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    • Post in Suing a parcel delivery company when you don't have a direct contract with them – third-party rights Copy of judgment available

      BankFodder posted a post in a topic,

      We have finally managed to obtain the transcript of this case.

      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

      One of the points that the judge made was that the customers contract with the broker specifically refers to the courier – and it is clear that the courier knows that they are acting for a third party. There is no need to name the third party. They just have to be recognisably part of a class of person – such as a sender or a recipient of the parcel.

      Please note that a recent case against UPS failed on exactly the same issue with the judge held that the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 did not apply.

      We will be getting that transcript very soon. We will look at it and we will understand how the judge made such catastrophic mistakes. It was a very poor judgement.
      We will be recommending that people do include this adverse judgement in their bundle so that when they go to county court the judge will see both sides and see the arguments against this adverse judgement.
      Also, we will be to demonstrate to the judge that we are fair-minded and that we don't mind bringing everything to the attention of the judge even if it is against our own interests.
      This is good ethical practice.

      It would be very nice if the parcel delivery companies – including EVRi – practised this kind of thing as well.

       

      OT APPROVED, 365MC637, FAROOQ, EVRi, 12.07.23 (BRENT) - J v4.pdf
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Parcel delivery insurance is prohibited under section 57 – Consumer Rights Act – Read about It Here and in The Times.

HFO CAPITAL/services/turnbull CCJ

melmumof3

By melmumof3
in M&S Cards

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DonkeyB

DonkeyB

Posted
Posted

Leave to appeal was granted, unfortunately.

 

Just dissecting it with Mel, and will get back to you all with some detail.

 

Please bear in mind that we may now have to keep some critical issues off the forum to protect Mel's case. Today was quite upsetting for her, so please be patient!

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vjohn82

vjohn82

Posted
Posted

I have spoken to Mel about this and can give some brief details on what has occurred.

 

1. This was a Directions Hearing for the appeal and NOT a Permission to Appeal Hearing.

 

The Judge was not hostile to the extent that he disagreed with evidence from Mel or any of the Witness Statements she has been helped with; the Judge was hostile to the fact that Mel attempted to ask questions that should have been reserved for the appeal hearing.

 

This is an important clarification to make because the Judge was not there to rule on anything.

 

2. The Judge appears to have made an order allowing further evidence to be submitted by HFO Services. However, this order has been made with the condition of "non-disclosure". The documents which they wish to submit are, apparently, a number of "intra-group agreements".

 

3. What Mel should have asked for in his hearing was the Deed of Assignment from the OC to the assignee; I am unsure at this stage of the process for demanding this document be disclosed but I am sure that it can be requested under some sort of CPR for disclosure.

 

4. Mel was worried at first about the hearing and its outcome but I have tried to alleviate those worries; the case is still VERY sound and the appeal offers the opportunity for the Affidavit I wrote to be referred to in court which completely destroys any argument HFO Services want to make about the assignment; it demonstrates their case to be disingenuous.

 

That's all I can offer for now people... lots of reasons to be very hopeful.

 

I might also add that they sent a barrister to represent the Claimant who goes by the name of Helen Turnbull. Not heard of her before but the only thing she appears to have "won" is the right for the next set of evidence to be confidential; big deal... errrr not.

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gh2008

gh2008

Posted
Posted

This may have been discussed before - or it may just be too controversial

 

Q. Is there a time where the contents of a thread become so sensitive that it is better to take that thread into a 'closed group' where it can be discussed 'in relative confidence' and then once settled the thread can be reopened for reference.

 

I realise that things can be discussed by email or pm, but that is cumbersome and yes you could go to a 3rd party private forum/conference provider, but then the valuable resource of the thoughts and processes would be lost.

If you find my advice helpful - please click on my scales

<<<<<< - they're over there!

Well, it's a funny black star now ...

The small print - any advice I give is freely given on the understanding that I am a layman and am not legally qualified in anyway.

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vjohn82

vjohn82

Posted
Posted
Leave to appeal was granted, unfortunately

 

It appears leave for appeal was granted some time ago DB... either a cock up in paperwork or something else has happened. This was just a directions hearing for the appeal.

 

Bizarre but that's what we are left with. I would have thought permission to appeal would have had a hearing? But hey, still good news. No rejection of Mel's Witness Statement and no rejection of the affidavit :D

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vjohn82

vjohn82

Posted
Posted
What happened to the notion that appeals are based on point of law and no new evidence is permitted.

 

I was under the impression that no new evidence can be submitted but I cannot find anything in the CPR that forbids it as long as the evidence was inferred in the original hearing.

 

I suspect the barrister has pulled a rabbit out of the hat and disputed the CP2 document as being irrelevant and is thus prepared to reveal the "true" documents to the court. Note however that they want this to be done under a "confidentiality clause"... they have something to hide I'm sure otherwise they would not need to refer to it.

 

However, Mel is entitled to either legal representation or assistance from a friend (either family member/association/pro bono rep/cab etc) in the course of the proceedings. Therefore the documents, while privileged, can be read by persons seeking to assist Mel.

 

The Judge will have to clarify the restriction of the clause in the order he makes simply so Mel knows what position she is in. I suspect that it will simply restrict Mel to posting the document on the forum.

 

Time for some heavy work and maybe some heavyweight representation for Mel!

 

We have the bones... need the meat!

 

Representation would be wise for the appeal... but I think a well seasoned CAGGER with experience of hearings might be tempted to go along in a representative capacity to ensure that justice prevails ;-)

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DonkeyB

DonkeyB

Posted
Posted

Mel, I hope you're feeling better about all this now. It can be a pain (and painful), but your evidence is still solid. All they have done is get an appeal in relation to the assignment - the Carey case should be a killer.

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humbleman

humbleman

Posted
Posted
. Note however that they want this to be done under a "confidentiality clause"... they have something to hide I'm sure otherwise they would not need to refer to it.

 

 

I suspect this might be to do with the revenue, in case they find out then, they might get clobbered for creative accounting. I am not for a second doubting that HFO have not complied with the necessary statutory obligations.

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vjohn82

vjohn82

Posted
Posted
Wonder if they're sisters, Alice and Helen? Both went to Oxford...

 

If so, and not suggesting there is a relationship, if indeed this is who attended, but if...

 

...would she need to declare any conflict of interest?

 

No real information on her DB... shame that they ALL can't have their pictures on display like Alasdair Turnbull's on the Validor site

 

http://validorcapital.com/managementteamvalidor.html

 

I like to call it... "The Freak Show" mwahhahahahaaa

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patrickq1

patrickq1

Posted
Posted (edited)

dont worry mel GOOD THINGS COME TO THOSE WHO WAIT just bide your time by the time alice and helena of the droids get into the courtroom they will have to answer a load of questions....

Edited by patrickq1
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Rhia

Rhia

Posted
Posted
3. What Mel should have asked for in his hearing was the Deed of Assignment from the OC to the assignee; I am unsure at this stage of the process for demanding this document be disclosed but I am sure that it can be requested under some sort of CPR for disclosure.

 

Yes! Yes! Yes! I think I have urged this before. If you read my Cabot thread this is what saw them off. MBNA assigned their debt to Ireland and it is a "tax efficiency" i.e [problem]. This knowledge has also stuffed Cabot in at least three cases by CAGers whereby each wrote an witness statement for the other.

 

You can request it under CPR18.

 

Ireland is simply offshore and so it has not been correctly assigned to the UK and under UK law. And WTF is going on with HFOs companies they're up and down like a tart's drawers? This is one mighty dodgy set up and OFT and I think HM Customs and Excise would take a very lively interest in them.

As for the lady barrister who won the "mooting" prize look girl I know you have to make a living but surely there are more appetising clients to empower with your top class education.

 

Mel hang on in there you are doing very well.

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MandM

MandM

Posted
Posted
Yes! Yes! Yes! I think I have urged this before. If you read my Cabot thread this is what saw them off. MBNA assigned their debt to Ireland and it is a "tax efficiency" i.e [problem]. This knowledge has also stuffed Cabot in at least three cases by CAGers whereby each wrote an witness statement for the other.

 

 

 

Hi Rhia, you have a few Cabot threads. Can you pop a link up.

 

Thanks,

 

M

 

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DonkeyB

DonkeyB

Posted
Posted
As for the lady barrister who won the "mooting" prize look girl I know you have to make a living but surely there are more appetising clients to empower with your top class education.

 

... but there's a possibility, given the surname, that blood is thicker than water... ;)

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