Section 87 Littering offence

[aaroh]

Hi did not know where to post this.

 

 

But today as I walking with a cigie in my hand in Swansea I was stopped by the enforcement officer who allegedly saw me littering the ciggie butt

 

 

I did not realise I did it apparently I was on camera he asked for my ID I provided and read me my rights etc .

 

 

I said sorry to it as the first thing that came to my mind was say sorry and make it go away.

 

 

then I was asked to sign the FPN I did not.

 

 

I asked for copy of evidence on camera to which he replied im only entitled to one if it goes to court.

 

 

What are my options

 

 

I just find it a bit heavy handed really so I was inclined to follow it through

[Conniff]

I'm not a smoker, but I don't consider cigarette ends as litter, they disappear. If they were litter, the world would be 50 feet deep in ciggy buts by now.

 

 

When you get the letter with the claim on, ask then for the evidence and don't pay until you see it.

Edited October 29, 2014 by Conniff

[aaroh]

If I don't pay it could goto court and I would end up paying more? can I not ask for evidence before hand? can I not ask for the evidence in writing?

I pay £50 within 7 days and £75 after 7 but with in 14 days.

[Conniff]

So you have already had a letter?

 

You can now appeal and ask for the evidence.

 

I take it all the paperwork has the council logo etc on it ?

[aaroh]

the FPN was handed to me on the street by the litter police who recorded me on camera to which I asked if he has recorded me litter the but?

to which he hesitated and said probably

 

and yes it says city and county of Swansea.

 

 

will it not increase the fine if I dispute it?

[CrappoMan]

I'm not as smoker, but I don't consider cigarette ends as litter, they disappear. If they were litter, the world would be 50 feet deep in ciggy buts by now.

I don't think he meant the 'lit ash' end of the cigarette, rather the 'filter' end.

Section 27 of the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005 makes changes to the Environmental Protection Act 1990:

“Litter” includes—

(a)the discarded ends of cigarettes, cigars and like products, and

(b)discarded chewing-gum and the discarded remains of other products designed for chewing.”

[aaroh]

so if I challenge it will I have to pay a higher amount or will the clock stop and start again

[citizenB]

Were you not given the opportunity to pick it up ?

[CrappoMan]

There seems to be some confusion on which part of the cigarette you are alleged to have discarded. Was it from the 'ash' end or was it the whole 'filter' end ?

 

If the former, you have grounds to appeal the FPN.

If the latter, as my post above states, you are 'bang to rights', if they do indeed have the requisite evidence of the allegted offence.

[aaroh]

Were you not given the opportunity to pick it up ?

 

yes to which i said on camera that if i pick it up will i get away with a telling off, he said no !!

[aaroh]

it was the filter end and was tiny not the actual ciggies but the end of rollup end.

 

it was too little like not even half the size of an actual cigarette end

[CrappoMan]

Were you definitely caught on camera?

If not, i suggest that as it was a rollup, maybe you smoked it till it was very short, then it got very hot like short rollups do and you (as a reflex) had to drop it or you would have burnt your fingers. Then just as you were about to bend down and retrieve it, a jobsworth (in a hi-vis no doubt) jumped out of his hiding place with his notebook in his hand.

 

Are you sure it didn't happen like that?

[aaroh]

in fact i was at the traffic lights waiting to cross the road when the lights went so had to run to cross.

and yes it did happen like that indeed.

 

well the camera coudnt have caught the drop of a tiny rollup its like his words against mine .

 

im given 7 days to cough up 50 or 7 to 14 days to caugh up 75 or end up in court

if I appeal will it stop the clock ?

[f16]

So a tiny rollup but is £50.

I would have thought the "tiny bit of paper and tobacco" are bio degradeable.

 

Let's say I drove my car off the drive and cleared "tree debris" off my car. ......

 

Is that "Littering" ????

Both the former and latter are ALL plant material !!!

[brassnecked]

It is a money raiser for the council nothing more nothing less,on the back of a service they must provide as in clean streets, but littering is a big problem so they go high profile to prevent it;,,and already Urban Myths based on truth and the slavish adherence to the book by some of the Litter Wardens are doing the rounds.

 

1: The accidentally dropped £5 note, somehow the victim accidentally drops a fiver, Warden picks it up, hands it to victim saying "Hey you dropped this" victim says "thanks, I didn't realise" Warden hands the victim a ticket for littering.

 

2: Mother pushing baby in buggy, baby throws dummy on the floor, mother stops to pick it up, Warden sees it and hands a ticket over for littering, saying that it is the fact that it was thrown onto the ground that grounds (sic) the offence, picking it up after is immaterial, it is the item landing on the ground that makes the fine applicable. Baby not of Criminal Responsibility? No Problem for Warden, Mother is responsible for baby/toddler, so she gets the fine. Apparrently this one is real

 

3: Litter wardens following bin and recycling crews around in the hope they drop something emptying the bins and recycling receptacles, allowing them to ticket the operatives just doing their job.

 

 

I don't think you have a leg to stand on unfortunately, so it might be better just to pay up on this occasion.

[DragonFly1967]

3: Litter wardens following bin and recycling crews around in the hope they drop something emptying the bins and recycling receptacles, allowing them to ticket the operatives just doing their job.

If our council wardens tried that around here, they'd be likely to find themselves in the back of the truck with the rubbish. Our dustmen (or refuse operatives as we're supposed to call them now) are quite mad.

[Conniff]

Did the warden pick it up? My betting is that he didn't, so he condoned the act by leaving it there.

 

 

Council boss to staff: "Come on you lot, there is a £500 bonus for whoever can think up some money raising ideas, the easiest ones are those that con the public."

[aaroh]

Unfortunately I paid up.

 

 

I asked for a copy of the evidence recording.

 

 

 

 

After a few arguments and stating the fact that I've made the payment they agreed for me to come and view it date not decided yet as I will get a phone call after to arrange it.

 

 

 

 

I had to cross a few hoops at first they will not make an appointment saying the evidence can only be requested to be viewed in court.

 

 

Anything I will get out of it what if the video did not show me littering?

[ericsbrother]

They are obliged to hand it over if you send them a SAR and £10. You can ask for just that or if you dont specify what you want they should send you a copy of all of the data they hold on you. Do you want to spend the extra tenner or just go to the council offices and view it for free?

[aaroh]

They are obliged to hand it over if you send them a SAR and £10. You can ask for just that or if you dont specify what you want they should send you a copy of all of the data they hold on you. Do you want to spend the extra tenner or just go to the council offices and view it for free?

 

 

 

I will wait for the appointment the council office is really close to my work anyway.

 

 

If they fail to book an appointment ill have to SAR them.

 

 

The point is if I am at right and the video shows nothing where do I go next.

 

 

Am I playing your word against mine game?

[mikeymack2002]

Crazy defence but true.

 

Rubbish day anywhere in the UK goes like this

 

1. Resident places rubbish correctly on edge of property but inside their boundry

2. Council dust cart operative grabs said bags places them on the road/highway

3. The said operator then walks to next property and does the same right along the road and every road thereafter

4. The operative is Gulity of s87

5. Justice MUST BE EQUAL IN THE EYES OF THE LAW NO EXCEPTION

 

Strange but true is this

 

Under HSE rules a worker must place a protective barrier around a work place that involves a hazzardous product i.e.

1. Removal of debris/rubbish from a high street bin

2. The hazzard is the operative throwing a large heavy bag from floor to a hight of about 1.5m swinging it as they do

3. The operative hits a young child with the bag what happens?

4. The said heavy bag falls off of the carrier and collides with a child in a buggy

5. The said vehicle drives along a pedestrian zone without a front walker to warn pedestrians, child topples over in front of vehicle

 

How daft can this get?

[brassnecked]

Well put MM, but where I live we must put the bins out onto the pavement for the binmen, they can't come onto our property.

[mikeymack2002]

Thx BN crazy or what

[brassnecked]

Thx BN crazy or what

 

All in all the whole bins issue is quite quite mad, look at terraced streets in some cities with 5 or more bins per property with nowhere for the residents to store them to store them. Surely this is a breach of H & S the bins themselves being a hazard and potentially litter of themselves.

[aaroh]

Hi all

 

 

 

 

I think If someone could help me out here.

 

 

I am going to SAR the council for the video. Before I do that,

 

 

Are they obliged to cough up the video seen that it was a criminal offence.

 

 

The fact that I paid for the fine would that not mean that the matter is no longer going to the court hence I have access to it now.

 

 

I say this because the council failed to make an appointment to which they promised I'd get a call to arrange the viewing.

 

 

I have also made a freedom of information request regarding the section 87 FPN issued by Swansea City Council.

 

 

I am going to chase it to the bottom of the hill, its not the £50 I paid its the principle that these councils are using this piece of legislation to line their pockets.