Caught using a child train ticket which was sold by a member of staff! please help very worried - ** SETTLED **

[jessicaa]

I have recently been stopped using a child ticket on my return journey from london on the train and been told to wait for the train company to write to me about what further action is being taken.

 

I am very worried as i hardly travel by train and strongly believed that as i am still in full time education i was entitled to the child fare (all other times i have been with family who have paid for me or been under 16) which i know now is not the case.

 

as i never travel by train i am not confident using the ticket machines so went to the booth to make sure i was given the correct ticket for the journey that i wanted were i was issued with a child ticket and was not asked my age or for any id or informed of the age restrictions on a child ticket.

 

i was not stopped leaving my station or arriving in london so was therefore still under the impression i had the right ticket.

 

the next day once again i was able to go through the london barriers with the ticket to go home but once i reached my home station i saw a penalty notice that under 16s were not permitted travel on childs tickets and started to worry,

 

as i went to the station the ticket barriers didnt let me through as i was the questioned by the staff their my age in which i started to panic and lied about my age but then when further questioned i admitted my real age and gave all my real details and was then read my rights and asked to sign a statement and to expect a letter through the post with no idea what outcome i might get from this,

 

i want to do all i can to prevent getting a criminal record as i am due to go to university next year and i dont want this affecting my life and i have never done anything like this before, what should i do?

Edited July 2, 2014 by honeybee13
Paragraphs.

[Conniff]

Thread moved to Public transport (Trains, tubes and buses)

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

I've put some paragraphs into your post to make it easier for the guys to help you and will move it to the public transport forum. I'll leave a short term redirect from this forum for you to follow.

 

Can I ask what age you are please and also which rail company we're talking about?

 

My best, HB

Edited July 2, 2014 by honeybee13
Extra question.

[honeybee13]

I found this from Passenger Focus iin case it's useful. HB

 

Do my children need train tickets?

 

Up to two children under the age of five can accompany each fare-paying passenger free of charge. However, children under the age of five who are travelling free can only occupy a seat if it is not required by a passenger who has paid for their fare.

Children between the ages of five and fifteen are entitled to a discount of at least 50% on most tickets. Some train companies also offer a cheaper flat fare for accompanied children.

People of 16 and over must have an adult ticket.

A penalty fare can be issued in the case of children travelling without a valid ticket or authority.

[BazzaS]

I have recently been stopped using a child ticket on my return journey from london on the train and been told to wait for the train company to write to me about what further action is being taken.

 

I am very worried as i hardly travel by train and strongly believed that as i am still in full time education i was entitled to the child fare (all other times i have been with family who have paid for me or been under 16) which i know now is not the case.

 

as i never travel by train i am not confident using the ticket machines so went to the booth to make sure i was given the correct ticket for the journey that i wanted were i was issued with a child ticket and was not asked my age or for any id or informed of the age restrictions on a child ticket.

 

i was not stopped leaving my station or arriving in london so was therefore still under the impression i had the right ticket.

 

the next day once again i was able to go through the london barriers with the ticket to go home but once i reached my home station i saw a penalty notice that under 16s were not permitted travel on childs tickets and started to worry,

 

as i went to the station the ticket barriers didnt let me through as i was the questioned by the staff their my age in which i started to panic and lied about my age but then when further questioned i admitted my real age and gave all my real details and was then read my rights and asked to sign a statement and to expect a letter through the post with no idea what outcome i might get from this,

 

i want to do all i can to prevent getting a criminal record as i am due to go to university next year and i dont want this affecting my life and i have never done anything like this before, what should i do?

 

Don't panic.

 

Wait until you get the letter then post again : it will be important to know the details of the letter (deleting any identifiable information), in particular if it notes a statute or Bylaw they are considering proceeding under.

 

Once you know what you are facing we can help you tailor a reply.

 

Sadly, lying about your age might be held to be a sign you intended to avoid your (full) fare : even though you say this was "in panic".

Ideally, once you saw the notice saying "no child's tickets for over 16's" you'd have approached a member of staff and explained your error (rather than it waiting until they stopped you, and you lying about your age) : it would be hard for them to claim "intent" in those circumstances!

 

Were you under caution at the time? Are you under 18?

[jessicaa]

Hello and welcome to CAG.

 

I've put some paragraphs into your post to make it easier for the guys to help you and will move it to the public transport forum. I'll leave a short term redirect from this forum for you to follow.

 

Can I ask what age you are please and also which rail company we're talking about?

 

My best, HB

 

 

Hi I've recently turned 18 and it's first capital connect

[jessicaa]

Don't panic.

 

Wait until you get the letter then post again : it will be important to know the details of the letter (deleting any identifiable information), in particular if it notes a statute or Bylaw they are considering proceeding under.

 

Once you know what you are facing we can help you tailor a reply.

 

Sadly, lying about your age might be held to be a sign you intended to avoid your (full) fare : even though you say this was "in panic".

Ideally, once you saw the notice saying "no child's tickets for over 16's" you'd have approached a member of staff and explained your error (rather than it waiting until they stopped you, and you lying about your age) : it would be hard for them to claim "intent" in those circumstances!

 

Were you under caution at the time? Are you under 18?

 

I wasn't under caution when I lied about my age out of panic, I did not know what to do about realising I had the wrong ticket!! Yeah I've just recently turned 18 I just don't want to get a criminal record!

[Stigy]

I wasn't under caution when I lied about my age out of panic, I did not know what to do about realising I had the wrong ticket!! Yeah I've just recently turned 18 I just don't want to get a criminal record!

Hi, try not to panic.

 

As Bazza has said, lying about your age could easily be seen as intent to avoid payment by FCC (Why lie about your age if you genuinely believed you were entitled to a child rate ticket?). I appreciate you're saying you were panicking, but unfortunately the staff 'on the ground' and FCC's prosecutors would have heard it all before. If this is a first offence you might find they'll be prepared to settle the matter by way of a final warning and for you to meet their reasonable admin costs. This being the case, the matter will not go to court and that'll be the end of it. Unfortunately though, you'll have to wait for FCC to write to you before you know how to reply and what is needed from you. If it went to court the charge brought would be dictated by the evidence that FCC have against you, but it'll be one of two. An offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RRA) or an offence under Railway Byelaw 18 (the latter being the less serious, and non-recordable). Most Adult on child ticket cases are quite clear RRA 1889 offences I'm afraid.

[jessicaa]

Hi, try not to panic.

 

As Bazza has said, lying about your age could easily be seen as intent to avoid payment by FCC (Why lie about your age if you genuinely believed you were entitled to a child rate ticket?). I appreciate you're saying you were panicking, but unfortunately the staff 'on the ground' and FCC's prosecutors would have heard it all before. If this is a first offence you might find they'll be prepared to settle the matter by way of a final warning and for you to meet their reasonable admin costs. This being the case, the matter will not go to court and that'll be the end of it. Unfortunately though, you'll have to wait for FCC to write to you before you know how to reply and what is needed from you. If it went to court the charge brought would be dictated by the evidence that FCC have against you, but it'll be one of two. An offence under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 (RRA) or an offence under Railway Byelaw 18 (the latter being the less serious, and non-recordable). Most Adult on child ticket cases are quite clear RRA 1889 offences I'm afraid.

 

This was a first offence as I don't travel by train ever really due to where I live, is it likely I will be able to get them to settle out of court as it would affect my current job, any future job application and applying for university! I am more than willing to pay the admin fees the penalty fee and the cost of the correct adult ticket which I would have done at the time if I was told I need an adult ticket! My main concern is that I am out of the country for two weeks soon and I am afraid that the letter will come while I am away and therefore miss my chance to put my side of the story across, I don't know whether it is worth calling the prosecution department in two weeks if I have not received a letter as I would like to try and resolve the issue before I go abroad. The whole situation is causing me a lot of stress, I've not been sleeping well at night, had a loss of appetite and am constantly crying and anxious about everything

[Stigy]

This was a first offence as I don't travel by train ever really due to where I live, is it likely I will be able to get them to settle out of court as it would affect my current job, any future job application and applying for university! I am more than willing to pay the admin fees the penalty fee and the cost of the correct adult ticket which I would have done at the time if I was told I need an adult ticket! My main concern is that I am out of the country for two weeks soon and I am afraid that the letter will come while I am away and therefore miss my chance to put my side of the story across, I don't know whether it is worth calling the prosecution department in two weeks if I have not received a letter as I would like to try and resolve the issue before I go abroad. The whole situation is causing me a lot of stress, I've not been sleeping well at night, had a loss of appetite and am constantly crying and anxious about everything

How long ago was the incident?

 

It typically takes 6-8 weeks from the time the passenger was first spoken to, to then receiving their first correspondence. I wouldn't worry to much about receiving a letter when out of the country as this would be very unlikely. If however it did arrive and you weren't there, you've usually got 14-days to respond anyway, and they'll appreciate that this is the holiday season and people are away. If you did return home to find you've missed the deadline, simply supplying proof of your whereabouts etc should be enough for them to still hear your version of events.

 

A lot of companies offer first time offenders the chance to settle the matter administratively without the need for court time, this looks good in the eyes of the court if the train company has given the defendant every opportunity to avoid court action. All prosecutions have to be in the public interest too, and giving a person the opportunity to avoid court also aids the public interest issue should they ignore correspondence etc.

[jessicaa]

How long ago was the incident?

 

It typically takes 6-8 weeks from the time the passenger was first spoken to, to then receiving their first correspondence. I wouldn't worry to much about receiving a letter when out of the country as this would be very unlikely. If however it did arrive and you weren't there, you've usually got 14-days to respond anyway, and they'll appreciate that this is the holiday season and people are away. If you did return home to find you've missed the deadline, simply supplying proof of your whereabouts etc should be enough for them to still hear your version of events.

 

A lot of companies offer first time offenders the chance to settle the matter administratively without the need for court time, this looks good in the eyes of the court if the train company has given the defendant every opportunity to avoid court action. All prosecutions have to be in the public interest too, and giving a person the opportunity to avoid court also aids the public interest issue should they ignore correspondence etc.

 

It happened earlier this week! 6-8 weeks is exactly when I am meant to be out of the country, if I called up in about 2 weeks explaining that I'm worried I will be out of the country when the letter arrives do you think they'll allow me to settle the matter early?

[firstclassx]

I'd change your story too.

 

1) You're 18. Being critically realistic, nobody with any sort of common sense would think you could be entitled to a child ticket.

 

2) The likelihood is that this is NOT the first time you've taken advantage of a 50% discount you are not entitled to. The fact you lied about your age/DOB, suggests you knew full well that you were too old. As a prosecutor, I would put money that when you have been 16 and 17, possibly other times at 18, you've done this before.

 

3) The FCC Inspector was quite correct to report this matter for prosecution (MG11), because your actions and circumstances suggest this was deliberate, and you intentionally avoided paying the correct fare.

 

4) The fact the booking office provided you with a child ticket is not relevant. You ASKED for a child ticket. If you deny that you did, then I can guarantee that FCC will get the member of staff to provide a sworn statement contradicting you, even if it is just very general, such as "As per company instructions and training, I will not, and do not issue a child ticket unless the customer specifically requests to purchase one". Any passenger can buy any ticket, at any time. It is the customers responsibility to ensure that the ticket is valid for the journey they wish to make, and if they are unsure, to seek assistance from staff. You could have purchased the ticket from a self service machine, which again, does not seek verification of age, so this "defence" is really not going to work.

 

5) In relation to point 4, if you actually purchased the ticket from a vending machine, not a ticket office, be aware that this is very obvious, and it would go very much against you.

 

7) This whole story of you suddenly saw a sign warning that you couldn't have a child ticket beyond 15. Even if it is true, you've really badly set yourself up, because, despite noticing it, you've still attempted to gain access/exit through the ticket barriers hoping you would be unnoticed. This, in my opinion, proves intent, as at that point, you knew, full well, that your ticket was invalid, but chose not to approach staff to deal with it honestly.

 

8) As to what will happen, I, and maybe other forum members, but almost certainly First Capital Connect, will think you do actually deserve to be prosecuted & convicted under Section 5 - Regulation of Railways Act 1889 for intentionally avoiding your fare. Whilst I doubt you will end up in court, (unless you've been "caught" before, Penalty Fares etc), I think you will get out of this one with a settlement amount in the mid-high hundreds.

[jessicaa]

I'd change your story too.

 

1) You're 18. Being critically realistic, nobody with any sort of common sense would think you could be entitled to a child ticket.

 

2) The likelihood is that this is NOT the first time you've taken advantage of a 50% discount you are not entitled to. The fact you lied about your age/DOB, suggests you knew full well that you were too old. As a prosecutor, I would put money that when you have been 16 and 17, possibly other times at 18, you've done this before.

 

3) The FCC Inspector was quite correct to report this matter for prosecution (MG11), because your actions and circumstances suggest this was deliberate, and you intentionally avoided paying the correct fare.

 

4) The fact the booking office provided you with a child ticket is not relevant. You ASKED for a child ticket. If you deny that you did, then I can guarantee that FCC will get the member of staff to provide a sworn statement contradicting you, even if it is just very general, such as "As per company instructions and training, I will not, and do not issue a child ticket unless the customer specifically requests to purchase one". Any passenger can buy any ticket, at any time. It is the customers responsibility to ensure that the ticket is valid for the journey they wish to make, and if they are unsure, to seek assistance from staff. You could have purchased the ticket from a self service machine, which again, does not seek verification of age, so this "defence" is really not going to work.

 

5) In relation to point 4, if you actually purchased the ticket from a vending machine, not a ticket office, be aware that this is very obvious, and it would go very much against you.

 

7) This whole story of you suddenly saw a sign warning that you couldn't have a child ticket beyond 15. Even if it is true, you've really badly set yourself up, because, despite noticing it, you've still attempted to gain access/exit through the ticket barriers hoping you would be unnoticed. This, in my opinion, proves intent, as at that point, you knew, full well, that your ticket was invalid, but chose not to approach staff to deal with it honestly.

 

8) As to what will happen, I, and maybe other forum members, but almost certainly First Capital Connect, will think you do actually deserve to be prosecuted & convicted under Section 5 - Regulation of Railways Act 1889 for intentionally avoiding your fare. Whilst I doubt you will end up in court, (unless you've been "caught" before, Penalty Fares etc), I think you will get out of this one with a settlement amount in the mid-high hundreds.

 

Surely if I change my story that would make things worse as I would be lying! It honestly is the first time, I don't live very close to the train station and have no reason to take the train as my parents drive me wherever I need to go! I definitely did go to the ticket office, in hindsight I should of asked the staff their about my ticket when I saw the sign but again when I saw the sign I became really anxious and panicked in my head. I would literally do anything to keep this out of court, on research I've seen people settle out of court by paying the admin fee which is around £110 the £20 penalty fare and the full correct adult fare of the journey taken

[Stigy]

Surely if I change my story that would make things worse as I would be lying! It honestly is the first time, I don't live very close to the train station and have no reason to take the train as my parents drive me wherever I need to go! I definitely did go to the ticket office, in hindsight I should of asked the staff their about my ticket when I saw the sign but again when I saw the sign I became really anxious and panicked in my head. I would literally do anything to keep this out of court, on research I've seen people settle out of court by paying the admin fee which is around £110 the £20 penalty fare and the full correct adult fare of the journey taken

Yes you'd not be being honest, but it will look less like you're trying to make excuses for your actions. You're between a rock and a hard place I'm afraid. I'd advise maybe not lying as such, but placing LESS emphasis on why you thought you were entitled to a child ticket, and more on the fact that you now understand it was wrong and wish to make amends. If you call them about being out of the country you're pre-empting that they will actually make contact. Don't forget, they might not for a number of reasons, so why remind them? Go on holiday and enjoy yourself.

 

5) In relation to point 4, if you actually purchased the ticket from a vending machine, not a ticket office, be aware that this is very obvious, and it would go very much against you

 

Some TOCs' TVMs now have a pop-up box that asks the customer to confirm they're between 5 and 15 years of age, before allowing them to purchase a child rate ticket. I know SWT's TVMs do this. Southern's don't have a pop-up box appear on-screen but you do have to physically select "more passengers" from the screen and delete the adult from the transaction, before adding a child. SWT's version makes any ignorance completely disappear as it's abundantly clear who is entitled to said ticket! I'd like to see all TOCs adopt this technology which I'm sure is easy enough to install across and network.

[jessicaa]

Yes you'd not be being honest, but it will look less like you're trying to make excuses for your actions. You're between a rock and a hard place I'm afraid. I'd advise maybe not lying as such, but placing LESS emphasis on why you thought you were entitled to a child ticket, and more on the fact that you now understand it was wrong and wish to make amends. If you call them about being out of the country you're pre-empting that they will actually make contact. Don't forget, they might not for a number of reasons, so why remind them? Go on holiday and enjoy yourself.

 

My concern is though is if they contact me whilst I am on holiday and miss the time limit they place on me to reply with my version of events and therefore not being able to settle out of court possibly. What reasons do they have to possibly not contact me about the situation?

[Conniff]

It happened earlier this week! 6-8 weeks is exactly when I am meant to be out of the country, if I called up in about 2 weeks explaining that I'm worried I will be out of the country when the letter arrives do you think they'll allow me to settle the matter early?

 

My concern is though is if they contact me whilst I am on holiday and miss the time limit they place on me to reply with my version of events and therefore not being able to settle out of court possibly. What reasons do they have to possibly not contact me about the situation?

 

You've already outlined the action you should take.

[jessicaa]

You've already outlined the action you should take.

 

So you think I should call up and try to resolve the matter before I leave the country?

[Conniff]

Yes if you are going to be out of the country, you might be lucky.

 

 

Then again, they might issue an international arrest warrant and Interpol come after you

[firstclassx]

Yes if you are going to be out of the country, you might be lucky.

 

 

Then again, they might issue an international arrest warrant and Interpol come after you

 

Whilst Interpol is a bit extreme, I think you'd be surprised at the number of "without bail" arrest warrants TOCs are in possession off for cases where offenders haven't turned up at court!

[jessicaa]

Whilst Interpol is a bit extreme, I think you'd be surprised at the number of "without bail" arrest warrants TOCs are in possession off for cases where offenders haven't turned up at court!

 

Now you're starting to scare me! What would you advise is the best course of action to take? I don't want to leave the country now!

[honeybee13]

Hello Jessica.

 

Don't let the guys scare you, you'll be OK. The thing is that if you ring the TOC before they write, they won't have a reference for your case and may not be able to find the papers.

 

I wonder what the transport guys think about ringing before you go away if you haven't heard from the TOC and getting an email address to contact, so that you can have a paper record that you tried to sort this out before your holiday.

 

Guys, can we bear in mind that Jessica is only 18 and not carry on with the jokes please? Constructive advice would be nice.

 

HB

[Old-CodJA]

You might wish to give this a try:

 

Call 08457 225225 and ask if they have a report received in your name. If they say yes, ask if they can give you the reference number explaining that you will be going out of the country and do not wish to miss any correspondence that they may be intending to send you.

 

If they say 'no', don't give any further information except perhaps to say what date you might have been spoken to.

 

Only if they confirm that you have been reported, you can then write to First Capital Connect Revenue Protection / Prosecutions Dept. Kings Cross Station, Euston Road, London. N1 9AL, thereby putting something on record before you leave for holiday, or ask them for the correct email address to send a letter to the person dealing with your file and do the same thing, but electronically.

[jessicaa]

You might wish to give this a try:

 

Call 08457 225225 and ask if they have a report received in your name. If they say yes, ask if they can give you the reference number explaining that you will be going out of the country and do not wish to miss any correspondence that they may be intending to send you.

 

If they say 'no', don't give any further information except perhaps to say what date you might have been spoken to.

 

Only if they confirm that you have been reported, you can then write to First Capital Connect Revenue Protection / Prosecutions Dept. Kings Cross Station, Euston Road, London. N1 9AL, thereby putting something on record before you leave for holiday, or ask them for the correct email address to send a letter to the person dealing with your file and do the same thing, but electronically.

 

Thank you for this! Do you think they may let me settle it out of court if I do this and actively seek to resolve the matter, I can't afford to get a criminal record it would ruin my life and it is causing me a lot of distress

[BazzaS]

Thank you for this! Do you think they may let me settle it out of court if I do this and actively seek to resolve the matter, I can't afford to get a criminal record it would ruin my life and it is causing me a lot of distress

 

They might.

OCJ is better placed to answer than me, as they work in Prosecutions, and have vast experience.

 

From my limited experience (from the threads here), the key points are:

1) Apologize, in your own words, but by all means be guided by examples from other threads here. There is no "magic bullet" letter you can copy and send, it is important that you cover the basic concepts but that it is your own feelings and words.

2) Explain what happened, and how. Don't get caught in a lie, as that will harden their resolve to prosecute.

3) Explain how a conviction would affect you, and if that effect would be disproportionate (and if so, why).

4) Offer to pay their admin costs, and any fare due, asking if they would consider an alternative to it going to court.

5) By all means mention any interaction with railway staff ( ticket office or revenue protection), and if relevant list how their actions affected events but DON'T 'blame' the rail staff. If they made errors let the prosecutions team come to that conclusion, rather than letting it look like you are trying to evade your responsibilities by blaming them.

[veganite]

hi Jessicaa,

It is obvious from your thread that you are clearly distressed and scared about this situation. Please ignore such stupid comments re Interpol international arrest warrants etc.

The only other advice I can give to you is to enjoy your holiday and don't feel as though you should not leave the country because of your fear.

 

Post 10 and 24 provides you with good advice. I believe it is highly likely that this will not go to court provided that you create a paper train / email offering to pay their admin fees, value of ticket etc, just generally following the adivce in the post above mine.