More nonsense from the tory toffs

[estellyn]

the difficulty with some sort of "community service" is that the people who can afford to take 3 months off are the people who are rich already (the same people who are already over-represented in westminster)

 

well the idea wouldn't be that they take a few months off work, but they complete the service to the community part time over a year or two while resident - so that they build ties to the community that they will be representing.

[ericsbrother]

The workfare idea dates back much further than you may think, the unemployed were given snow clearing duties back in the winter of 1947. No shovelling, no dole.

[Nao]

The unemployed will simply end up being exploited for cheap labour and paid jobs will be cut.

 

All you have to do is look over the borders, Germany already has a system where the long term unemployed have to do work to keep their benefits entitlement, know what the result is? Unscrupulous companies like Amazon run on the bare minimum of staff and then simply get those on the dole to do the work for free whenever demand peaks.

[fletch70]

Rewarding a generation of people that have worked all their lives etc.

 

This generation oversaw the rise of "Greed is good" and ran up the debts this country has. THEY should be helping to cut the deficit just as much as everyone else.

 

I really wish the younger voters and the unemployed started voting on mass.

 

Thatchers Children are on the whole still working or certainly not past state retirement age. I am still waiting for the trickle down effect to trickle down to me

 

If those who are middle aged aren't voting due there not being any real difference between the main 3or 4 political parties if you count ukip, It don't surprise me that the younger generation aren't interested , as none of them are going to help them ,

 

There are some differences between the main parties, if you look at UKIP they are far right, Lab and Cons are fairly centre one a bit left and one a bit right. The only party that still say they aim for a redistribution of wealth from rich to poor are the Lib Dems believe it or not.

 

The workfare idea dates back much further than you may think, the unemployed were given snow clearing duties back in the winter of 1947. No shovelling, no dole.

 

And long before that, the workhouse is a good example.

[goodatresearch]

At what level would you cut off winter fuel payments etc?

 

I know many retired people who could have saved for retirement and taken out other pensions to supplement their state pension. They didn't bother and chose to buy expensive cars and holidays and have frequent nights down the pub (and the there's those that hardly worked at all for no good reason). So someone like my mum who worked full time from age 14 until retirement, scrimped and saved to pay extra into her additional pension and to put a bit away for her old age, she should now be penalised whilst those who couldnt be bothered get a bus pass and winter fuel allowance?

 

 

The problem with making certain benefits, such as the winter fuel payment and bus pass, means tested.. there will always be many elderly people who are too proud to make the claims or have no one to help them do it.

 

I would say those with incomes/savings over a certain level should either not accept them or be taxed on them as income if they do.

[Old Cogger]

excuse me, I too worked from 14 yrs old and fought in conflicts, saved for pensions, only to have them stolen by governments and the final amount greatly reduced, hence those who did not save get all the benefits and us others minimum. not forgetting we were taxed to hell to pay for the WW2 etc etc etc etc, holidays/cars old banger.,, caravan holidays every 6 years if lucky, and going out once a week if lucky to play skittles, also little or no benefits in our days, not like the last 2 decades.

[goodatresearch]

Which was exactly my point. If things like bus passes etc are withdrawn for some pensioners, it won't just be the rich or millionaire pensioners that lose out, it will be anyone with a small second pension and small amount of savings. This would hardly be fair.

 

As for benefits for the last 2 decades, well except for child benefit, we haven't received any. When we first had children there wasn't any WTC or tax credits for nursery fees. So I had to give up work as child care was more expensive than my wage. My husband worked double shifts sometimes 7 days a week. As a consequence, he will have full state pension and additional pensions ( If he lives that long as the state pension age is increasing all the time).

 

If certain age benefits were means tested, we wouldn't get them, however others who haven't worked as hard would. Is that fair? I don't think so.

 

excuse me, I too worked from 14 yrs old and fought in conflicts, saved for pensions, only to have them stolen by governments and the final amount greatly reduced, hence those who did not save get all the benefits and us others minimum. not forgetting we were taxed to hell to pay for the WW2 etc etc etc etc, holidays/cars old banger.,, caravan holidays every 6 years if lucky, and going out once a week if lucky to play skittles, also little or no benefits in our days, not like the last 2 decades.

[fletch70]

Maybe people need to stand back and stop thinking of themselves only in that obnoxious new right Thatcherite way. Firstly has anyone looked at the cost analysis of means testing a benefit for something like the bus pass? Could be that the better off pensioners use the bus pass less which therefore costs the taxpayer proportionatly less . Maybe it is cheaper to make it a universal benefit. This is one reason why the flat rate state pension is being promoted, because it saves money. As for the I worked hard and saved brigade what about the people who didn't have the option to save or have private pensions. The women who stayed at home looking after children and sick pareñts only to find themselves widowed or abandoned with no pension in their own right. Those that paid the married womens stamp and got little for it.

Some people claim that everything that happens to us is our own fault so the middle manager who has a stress related heart attack because they get pressure from above and below only has themselves to blame or the person on a low income living on a council estate with no transport who has to rely on the local convenience store with high prices.

Pdople need to look at the bigger picture , think of the greater good . The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few

[worried33]

 

In short to fix this economy properly for everyone.

 

1) BAN zero hour contracts. (Yes for a small number there are good reason but not for the majority)

2) Encourage FULL TIME Jobs

3) Encourage longer tenancy agreements.

4) Raise the minimum wage to a living wage (Do it slowly allowing time for business to adjust) This will also stop deflation and encourage inflation

5) Education - Sort that **** out. Apprenticeships etc.

6) Employees that have to still claim housing benefit whilst working, their benefits get reclaimed from the employer by the government. Stop subsidising BAD employers

7) Essential services taken BACK into public ownership. Rail, Utilities. etc

 

Valid points, people need security both in their home and at work, also agree on the living wage. The only way to fix the tenancy situation is to build more council houses, private landlords would leave in droves if it got enforced.

 

I had a discussion with my sister yesterday which turned into an argument, it was about the living wage.

 

She is pro tories for reference, her opinion is labour who are saying will enforce the living wage are lieing to people as their real reason is to reduce the welfare bill, my point I kept trying to make to her, is the social security system is not supposed to be here to subsidise companies paying low wages, it is here as a safety net for those who fall on hard times, so as such its far more preferable to increase wages (which in turn reduces tax credits and housing benefits) than to remove benefits from those who have no other means to survive. She was also arguing there be many job losses, I said she fell for the propaganda which business owners also gave out when the min wage got introduced. In the end she wouldn't listen and we both stopped arguing.

 

There is something fundamentally wrong when the social security system is required for full time workers to live.

[SabreSheep]

Well the counter for the job loss argument is simple.

 

If people feel more comfortable in their situation, then they will spend. If they spend it increases demand. If demand increases, so does the need for employment.

 

At the end of the day for all the tory bluster about millions of new jobs. Why then has income tax receipts dropped.

[caro]

Well the counter for the job loss argument is simple.

 

If people feel more comfortable in their situation, then they will spend. If they spend it increases demand. If demand increases, so does the need for employment.

 

At the end of the day for all the tory bluster about millions of new jobs. Why then has income tax receipts dropped.

 

Tempting to mention Swiss bank accounts in response to that question!!

[id6052]

Tempting to mention Swiss bank accounts in response to that question!!

 

Am sure the government would claim that it is down to raising the personal allowances for income tax (who they kidding)

[Old Cogger]

strange that more redundancies and job losses, agencies stating no jobs to offer in many areas???

[fletch70]

Clearly there are lots more jobs out there?

Would you want one or would it be a case of take it or get sanctioned

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/25/zero-hours-contract-rise-staff-figures

[tommy456]

Agenct work is zero hours, but they at least do pay a higher hourly rate

[Old Cogger]

hahahaha not in this world

[goodatresearch]

Many of the jobs out there are advertised by agencies and once you've looked at a few agency websites its obvious they are all the same jobs. Then theres the advertised jobs that don't exist. It really annoys me when people say theres plenty of jobs out there by cause its absolute rubbish.

 

Also the few jobs available are either zero hour or short term contracts. No job security at all.

 

 

Clearly there are lots more jobs out there?

Would you want one or would it be a case of take it or get sanctioned

 

http://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2015/feb/25/zero-hours-contract-rise-staff-figures

[fletch70]

I think you all missed the ?

 

What is the use of a job with no hours

 

Our friend IDS would have us believe that his policies are working , i would have us believe he is a prize plonker

[goodatresearch]

Agree. I know people on zero hour contracts, theyre frequently sent home when they walk through their works door and some weeks get no hours at all.

 

 

I think you all missed the ?

 

What is the use of a job with no hours

 

Our friend IDS would have us believe that his policies are working , i would have us believe he is a prize plonker

[tommy456]

When i worked for a few agencies sometimes you would turn up at the company to find that they had too many agency staff booked that day, sometimes they would have to hang around for 4-6 hrs or send you home, but the agency guaranteed 8hrs pay per each shift , not a great amount of dosh,but better than nothing ,and the hourly rates they paid where higher than what the full time staff where on ,most companies only wanted to give you 8hrs , you had to drag the job out (just as the full timers did) to get overtime at time and half , Sunday shifts where double time but that was in the transport industry

 

Course the main issue with agency work is that there is no guarantee of work all year around , some weeks you would get 5-6 shifts other weeks you may only get offered 1 or 2 shifts that doesn't pay the bills

[Nystagmite]

I wonder if anyone has thought of the impact of means testing the bus pass and removing it from some people - some pensionsers can't or don't drive. They rely on public transport to get around. Surely, it's also not a bad thing to encourage more people to leave the car at home and take the bus instead?

 

I have a bus pass due to disability. If I didn't have a bus pass, I would be relying on others to ferry me around, which when most of my family work, isn't ideal. Either that, or I would pretty much be housebound. I am lucky that I am meters from the doctors now.

[fletch70]

When Tony Blair spent Billions on a war that wasn't supported and then the Tories have had to spend more billions so as not to abandon the victims of our crimes a few quid on bus passes really is irrelevant. I know it is hard to comprehend the amount of money that goes through government but in reality it is so great that it will make as much difference as stepping on an ant

[antone]

When Tony Blair spent Billions on a war that wasn't supported and then the Tories have had to spend more billions so as not to abandon the victims of our crimes a few quid on bus passes really is irrelevant. I know it is hard to comprehend the amount of money that goes through government but in reality it is so great that it will make as much difference as stepping on an ant

 

This is pretty much it. The only ways to make serious cuts to the welfare bill would be to slash (and I mean seriously slash, no just tinker around with bus passes and WFPs) pension entitlements and Housing Benefit. Neither of those things will happen. Nobody wants to mess with pensions, and HB is a massive transfer of taxpayers' money to private business and, as such, is pretty much exactly what the Tories are all about.

[tommy456]

So if they aren't going to take away these extra benefits from the rich/wealthy pensioners like mr Peter string-fellow (who for the record tried, unsuccessfully to pay it back to the DWP) and there are plenty of people like him who don't need these extra benefits,They should cease immediately in their persecution of the unemployed and sick/disabled , otherwise they are biased for votes and nothing else, why should we all have to bear the brunt when they lash out to get support?

Those working /middle classes who follow this con dim idea one day may be unemployed too or too ill to work , they will scream and shout ,but no one will be listening, this needs to stop they need stopping by hook or crook if it where up to me,

[fletch70]

I can't see the bus pass for Peter Stringfellow costing the tax payer as I doubt very much I will ever see him popping to the market on the 69. The free T licence for the over 75's may well cost more to means test than save and as for the winter fuel allowance, I personally know several better off (not rich) pensioners who donate it to sound charities such as hospices.

 

If however people were allowed to earn a living wage the tax revenues would go up and the in work benefits would plummet.

 

Fixing capitalism is however a whole different ball game, a socialist revolution led by the Tooting popular front. Power to the People !