Sent to see Occ Health advisor, in my own free time not even on the sick, never had been

[Gladysnotme]

Hi all, wondering if some-one can advise on this.

 

Last year after a catalogue of errors and muddles with my pay and holidays etc, something happened and I had a melt down on the phone to some-one in HR (sheers frustration at being fobbed off and not listened to). It took me by surprise..didn't realize stress had been building up, so I finished conversation saying something like..I'm going to see my doctor and if I am ill you (my employer- public sector) have made me ill. T

 

hat was on the 29th July 2014. I did go and see my doctor on the 1st August, (mainly to let them know the score) and continued to work as normal (part-time, evenings and weekends). I'd made it clear my job was not stressful it was all the management nonsense with my contracts, pay holidays etc that got me down and stressed , as I had to sort it all out in my free time in office hours..

 

Within a few days a letter arrived from the Occupational health service telling me to attend a meeting on Wednesday the 10th. The referral had been made on the 1st August. just two days after my meltdown on the phone with HR.

 

So, Several questions. (the referral was for stress).

 

a)are employers allowed to ambush some-one with OH like that out of the blue without even discussing the problem properly or formally even letting me know me I would be referred.

 

b) I wasn't even on the sick and had never been on the sick. Did they have to right to refer me, especially without asking?( I idid get sent a consent form, with the appointment letter, but that had warnings about how if I didn't go it might affect decisions my dept made about me. I was stressed, not thinking properly, signed it and agreed to go to the appointment but made it clear it was under duress.

 

c) The appointment was for a Wednesday 1.30, at a place about 8 miles away..in my free time plus I was expected to get there at my own expanse. As it happens I was afraid of driving in case I had a melt down again in the car (basically a high anxiety attack..sobbing not being able to breath etc.) . I asked for Time in lieu as I'd have to go on the bus,.., which would take ages. HR said no way but eventually relented and offered to pay for a taxi. Should they give me TIL as well as the taxi?

 

The OH report basically said I was fine, just having a normal reaction to intolerable management issues.

 

I continued to work for two months, while a review of the muddle with my holidays etc. was carried out. There is more but I'd like to see what people think about this lot first.

 

Many thanks

[BazzaS]

Hi all, wondering if some-one can advise on this.

 

Last year after a catalogue of errors and muddles with my pay and holidays etc, something happened and I had a melt down on the phone to some-one in HR (sheers frustration at being fobbed off and not listened to). It took me by surprise..didn't realize stress had been building up, so I finished conversation saying something like..I'm going to see my doctor and if I am ill you (my employer- public sector) have made me ill. T

 

hat was on the 29th July 2014. I did go and see my doctor on the 1st August, (mainly to let them know the score) and continued to work as normal (part-time, evenings and weekends). I'd made it clear my job was not stressful it was all the management nonsense with my contracts, pay holidays etc that got me down and stressed , as I had to sort it all out in my free time in office hours..

 

Within a few days a letter arrived from the Occupational health service telling me to attend a meeting on Wednesday the 10th. The referral had been made on the 1st August. just two days after my meltdown on the phone with HR.

 

So, Several questions. (the referral was for stress).

 

a)are employers allowed to ambush some-one with OH like that out of the blue without even discussing the problem properly or formally even letting me know me I would be referred.

 

b) I wasn't even on the sick and had never been on the sick. Did they have to right to refer me, especially without asking?( I idid get sent a consent form, with the appointment letter, but that had warnings about how if I didn't go it might affect decisions my dept made about me. I was stressed, not thinking properly, signed it and agreed to go to the appointment but made it clear it was under duress.

 

c) The appointment was for a Wednesday 1.30, at a place about 8 miles away..in my free time plus I was expected to get there at my own expanse. As it happens I was afraid of driving in case I had a melt down again in the car (basically a high anxiety attack..sobbing not being able to breath etc.) . I asked for Time in lieu as I'd have to go on the bus,.., which would take ages. HR said no way but eventually relented and offered to pay for a taxi. Should they give me TIL as well as the taxi?

 

The OH report basically said I was fine, just having a normal reaction to intolerable management issues.

 

I continued to work for two months, while a review of the muddle with my holidays etc. was carried out. There is more but I'd like to see what people think about this lot first.

 

Many thanks

 

"There is more but I'd like to see what people think about this lot first" : Fair enough, but I'm left wondering - what do you want? Will the "more" and "what you want" influence replies?

 

It is all well and good people saying what they think so far - but we only have part of the story and don't know your desired outcome(s) / goal(s), and what people think so far may well alter with these.

 

What do I think? (So far......)

You repeat that you haven't had time off, but clearly there was an incident (your "meltdown")

 

We don't have the details of the meltdown so can't tell if it might have been cause for a disciplinary, but even if it might have been they have decided to go down the "occupational health" rather than "disciplinary" routes.

 

You had your meltdown at work, speaking to a fellow employee. Clearly, then, this affected you at work, and I don't see how you can claim offering you Occupational Health support can be seen to be a bad thing or a breach of your rights.

 

It seems to me (based purely on what you have written, as we don't know each other personally) that you want to "have your cake and eat it".

 

You want to be able to have a meltdown at work but then seem to want work to ignore it and not offer support.

 

You then want people to discuss it with you rather than referring you to Occ Health. Yet, I could see how someone could post similar but then complain "and a manager insisted on discussing my personal medical problems with me. They aren't a HealthCare professional, there is nothing to stop them then discussing my problems with all and sundry, and they should have let Occ Health deal with it, as the appropriate response"

 

You want to tell HR work is making you ill, but then get annoyed when they refer you to the people who have expertise in assessing "illness at / from work"

 

If they didn't refer you to Occ Health : could you not then justifiably claim "I told them work was making me ill, and they didn't even refer me to Occ Health!" ?

 

you note that you haven't had time off sick. Tell me, if they did nothing until you actually went off sick, could you not then claim "they could / should have offered me support earlier!"

 

You want to tell work that you might have a "melt down" in your car - again, this suggests there was an issue, and it seems they are behaving responsibly by involving Occupational Health.

 

The issue may have be caused by their "management issues", and I'm offering no excuses for that.

However, I'm not sure you can complain about the HR/Occupational Health responses.

I think you are more likely to be able to make a successful complaint if they hadn't had acted as they have!

 

Returning to being able to offer useful advice rather than "my thoughts on what you have posted so far" :

 

What other relevant events have occurred (with "there is more")? What outcome do you want?

 

This probably seems blunt and not the "fluffy" response you may have wished for. Clearly if this happened to me I'd be deeply emotionally invested in it.

However, a blunt, non-emotional view is relevant, even if it isn't what you might want to hear.

 

I think you should target their bad behaviour (the management issues that led you to get stressed), over and above their appropriate response to your meltdown.

[Emmzzi]

I would like to know why you are asking this now, many months after the incident, before I reply. Clearly something else has happened.

[Gladysnotme]

Hi, yes other things did happen, but as they happened later they are irrelevant to my query. My meltdown ( tears and frustration, yes, I may have sworn but not at the person, more about the stupid situation I'd been put in because leave records weren't being kept properly (actually lost) .) It happened whilst spending more of my own free time trying to get answers from HR. But the point is I was clearly very stressed and up set. I was asking for clarification on something, didn't get a proper answer was given the third degree about what I had and hadn't done to resolve the issues (which went back 2 years on a permanent contract and 5 years with no contract at all! ) and I felt I had done everything possible to help people sort it all out) . When I looked at my employer's Attendance and Well being policy and the Health and Well being codes of the Data protection rules, stress is supposed to be handled very carefully. There is supposed to be a risk assessment to work out the balance between what my employers would gain from the intrusion of a medical assessment, and the impact on me of such an examination. Since I was not on the sick, I had simply said I was going to see my doctor plus HR knew exactly what had upset me (we'd been in communication about muddles with short pay, holiday allowances for months, I feel the OH appointment was not set up in my interest at all. My question was about what rights an employer has to make a person go, in their free time to attend an occupational health session, when they are not even on the sick. OH was not 'offered'

[BazzaS]

If you swore to (even if not "at) a colleague, be glad they have gone down the "occupational health" and not "disciplinary" routes. Or, is that what has happened since?

 

My question was about what rights an employer has to make a person go, in their free time to attend an occupational health session, when they are not even on the sick. OH was not 'offered'

 

Looks to me it was offered!

 

idid get sent a consent form, with the appointment letter, but that had warnings about how if I didn't go it might affect decisions my dept made about me

 

As you could have declined, it was offered.

 

No doubt you will say "Ah-hah! It was forced, what with them giving 'warnings about how if I didn't go it might affect decisions my dept made about me'l : But, it is only fair they give such a warning so that you know the possible effect of declining. You still had the choice. It was 'offered'.

 

Can you not yet see how you seem to have them "damned if they do, damned if they don't"?

 

If they don't offer : they are bad for not offering Occ Health.

If they Offer, don't warn you of the effect of offering and you decline : they then make a decision without Occ Health input, then you say "they didn't warn me of the consequences of declining!"

 

If they offer and warn you, you complain that you felt coerced into attending......

 

It appears that no matter what they do, someone might complain about it.

In the end, then, what will matter is:

A) What you are out to achieve (which you still haven't said)

B) What has happened since (ditto)

C) are their policies fair and reasonable, and have they abided by them (even if you don't like the way they offered Occ Health, did it breach their policy?)

 

There is supposed to be a risk assessment to work out the balance between what my employers would gain from the intrusion of a medical assessment, and the impact on me of such an examination.

Who does the policy say should make this risk assessment, and (if not a HCP) on what basis?

[Gladysnotme]

Hiya, don't think you are taking into account that I was very stressed, or even know much about stress by the sounds of it. People are not rational when they are stressed. However, the Health and safety guidelines on referrals for stress do take that into account..stressed people are vulnerable; some commit suicide over smaller things than feeling forced to get themselves to a strange place to go and talk to a total stranger. Also, yes, about risk assessment, as I understand it ..it's supposed to happen before the referral, the employee is supposed to be present and the 'option' of a referral discussed and offered. It's supposed to be a meeting to weigh up what the benefits of a referral might be against adding stress and pressure onto an already stressed employee. And yes, it's in our Company Attendance and Well being policy document.

 

 

I disagree with you, a referral sent 2 days after I said I was going to my doctor, and a letter shortly arriving on my doormat , without discussion or warning, with a bit stick of what woul dhappen if I didn't go, to a stressed person is not an 'offer' at all ...plus I wasn't on the sick plus it was in my free time i.e unpaid and originally intended to be at my own travel cost. You don't seem able to answer on those points. Some-one told me it has something to do with work time regulations etc., and I should have been given TIL for the appointment, but I don't know where to look for that bit of legislation. No-one I have spoken to has ever heard of someone being sent to OH, so quickly, (within 2 days), when they aren't even on the sick and in their free time ( I work part-time) . So it's not a regular situation, which is why I'm asking on this forum. The referral certainly wasn't out of concern for me or my safety or ability to work; as I'd told HR I was going to see my own GP for an opinion.

 

 

Also, handling stress carefully is not just down to company policy, the Data protection codes regarding referring people for medical examinations in the first place, especially for stress (I was sent to a clinical doctor) are quite clear about the care with which it should be done . The policy documents make it very clear it shouldn't be done willy nilly by anyone on a whimsy. It's intrusive..and there has to be good reason and some prospect of benefit all round. In this instance the people who sent me knew exactly what the problem was so no new input would come out of a OH referral. When HR got the report it was never mentioned again..ever nor was there any follow up from OH, but in the meantime some-one has seen sense and a meeting was arranged in which the issues causing my stress were discussed and a review started. So clearly the referral was a totally pointless exercise and served no purpose, just wasted my time and tax payers money, plus caused me a huge amount of totally avoidable stress (which is exactly what a risk assessment meeting is supposed to avoid). Regarding what I want out of it I want to see if any forum members have some useful input regarding where I stand with regard to complaining about the referral and how it was done, especially in the long run it's content were ignored.

[think about it]

I think the question here is around this risk assessment, I can't help but wonder - as a public sector manager - who is best placed and qualified to carry out a risk assessment in the event of someone apparently displaying a relatively large stress reaction.

 

Even being in the health service I would feel completely ill-at-ease with carrying out such a meeting without clinical representation there. Perhaps the communication was lacking in tact but it would seem that OH input would be appropriate based on what you've said.

 

I think the big red flag that was waved was: I finished conversation saying something like..I'm going to see my doctor and if I am ill you (my employer- public sector) have made me ill.

In that case the HR adviser's report to their line manager was probably one of deep personal concern for your wellbeing and safety.

 

However, to answer your questions...

 

Yes you can complain, quite how far you'll get or indeed what the resolution might be I don't know. I think potentially what Bazza is alluding to is whether an apology / explanation will be sufficient or are you looking for other forms of redress.

 

In terms of how the report has been used or perhaps not used, I see from your posts that you make mention of things having happened since then, if those occurences, whatever they are, are linked to your health at the moment then perhaps the recommendations made (if there were any) are now inappropriate or out of time in terms of their intentions.

[BazzaS]

Hiya, don't think you are taking into account that I was very stressed, or even know much about stress by the sounds of it. People are not rational when they are stressed. However, the Health and safety guidelines on referrals for stress do take that into account..stressed people are vulnerable; some commit suicide over smaller things than feeling forced to get themselves to a strange place to go and talk to a total stranger. Also, yes, about risk assessment, as I understand it ..it's supposed to happen before the referral, the employee is supposed to be present and the 'option' of a referral discussed and offered. It's supposed to be a meeting to weigh up what the benefits of a referral might be against adding stress and pressure onto an already stressed employee. And yes, it's in our Company Attendance and Well being policy document.

 

 

I disagree with you, a referral sent 2 days after I said I was going to my doctor, and a letter shortly arriving on my doormat , without discussion or warning, with a bit stick of what woul dhappen if I didn't go, to a stressed person is not an 'offer' at all ...plus I wasn't on the sick plus it was in my free time i.e unpaid and originally intended to be at my own travel cost. You don't seem able to answer on those points. Some-one told me it has something to do with work time regulations etc., and I should have been given TIL for the appointment, but I don't know where to look for that bit of legislation. No-one I have spoken to has ever heard of someone being sent to OH, so quickly, (within 2 days), when they aren't even on the sick and in their free time ( I work part-time) . So it's not a regular situation, which is why I'm asking on this forum. The referral certainly wasn't out of concern for me or my safety or ability to work; as I'd told HR I was going to see my own GP for an opinion.

 

 

Also, handling stress carefully is not just down to company policy, the Data protection codes regarding referring people for medical examinations in the first place, especially for stress (I was sent to a clinical doctor) are quite clear about the care with which it should be done . The policy documents make it very clear it shouldn't be done willy nilly by anyone on a whimsy. It's intrusive..and there has to be good reason and some prospect of benefit all round. In this instance the people who sent me knew exactly what the problem was so no new input would come out of a OH referral. When HR got the report it was never mentioned again..ever nor was there any follow up from OH, but in the meantime some-one has seen sense and a meeting was arranged in which the issues causing my stress were discussed and a review started. So clearly the referral was a totally pointless exercise and served no purpose, just wasted my time and tax payers money, plus caused me a huge amount of totally avoidable stress (which is exactly what a risk assessment meeting is supposed to avoid). Regarding what I want out of it I want to see if any forum members have some useful input regarding where I stand with regard to complaining about the referral and how it was done, especially in the long run it's content were ignored.

 

You still haven't said what you what as the outcome of the process. Are your goals realistic?

 

As for "Hiya, don't think you are taking into account that I was very stressed, or even know much about stress by the sounds of it" ; my point is not how you reacted then.

It is how you still can't see NOW how their behaviour may have been appropriate, or the conflicting pressures they faced. I suspect this will continue to affect any complaint you make.

 

As for your assessment regarding my knowledge / experience of stress: if I'd known you were such an expert I'd have known that there was no point in replying.

Additionally, do you think taking a swipe at me / my knowledge regarding stress is going to encourage or discourage people from contributing?

 

I'm left wondering (given you are such an expert, and you haven't stated what you REALLY want) :

a) are you just fishing for replies that say "sue! Sue! For bundles of cash? Or

b) is it exam season already (employment law essays answered by asking in Internet fora a speciality .....)

Do you need the answers to part A of the Essay first? Is that why you are holding back on what has happened since? (Is that part B?)

 

I would like to know why you are asking this now, many months after the incident, before I reply. Clearly something else has happened.

 

 

When do we get let into the secret? Emmzzi is the expert, and we need to know before they'll answer.

[Gladysnotme]

Hi Bazza, I was asking for information about regulations plus , can I legitimately ask for TIL.. paid Time in lieu for the visit to the Occupational Therapist. Also, since I am still stressed, it's not a bad thing to be prepared for the nt time I make my

position clear and get bundled off to OH again in my free time. Who said anything about suing..that I think was what was behind the OH referrals.. nothing about my well being.. protecting themselves..which i hy I resent them using my free time to do it.

 

 

I've no doubt HR reacted the way they did because they think like you and think everyone I son the take so they can do say as they please.

[BazzaS]

Hi Bazza, I was asking for information about regulations plus , can I legitimately ask for TIL.. paid Time in lieu for the visit to the Occupational Therapist. Also, since I am still stressed, it's not a bad thing to be prepared for the nt time I make my

position clear and get bundled off to OH again in my free time. Who said anything about suing..that I think was what was behind the OH referrals.. nothing about my well being.. protecting themselves..which i hy I resent them using my free time to do it.

 

 

I've no doubt HR reacted the way they did because they think like you and think everyone I son the take so they can do say as they please.

 

Occupational Health and Occupational Therapy are two very different things.

 

I hadn't realised "having a meltdown" was the same as "making your position clear"

 

I suspect HR acted as they did because they were on the receiving end of someone "melting down" and saying it was work making them so.

 

We don't yet know your motives : you aren't exactly forthcoming with what your real aim is.

The more you hide it, the more suspicious people are likely to be.

[Gladysnotme]

Hi Bazza, Actually, you were talking earlier about how I reacted then, by saying I could have refused to go.. my point was.. when some-one is stressed the last thing they want to do is cause themselves more stress by doing something they don't understand the implications of. That's the bit you wrote that made me feel you didn't understand stress.

[Gladysnotme]

Sorry, meant Occupational Health..I think occupational therapy is basket weaving or some such?

 

 

There you go again looking for sneaky motives...what's with you?

 

 

 

 

Saying I was going to my GP is making my position crystal clear.

 

 

Does anyone know if I am entitled to ask for Time lieu for attending a referral meeting in my own time at my employers behest?

[BazzaS]

Hi Bazza, Actually, you were talking earlier about how I reacted then, by saying I could have refused to go.. my point was.. when some-one is stressed the last thing they want to do is cause themselves more stress by doing something they don't understand the implications of. That's the bit you wrote that made me feel you didn't understand stress.

 

You still aren't showing insight NOW, looking back at how they behaved THEN.

 

I'd stated this above, already.

 

So, the more you try to excuse having taken a pop at someone for replying, and the longer you don't tell us

a) what has happened since

b) what your aim really is

 

Do you reckon you'll inspire people to contribute or shy away?

 

As for "There you go again looking for sneaky motives...what's with you?"

We don't know what your aim / motive is, sneaky or otherwise!

How can people help you get what you want (or tell you you have unrealistic expectations), if you won't tell people what has happened since and what outcome you are after.

 

So, you have also been asking about a few hours TIL, but you've already let on that isn't the whole issue.

[Gladysnotme]

Hi Emmzzi , I am asking now because the issue has not been sorted out .

 

You are correct, something has happened since. In August last year, nearly 3 weeks after the meltdown, I had a meeting with HR, outlined the catalogue of issues, wrong pay, wrong holidays, no contract or contact incomplete or with wrong pay on it,

 

an attempt to patch things up the previous year with a few extra days holiday which a year later were suddenly taken away leaving me owing holiday with no explanation..The treason why I had the meltdown.it was a final straw.

 

In that meeting, I reported something ACAS had told me and consequently HR had to correct two years worth of shifts which should have substantially increasing my holiday pay, plus corrected all the shortfalls in pay that had accumulated because no-one could work it out. (I do night and weekend shifts of variable lengths etc. and there are lots of different enhancements..

 

it is ahead ache but HR had set it up that way.) The ACAS advice supported my claim that the way they were calculating my holidays was unfair and plain wrong. Anyway, 2 month slater in October, the review arrived and I couldn't understand it. an excel spreadsheet and a long typed explantion concluding I owed my employer money. a cursory look over the spreadsheet showed mistakes that easily covered what they said I owed them.

 

I asked for an explanation of it all and was told, no take out a grievance. There are two years worth of shifts on that spreadsheet. Most of my colleague security guards don't even have excel on their pc's let alone be able to analyse a data spreadsheet. (I've asked them so I'm not being patronising..

 

MY line manager refused to help tease it apart saying it was 'too technical' for her. HR's position put the onus on me to deconstruct it.. I quickly realised it was incomplete which meant I had to go over all my own records to check everything and get figures.. the prospect of such a huge amount of work before I could put a grievance in was horrendous,

 

I started having chest pains and breathing problems. I didn't feel safe doing my night shifts.. I work on my own, I didn't know if I just had a chest infection or what so I phone din sick an dhad a chat to my lin emanger basicallyt begging her to ask my DEpt manger to look at the spreadsheet.

 

I was upset. it wasn't a meltdown but I was clearly disstressed but she knew exactly what it was about..then after missing just three shifts, and before I could hand in my 7 day sick note from my doc, I'd been referred to OH again. Again no warning, no asking would I like to go or such just go on your day off.just a letter in t e post.

 

On top of the prospect of having to put in a grievance just to get my records straightened out properly, it was too much. My Department manager said I wasn't safe and told me to go home and see my GP . I had time off on the sick, spent most of it battling to tease out the spreadsheet and write out everything for a grievance ( I also have elderly parent comittments (89) which is why I work part-time evenings and weekends. I split it with my sister who has a weekday job, she does weekends I do weekday hospital runs etc.)..

 

I was up against a 90 day deadline from October when the spreadsheet arrived). That alone was making me even sicker.. so I stopped trying , went back to work had a two month break from it and am now back onto it because the records on the spreadsheet are so totally wrong

 

I'm afraid they will just cause more problems in the future. I am getting stressed again, but this time if HR want to pack me off to OH again I want to be clear on my rights and how they should go about it.

 

Hope this answers your question Emmzzi

Edited May 15, 2015 by honeybee13
Paras.

[BazzaS]

 

I've no doubt HR reacted the way they did because they think like you and think everyone I son the take so they can do say as they please.

.

.

.

 

Sorry, meant Occupational Health..I think occupational therapy is basket weaving or some such?

.

.

.

 

I feel the OH appointment was not set up in my interest at all.

 

Don't you think that your comments might alienate potential respondents with a HR or OH background

(OT's too.... It isn't just basket weaving ... They have a 3-year degree level training requirement)

[Emmzzi]

You think they owe you money

 

They have given you a spreadhsset reconciling what they think yu have been vs should have been paid

 

You are stressed because no one will give up hours of their time to go through it with you

 

Unreasonable. Your boss is under no obligation to be better at maths than you are. Find a friend or family member who is.

 

You do sound like you sweat the small stuff and are a tad paranoid. Under those circumstances I would refer you to occupational health.

 

You have the right to refuse to go. They have the right to draw their own conclusions about your suitability to remain in employment with or without a report.

 

I do hope you are in a union, and have over 2 years service on permanent contract.

 

However I think this is not the right job for you. You are in a "them and us" mindset. That never ends well.

[think about it]

You think they owe you money

 

They have given you a spreadhsset reconciling what they think yu have been vs should have been paid

 

You are stressed because no one will give up hours of their time to go through it with you

 

Unreasonable. Your boss is under no obligation to be better at maths than you are. Find a friend or family member who is.

 

You do sound like you sweat the small stuff and are a tad paranoid. Under those circumstances I would refer you to occupational health.

 

You have the right to refuse to go. They have the right to draw their own conclusions about your suitability to remain in employment with or without a report.

 

I do hope you are in a union, and have over 2 years service on permanent contract.

 

However I think this is not the right job for you. You are in a "them and us" mindset. That never ends well.

 

+1 I'm afraid. Despite a few very detailed explanations of what may have prompted the referral you write as if it's black and white and you appear not to appreciate the reasons for the referral from the HR perspective.

 

As Emmzzi says, to ask that your line manager goes through it all with you seems a bit hopeful at best. Perhaps it's worth breaking the data down into more manageable chunks a going through it a week at a time?

 

I also understand that this may not have been the response you had expected but it's fair to say that situations such as these seldom end well from an employment perspective.

 

Good luck sorting through it all and please do continue to speak to someone about your health.

[Gladysnotme]

Hi Think about it, thanks for the sentiment but fear not for my job, I just got my pay rise and increment.. never had any complaints about my work, the work is not stressful and yes, I am resignedly going through the spread-sheet section by section.

 

It's a hard slog, checking against my own scattered records etc. but already I have enough big errors, totalling over £1000 to request the whole thing is corrected under Data Protection. A new total (backed up by fact) for what I should have been paid, t upsets all previous inaccurate calculations and puts a big question mark over the person who did them, so hopefully some-one else will take over. A grievance is not the appropriate form to deal with complex data, and I wish I'd worked that out earlier.

 

Thing is ...Pay is a matter of fact, not opinion or thinking or belief... In my case, it's the total of set amounts of money for set shifts plus their enhancements; holiday entitlements are in Contracts of employment. Individuals in Management can't go deciding what these will be to suit themselves. Plus, what I was paid is what's on my pay sheets and is what I paid tax and national insurance on plus it is what will go on my Tax self assessment form.

 

Anyone in HR who thinks they can make that up to suit what they want to prove is being rather foolish, they'll have to explain to the Tax office why payroll sent different figures for a start. I accept it may have started as a genuine mistake but digging heels in, and closing ranks on something that is so easily disproved by a set of pay-sheets is gobsmacking and worse, suggests feeling beyond accountability. So far the person has managed to do that ..my frustration has been getting anyone to even add up the totals on my paysheets, just 26 numbers and compare it to the spreadsheet total, let alone take a quick peek at the worst offending entries on the spread sheet.

 

It does seem as if HR is seen as the Higher Realm where reality will be whatever they want it to be, and no-one will challenge them..but there-in lies insanity. Thing is, what all well behaved HR, OH people and management in general need to remember is... data protection legislation and transparency in public office, codes etc. exist with good cause; some individuals will get up to all sorts in the fog of secrecy, so personally doing one's bit to uphold the codes of practice is in everyone's own interest, or one day they may get dragged into the fog themselves and choke.

 

 

That's why I was so stressed at the time and so angry now about the OH referrals, everyone knew I was choking on management fog and worse getting robbed whilst choking , yet I'm packed off as if there's something wrong with me for protesting (yelling) about it. Anyway, I'm leaving this forum now, I didn't get all the answers I wanted but thanks for your concern.

Edited May 16, 2015 by citizenB

[BazzaS]

Hi Think about it, thanks for the sentiment but fear not for my job, I just got my pay rise and increment.. never had any complaints about my work, the work is not stressful and yes, I am resignedly going through the spread-sheet section by section. It's a hard slog, checking against my own scattered records etc. but already I have enough big errors, totalling over £1000 to request the whole thing is corrected under Data Protection. A new total (backed up by fact) for what I should have been paid, t upsets all previous inaccurate calculations and puts a big question mark over the person who did them, so hopefully some-one else will take over. A grievance is not the appropriate form to deal with complex data, and I wish I'd worked that out earlier. Thing is ...Pay is a matter of fact, not opinion or thinking or belief... In my case, it's the total of set amounts of money for set shifts plus their enhancements; holiday entitlements are in Contracts of employment. Individuals in Management can't go deciding what these will be to suit themselves. Plus, what I was paid is what's on my pay sheets and is what I paid tax and national insurance on plus it is what will go on my Tax self assessment form. Anyone in HR who thinks they can make that up to suit what they want to prove is being rather foolish, they'll have to explain to the Tax office why payroll sent different figures for a start. I accept it may have started as a genuine mistake but digging heels in, and closing ranks on something that is so easily disproved by a set of pay-sheets is gobsmacking and worse, suggests feeling beyond accountability. So far the person has managed to do that ..my frustration has been getting anyone to even add up the totals on my paysheets, just 26 numbers and compare it to the spreadsheet total, let alone take a quick peek at the worst offending entries on the spread sheet. It does seem as if HR is seen as the Higher Realm where reality will be whatever they want it to be, and no-one will challenge them..but there-in lies insanity. Thing is, what all well behaved HR, OH people and management in general need to remember is... data protection legislation and transparency in public office, codes etc. exist with good cause; some individuals will get up to all sorts in the fog of secrecy, so personally doing one's bit to uphold the codes of practice is in everyone's own interest, or one day they may get dragged into the fog themselves and choke.

 

 

That's why I was so stressed at the time and so angry now about the OH referrals, everyone knew I was choking on management fog and worse getting robbed whilst choking , yet I'm packed off as if there's something wrong with me for protesting (yelling) about it. Anyway, I'm leaving this forum now, I didn't get all the answers I wanted but thanks for your concern.

 

 

 

Anyway, I'm leaving this forum now, I didn't get all the answers I wanted but thanks for your concern

: Translates to me as 'I got replies but they didn't tell me only what I wanted to hear, so I'm going off in a huff!'

 

The TIL was only ever a side issue really? The main issue is your gripes over pay?.

As for:

There you go again looking for sneaky motives...what's with you?

We finally got to confirm that the real underlying issue is pay. Money you believe you are owed.

There isn't anything wrong with that. It isn't a "sneaky motive". You didn't need to be coy about it, but it took a while before you actually came out with it!

 

"A grievance is not the appropriate form to deal with complex data" : I disagree. A grievance, well set out and proving its case, is exactly the appropriate way to deal.

 

If the issue is complex break it down into its constituent parts. Demonstrate for one pay period that the pay is wrong.

If they uphold the grievance for that one pay period, they will then look at the others.

But, have you done that? And they rejected your grievance?

Is it the case that you won't accept any view other than your own, in the same manner as you don't seem to be able to accept that referring you to Occ Health isn't seen as wrong by the people who have replied here.

 

You probably won't listen (you have been resistant to everything myself & others have suggested so far!), but I believe Data Protection isn't the best way forward.

If you are sure you have been underpaid and a grievance has failed : and the sums are relatively small - send a letter before action, then if they don't pay up take action in the Small Claims track of the County Court.

At least your costs will be limited if you loose.

If you go down the Data Protection route - how are you intending to enforce your claim the data isn't "accurate" (or "fairly held", or whichever point you are trying to use to shoehorn a contractual / pay dispute into a Data Protection issue).

 

Hang on, though. Rereading, it isn't clear if you've actually submitted a grievance ..... Have you?.

 

"yet I'm packed off as if there's something wrong with me for protesting (yelling) about it. "

This just about encapsulates the whole thread.

You swore "to" a co-worker. They may well have felt sworn "at" (rather than just "to").

You showed signs of acute stress, what you described as a "meltdown"

 

They were entitled to act as if there was something wrong with you. Clearly there was!

 

Not to have acted would have been remiss. You remain lucky they went down the "occupational health" and not "disciplinary" route, and to gripe about it shows you haven't got an objective overview.

[Gladysnotme]

Hi BassaS sweetie, you sound very, very angry that I'm leaving, as does Emmzzi. quite touching.

 

You keep asking questions, answer them yourself then go off on one getting angry at your own answer.. so you don't really need me to post anything much do you? Just something to prime a rant at your own straw dolls.

 

Regarding enforcing Data Protection, look it up.. if I tell you you'll only sneer at my 'expertise' again. Emmzzi makes gross assumptions she knows things for a fact then gets spiteful about the fiction she's created in her head.

 

Fact is, I have received some useful advice from this forum, plus a very cautionary insight into the kind of minds lurking in HR Depts. Emmzzi would send me to OH with a mind to getting me sacked just for being the type to 'sweat the small stuff and being a tad paranoid', bit of silly reason in my case..one would hope security guards the world over 'sweat the small stuff and are a tad paranoid'.

 

But with just that flippant comment, Emmzzi reveals how OH referrals can be abused to serve the whimsies and agendas of HR personnel rather offer real support to the poor sod who is getting referred.

 

Which is where I started and where I'll end. Thank you all.

Edited May 16, 2015 by honeybee13
Paras.

[BazzaS]

Hi BassaS, you sound very, very angry that I'm leaving, as does Emmzzi. quite touching. You keep asking questions, answer them yourself then go off on one getting angry at your own answer.. so you don't really need me to post anything much do you? Just something to prime a rant at your own straw dolls. Regarding enforcing Data Protection, look it up.. if I tell you you'll only sneer at my 'expertise' again. Emmzzi makes gross assumptions she knows things for a fact then gets spiteful about the fiction she's created in her head. Fact is, I have received some useful advice from this forum, plus a very cautionary insight into the kind of minds lurking in HR Depts. Emmzzi would send me to OH with a mind to getting me sacked just for being the type to 'sweat the small stuff and being a tad paranoid', bit of silly reason in my case..one would hope security guards the world over 'sweat the small stuff and are a tad paranoid'. But with just that flippant comment, Emmzzi reveals how OH referrals can be abused to serve the whimsies and agendas of HR personnel rather offer real support to the poor sod who is getting referred. Which is where I started and where I'll end. Thank you all.

 

Yup! 100%.

I've got all these straw dolls set up in my mind.

All I have to do is wait until a poster comes along and posts exactly in line with that particular straw doll, and Bingo! : I'm set.

It takes patience to await a post that matches so well, but that's life!

 

I don't need to look up how to enforce Data Protection, as I'm not going down that tack. I suggest you don't know how you'll enforce it (I can't see the ICO wading into the minefield that your paranoia represents), which is way more likely to be the true situation than "you know, but you just don't want to tell us".

(In the same vein that I know this post is lost on you, but it's still worth replying as it is not all about you, the thread may help others : you could tell how you plan to enforce it, not just for me, but to help others - if you really believe you know and are going about this the right way)

 

"Emmzzi makes gross assumptions" : well, to some extent any reply is going to make small assumptions unless EVERY fact has been elicited in detail.

For example, early on, Emmzzi made the assumption there was much more to this than you let on in your first post - and they weren't wrong there!

 

As for "you sound very, very angry that I'm leaving, as does Emmzzi." :

I think Emmzzi is an expert, and writes very focused replies.

I think Emmzzi can be blunt, but sometimes bluntness is needed.

 

What I don't think is that Emmzzi is psychic. By that I mean that you must think that Emmzzi is psychic : otherwise how would she know to get angry at you leaving (since Emmzzi's posts predate your letting us know you were "leaving").

 

As for me, I'm not angry you are leaving.

Pointing out the "flounce" and being angry about it are 2 seperate responses : either could exist independently.

Also, you haven't really left, have you, as evidenced by your reply.

 

I MIGHT get angry at a really good flounce. It'd have to be really good, though, as I've seen a lot of flounces.

Yours was "common and garden" style, at best.

 

A good flounce should be definitive.

 

Not:

"Goodbye, cruel forum, I'm leaving"

"No, really, I am leaving .... Just after this reply"

"No, I'm going..... Really I am .... This is the end"

"Ohh, someone has pointed out my factual error (like making Emmzzi out to be psychic) making something I posted look ill conceived. Here is a desperate attempt to correct it, it is my final word, because I don't expect anyone to dare answer"

 

You posted. The extra details you didn't give initially (of the actual, underlying issue) were dragged out in the end.

You got told things you didn't want to hear.

You didn't get told what you wanted to hear.

You flounced.

 

It doesn't mean the replies were wrong, and hopefully the information will be useful to others who come across this thread.

[caro]

Can we keep to the facts and keep it civil please.

[ericsbrother]

You did get the advice you wanted and that is to use the grievance procedure to sort out the pay errors. Do a spreadsheet of your own and use it as a comparison - by all means do a SAR if they wont give you the data you require to complete your figures (if they exist on paper on in a retrieval system) and that will also give you copies of the internal correspondence about who has done what.

Ehat you have never said is what you want as a result - do you want a correction to your pay (the least you can expect if they are wrong), an apology (unlikely to get anything more than a sorry for getting pay wrong) or something else? Be clear about this when you submit your grievance.

[BazzaS]

You did get the advice you wanted and that is to use the grievance procedure to sort out the pay errors. Do a spreadsheet of your own and use it as a comparison - by all means do a SAR if they wont give you the data you require to complete your figures (if they exist on paper on in a retrieval system) and that will also give you copies of the internal correspondence about who has done what.

Ehat you have never said is what you want as a result - do you want a correction to your pay (the least you can expect if they are wrong), an apology (unlikely to get anything more than a sorry for getting pay wrong) or something else? Be clear about this when you submit your grievance.

 

The OP said they don't believe a grievance is the correct route. They have also studiously avoided saying what they want as an outcome.

 

A grievance is not the appropriate form to deal with complex data, and I wish I'd worked that out earlier.

 

I think a grievance IS the best way forward, if the OP chooses to follow up on this.

If the OP gets stressed dealing with it / creating a grievance : they are going to get more stressed by going about it the wrong way (trying to use Data Protection), when that doesn't work / yield what they want (whatever that really is!)

[Emmzzi]

Data protection will make thm show you data; nothing more. I assume you want action.

 

1. Send HR a nice clear summary of the differences and what extra hours/ allowances you think you are due

2. Raise a grievance IF no action is taken

3. We covered the need to be in a union, did'nt we? Join for next time. I think you are set for quite a few run ins.

 

I wouldn't sack you for sweating the small stuff but if you were having a meltdown and swearing at work yes, I would refer you to occ health to see if you were fit to be on the premises. It isn't just about you, it's about the safety of others and their right to a non threatening work environment.