkha : absolutely. FORCED to wear a burkha : no.

If you see someone in a burkha - how do you tell the difference?, though.

 

Totally agree. I worked with a woman who was muslim but used to dress totally western. After hatred and abuses towards muslims increased following 9/11 she decided to wear hijab (the head scarf) and become more devoted to her religion in response to the repeated attacks on her religion, which she completely believed in. There was no one telling her what she had to wear, it was her choice. She also told me of others who went further and decided to wear burkha or niqab for the same reasons.

 

I don't agree with anyone being forced to cover up, but then I'm yet to meet anyone like that. In the course of advice work, I've met many people of different religions. I'm very curious about people's beliefs and often ask questions. I've never met a muslim who minds answering - in fact they're often eager and happy to share how they feel about their religion and about their culture (not necessarily the same thing). They consider western women dress immodestly and that it's not for them, and why the hell should we try and legislate what someone can believe or wear?

 

It's not up to us to try and change another culture - there will be natural change for most families over the generations, first generation immigrants have the hardest time fitting in, second generation are still somewhat influenced by parents, third generation much more integrated and so on. Why does everyone feel everything should happen now, instantly? Requiring English for citizenship is a very good thing though.

 

Personally, subject to western culture and expectations and ideals of beauty and body size, and when working, required to dress professionally, expected to wear makeup and have nice hair - I feel huge pressure to conform to OUR culture's expectations of me as a woman. Whatever culture we're a member of, there is huge pressure to conform. It would be great sometimes to just have the option of just covering up and not having to have people look, and judge, assess, covet, abhor. Sure I have the option of wearing a different culture's dress, but sadly my culture so strongly disapproves, that I would never even go there - good grief, my family would be horrified and hugely disapproving, they might even think I was rejecting them and in response reject me. So think about it from the perspective of a woman from a culture where niqab is the accepted standard of dress - how easy would it be, or how hard to go against their culture? If western women feel the overwhelming need to conform, why do we so harshly judge first and second generation women who face the same pressures?

[Conniff]

Come on, you love Gordon, don't be afraid, you can tell us, nothing to be ashamed of in this day.

[obiter dictum]

I will now terminate my contribution to this debate

 

Making jokes out of peoples suffering or promoting political affiliations to support negative feelings on a subject matter is alien to me