Work Related Activity - Ingeus Health and Work Support Programme

[Asleep In Wonder]

@ Asleep In Wonder. I was concerned she wasn't suitably qualified for my type of condition but she insisted that as she's a Physiotherapist she could deal with physical and mental issues because they are often interlinked.

 

She has the following after her name. B.Sc(Hons), MCSP, HPC Reg, AACP, OCPPP. I'd never thought to complain to the professional bodies where she's registered. So if I go on each site it will tell me if she's still registered to practice through them?

 

 

 

I'd have a look at any professional body that holds a register.

 

 

A quickly cobbled together list* based on the qualifications that she cites:-

 

 

Chartered Society of Physiotherapists (MCSP)

Royal College of Physiotherapists

Health & Care Professions Council (HCP Reg)

Acupuncture Association of Chartered Physiotherapists (AACP)

Organisation of Chartered Physiotherapists in Private Practice (Physio First)

 

 

So she's a physio who is NOT QUALIFIED to provide MH advice or treatment.

 

 

I'd still have a look on the Royal College of Nursing website to see if she was once a nurse who may have had a disciplinary procedure outcome against her name. It is not unknown for some individuals to stop listing a qualification after their name or on job applications, where there has been something iffy happen career wise.

 

 

The job description for the "Mental Health Advisor" (from Mr P) shows not only how abusive this programme is, but it's also a raw indictment of how badly wrong most MH care is in this country. From the job description, it really looks as if all you need to be an advisor on this scheme, is a big pointy stick to just "nudge" people into behaving as you want them to. It's very telling that the first part of the role is "Conduct bio-psychosocial assessments via face-to-face and telephone-based interventions" Any truly qualified "professional" would run a mile from any role which involved such ridiculous practices.

 

 

I wonder if the HCP advisors are ones who didn't get through the ATOS recruitment process? You'd have to be pretty poor professionally to fail that.

 

 

Keiko, you are so right not to have anything to do with this abusive [problem]. Good luck with fending them off!

 

 

*I can't post links here yet.

[Asleep In Wonder]

....as a quick add on regarding Mr Ps post with the job description -

 

 

BABCP - British Association for Behavioural and Cognitive Psychotherapies (has Standards for Conduct, Performance & Ethics)

BACP - British Association for Counselling and Psychotherapy (has an Ethical Framework for Good Practice)

 

 

Sounds good huh? Well no, it isn't. Psychotherapy in any form (and counselling) is totally unregulated in the UK. These two bodies are toothless and free from regulation. My cat could set up in practice and rake in lots of cash and not be called to account for being a cat with no qualifications.

 

 

Both of the above bodies can take action on complaints made about those registered with them, but it is very rare for either organisation to strike anyone from their register. Anyone who has been removed can continue practicing without any comeback as long as they remove the claim to be a member of the organisation.

 

 

Shameful.

[Asleep In Wonder]

Just learned that all nurses and midwives are also registered/regulated by The Nursing & Midwifery Council. Another register to check!

Sorry about the omission

[keiko78]

@ Asleep In Wonder

 

Thanks very much for your post.

 

I've had more time today to follow up on the websites you've mentioned and I've found this physio is only registered on one website which was HCP. So she's either been thrown off the others or hasn't kept up her membership but is still making out she's a member.

 

It is shameful that organisations don't act upon complaints and physios can still practice outside of an organisation.

*Shakes head in disbelief*

[keiko78]

I've now been back to their office for my appointment with the Employment adviser with absolutely no mention of the appointment with the physio! So how can they help me without an assessment?!!

 

I don't want to hijack anybody elses thread, so I'm going to open a new thread to put my voice out there for others to see how the new Ingeus 'steps to work' process doesn't seem to be working for people who are medically unfit.

[will lliw]

Hopefully, you got your travel expenses refunded for this day out (as well as the previous trip)...

 

Nope not a penny but i have only made one request in person so far, I presented my bus ticket to the HCP at the first meeting but was told to contact the office for that which annoyed me for two reason. The first being that i dont want anything to do with Ingeus's office and the second being it will then cost me more money to claim back the cost of travel maybe only 50p to post a letter or call but thats my 50p the law says i need to live on! These idiots in suits who make up this stuff and cut all the local services in rural areas really think its doesnt matter to lose £5 a week for traveling!

 

Working on this one they owe me presently two return trips to the "centre" but ive lost one of the tickets

[will lliw]

Hi,

I'm a total newbie here and getting the urge to post as I'm getting to a similiar point with an Ingeus 'Steps to work' HCP. I'm on ESA in the WRAG and I wouldn't sign their consent form either. So I thought this was a good place to post?

 

So here goes, I was asked to complete an assessment which I did so they could help me, then the HCP said that to store my information I needed to sign a consent form. I skimmed it, didn't like it and declined to sign as it wasn't just to store my information, it was to give consent for them to do other things like contact my G.P and other health practitioners to get more information on my condition.

 

The HCP got in a right huff because she wasn't able to persuade me. Saying things like "Nobody else in the 2 1/2 years I've worked here has ever had a problem" and "I'm not asking you to sign your civil rights away!". GRRR.

 

The HCP also said "I can't help you anymore because you won't sign."

 

Anyway I didn't sign and I took the form away with me (I'll try and post it here soon). Then a letter came in the post stating that I'm going back to see the 'Employment advisor' in 6 weeks time.

 

My time is now up, I go back to Ingeus this week and I'm wondering after reading your post as to whether they will attempt to persuade me again or what? I'm easily stressed and don't need their games.

 

I'm mandated to be here for 2 years. I've got 1 year left and I'm already doing work related activity to get better! GRRR They are so frustrating aren't they??

 

Hi Keiko sorry i didnt drop in sooner been poorly. Its good to hear somebody else having a bit of a battle with em, we are not alone!

 

Keep up the strength nobody can force you to sign anythiing you dont want to and its not a sign of none participation ether as that would be coercion...

 

I informed the HCP that i have a health care team in place that I am happy with and that no treatment is available theres nothing that can be done to improve my condition, despite her then not being able to discuss I informed her of my condition informally and other barriers to work all informal all unrecorded by her. She's desperate to get me to sign those forms going as far as even saying lets redact or cross out the bits I dont like but im having none of it. i refuse to even look at them now as theres no point sine my policy is one of not signing any document I have not initiated or have no desire to consent to and btw withholding consent is not the same as refusing to participate in the interview because attendance is participation!

 

You know it is interesting because like your story above at the first interview the HCP was adamant that she couldnt discuss without consent but yet at the next session that rule seemed to slacken of a bit although i did say lets just keep it genralised... It is dambed annoying going to these 60 minutes sessions and a minute in being told its upto you what we do now cos you refuse to sign, last time i said fine lets sit here quietly for 60 mins and reflect. NExt time im going follow through with that and see if i can make her blink.

[will lliw]

will lliw and keiko78,

 

 

This looks like one of the pilot schemes that are gradually being rolled out to those on ESA WRAG. It's separate to WFIs the WPP and Work Related Activity.

 

 

Some time ago, it might have been here or on B&W, a poster called "papa smurf" posted with some authority on the law surrounding coercion to take up treatments or activities intended to improve health.

 

 

Basically it's a tenet of law that no one should be coerced into taking up any form of treatment/health care of any type as it is considered, in law to be social control.

 

 

I am sorry but I cannot find the reference in law, the link I had from the original poster, was lost when my old pc died.

 

 

If any one else could find this (there was a question about it in the House of Lords in about 2012) then it would be very helpful to the people being sent on this further example of immoral bullying of the vulnerable.

 

 

Nothing finer than politely handing an advisor or HCP, a copy of legislation with a few lines highlighted that prove you are correct and they are wrong.

 

 

The government appears to have given scant regard to the law regarding health care and consent. We see it again and again. It's highly unlikely that the HCPs charged with running this via existing WPPs, have been fully briefed on the law regarding self determination or coercion.

 

 

What you have experienced comes very close to coercive practice in my book.

 

 

We all have the right to self determination and we need to cling on hard to it.

 

Hi AIW and thanks for this great post, i dont know the particular laws involved ether but i do know nobody can make you sign anything because thats being forced to give away your consent under duress , a clear breach of human rights and common law and even more so when its your health involved as you say social control which is hitting the nail bang in because thats exactly what IDS's lot is upto. I just refuse to sign things i dont want to especailly when they are so shrouded in deception like these forms i mean who in there right mind would grant a third party interloper the right to talk to there GP and get hounded to death under the thumb of complaince.... Fk that.

[will lliw]

Another thing that will lliw and keiko78 might want to do, is to try and find out exactly what the "HCP" is. Are they a nurse? Are they a doctor?

 

 

The Royal College of Nursing and the General Medical Council both have registers of those who are legitimately allowed to practice. All you need is first and last name of the HCP and what they claim to be qualification-wise.

 

 

We all know that the range of HCPs employed by ATOS is wide, it includes physiotherapists too. This is another regulated field that can be checked.

 

 

I would be sending in a formal complaint to all of the regulatory bodies responsible for whatever "field" the HCP is registered with, and my complaint would be that the HCP in question attempted to coerce me into compliance.

 

 

Complaints might not be taken up with much gusto (as proven with the ATOS HCPs and the GMC) but it's important to get this kind of abuse down in writing to the professional bodies who hold the registration of the individuals.

 

 

I cannot imagine ANY circumstances where it would be acceptable to coerce individuals to give consent to either advice or treatment or to someone contact their own doctors.

 

 

Obviously I am not including MH services where individuals tend not to have any rights of self determination if they get to the point where they are restrained and forcibly medicated (another outrage) But we are referring to a scheme set up by a government that seems to have forgotten that social control is illegal.

 

 

I think this is a hugely serious issue and maybe those with better legal knowledge could chip in on this subject?

 

Another great post!

 

The HCP i have has spent plenty of time bigging her self up, she claims to have the power to write sick notes being a Registered occupational therapist but how true that is i dont know. having just checked she is registered with HCPC but not for that long whoever HCPC are. I reckon she thinks she's a gp now which is very dangerous indeed.

[will lliw]

Looking at the range of current vacancies advertised by Ingeus, we can see:

 

 

 

Well... That is what they are advertising for, whether they get it is another question entirely. So my first question would indeed be "What recognised qualifications do you hold ?"....

 

 

Mines an occupational therapist registerd with HCPC since Nov 2013, doesnt at all fill me with any desire to seek her help let alone consent to it. I feel like nipping down to Downing street and begging to be euthanised there on the spot or just be bloody left alone! One or the other please Mr Smith stop hiding behind statutes and then changing them to suit as oyu do when the judiciary embarrass you by declaring your own actions illegal...

[will lliw]

@ Will lliw, my friend has kindly helped me upload the scanned copy of the consent form on their photo thingamegig please do take a peek , is it the same as the form you were asked to sign?

 

http://i1177.photobucket.com/albums/x351/MaulIce/IMG_0002_zps274791c5.jpg

 

Thanks for this it does look familiar, what i will do next time is ask to take it home for consideration since i feel undue pressure to sign there and then. See what she says to that one.... But it all there in the form isnt it, Consent this, consent that blah blah blah...

 

All im going to say is...

 

No, i dont consent to your assistance i do not require it since i have a health care team thankyou. I have attended and participated in the interview so good day or enjoy your nice 60 minute quiet reflective time....

 

The letters i get from Ingeus simply say they can stop my money if do not attend and participate. Nothing about signing or consenting.

[will lliw]

I'd have a look at any professional body that holds a register.

 

 

A quickly cobbled together list* based on the qualifications that she cites:-

 

 

So she's a physio who is NOT QUALIFIED to provide MH advice or treatment.

 

 

I'd still have a look on the Royal College of Nursing website to see if she was once a nurse who may have had a disciplinary procedure outcome against her name. It is not unknown for some individuals to stop listing a qualification after their name or on job applications, where there has been something iffy happen career wise.

 

 

The job description for the "Mental Health Advisor" (from Mr P) shows not only how abusive this programme is, but it's also a raw indictment of how badly wrong most MH care is in this country. From the job description, it really looks as if all you need to be an advisor on this scheme, is a big pointy stick to just "nudge" people into behaving as you want them to. It's very telling that the first part of the role is "Conduct bio-psychosocial assessments via face-to-face and telephone-based interventions" Any truly qualified "professional" would run a mile from any role which involved such ridiculous practices.

 

 

I wonder if the HCP advisors are ones who didn't get through the ATOS recruitment process? You'd have to be pretty poor professionally to fail that.

 

 

Keiko, you are so right not to have anything to do with this abusive [problem]. Good luck with fending them off!

 

 

*I can't post links here yet.

 

Wow just wow I love google and you in that order sorry.

 

Having read your post i started googling for my ingeus HCP and it seems she was dismissed from the NHS in 2004 for Gross misconduct and but not found unift to practice as a registerd HCP in 2007 by the health professions council.

 

My heads spinning this is for real the numbers match...

 

Edit

 

Found a document from the HEALTH PROFESSIONS COUNCIL about a conduct and competence hearing against her but it was overturned as no evidence presented that she gained or used confidential information or acted in a aggressive way!

 

Also it seems this HCP is a chronic fatigue specialist and she started banging on about this out the blue last week even though i have a physical disability not a cognitive one. Confirms my suspicion about her trying CBT to because she started talking about that as well. So ingeus want me to consent to having my head messed with when i have a physical disability, jog on i say why do they all think its in our heads!

 

I'll be dambed if i want to share my personal info with this person let alont accept proffesional help form her at all..

[Mr.P]

Having read your post i started googling for my ingeus HCP and it seems she was dismissed from the NHS in 2004 for Gross misconduct and but not found unift to practice as a registerd HCP in 2007 by the health professions council.

 

You could ask her about this gross misconduct and what further training she has had since then - Then enquire about any other certificates she holds and what relevance she thinks they have in discussing your condition. If nothing else, it should send her off in a hissy fit (just remember to record the meeting in case she claims you are failing to participate).

[keiko78]

 

withholding consent is not the same as refusing to participate in the interview because attendance is participation!

 

It is dambed annoying going to these 60 minutes sessions and a minute in being told its upto you what we do now cos you refuse to sign, last time i said fine lets sit here quietly for 60 mins and reflect. NExt time im going follow through with that and see if i can make her blink.

 

So aslong as I attend interviews I'm participating. Good! It's difficult for me just going to the office, if it wasn't for my partner I couldn't get there. But I wonder how often can they make me have interviews?

[keiko78]

 

Also it seems this HCP is a chronic fatigue specialist and she started banging on about this out the blue last week even though i have a physical disability not a cognitive one. Confirms my suspicion about her trying CBT to because she started talking about that as well. So ingeus want me to consent to having my head messed with when i have a physical disability, jog on i say why do they all think its in our heads!

 

I'll be dambed if i want to share my personal info with this person let alont accept proffesional help form her at all..

 

They seem to think there is a magic wand to wave over everybody! I don't trust them trying to get into my head and I can't see what they think they can do for me that I haven't already tried myself.

[will lliw]

Maybe she is right about the CF because my condition leaves me ratty as fk due to lack of sleep and stress cos of the pain but i dont want her daignosis, i didnt ask for it and i dont need it. Fact is im fine if left alone and not put under any pressure like this but the plan is not to help the sick but to frustrate them we are all usuelsess eater to the elite. They make it so we ethier commit suicide or surrender to the JSA and a life of misery just to save a few pennies they can spend on expensive dinners and more wars. Ian Duncan Smith wants to make it easier for people to kill themselves or feel obliged to suffer daily rather than help the vulnerable, he is utter **** he is the useless eater.

 

As for the other thing about attendance and participation, you have to be adamant and in control that you are participating as far as you can without been forced to give away your rights and freedoms by refusing to sign those dambed forms. They cannot make you sign as far as we know and as another user posted above its illegal and unlawfull to coerce a signature especially so when its regarding a health matter ala social conditioning. Ingeus as a third party are trying to obtain your consent to act as your health advisor on behalf of the DWP, they cannot force you but they try to decieve. Basicly if it comes to it you have to put the burden onto them the DWP and Ingeus to prove that it is a point of law that reqiures you to sign (DWP policy or guidance) and if so that law or policy is in breach of your rights and will not stand up which is why they play these games with us. IT all boils down to political will transposing into legalaze which is why IDS n co have a track record of changing laws the day after they are judged unlawful by the appeal courts.

 

Im no expert btw so please double check everything before relying on what ive said.

[will lliw]

They seem to think there is a magic wand to wave over everybody! I don't trust them trying to get into my head and I can't see what they think they can do for me that I haven't already tried myself.

 

Its annoying isnt it, they think everybody with a phsycial condition can be re programmed to disregard it. Reminds me of the excallent little britain sketch with the dodgy hypnotherapist.

 

 

Look into my eyes, look into my eyes the eyes the eyes not around the eyes dont look around the eyes look into my eyes... Your under...

 

You no longer have several crumbling discs in your spine and the pain you experience is now a figment of your imagination so stop sponging and go get a job.

 

 

321 Your back in the room...

[fletch70]

Hi

Maybe you can explain

I know full well what a HCP is which is what I described on the other thread but it was the context in which you used it that confused me. You said that you were referred to Ingeus and that the HCP you saw there had been dismissed from the NHS for gross misconduct.

 

The issue I was trying to resolve was that as far as I am aware (and you seem to agree) there are not HCP's within Igneus they have advisors who's job is to help you prepare for work although certainly in my area they are very ill equipped to help people on ESA as they do not know the issues, mine said she understood all about MH because her Mum had depression.

So my question is, where did you see the health care professional , was it at ingeus? If it was, were they working in that capacity or were they working as an advisor

 

I am very interested to know about the info on them being sacked for G.M as that should be covered by the DPA or were they struck off, in which case they should not be working as an HCP. Maybe you could provide the link

[will lliw]

Hi

Maybe you can explain

I know full well what a HCP is which is what I described on the other thread but it was the context in which you used it that confused me. You said that you were referred to Ingeus and that the HCP you saw there had been dismissed from the NHS for gross misconduct.

 

The issue I was trying to resolve was that as far as I am aware (and you seem to agree) there are not HCP's within Igneus they have advisors who's job is to help you prepare for work although certainly in my area they are very ill equipped to help people on ESA as they do not know the issues, mine said she understood all about MH because her Mum had depression.

So my question is, where did you see the health care professional , was it at ingeus? If it was, were they working in that capacity or were they working as an advisor

 

I am very interested to know about the info on them being sacked for G.M as that should be covered by the DPA or were they struck off, in which case they should not be working as an HCP. Maybe you could provide the link

 

There are two different programmes being deliverd to the DWP by Ingeus, the standard work programme for JSA people and the pilot scheme for ESA claimants like us called Health and work programme. The ESA pilot scheme is ATOS style HCP needed but the JSA scheme is just boot up arse by any dweeb ingeus can find as theres no legal reason not to since JSA claimants have not been found to have limited capability to work.

 

I think thats a very brief summary and I hope that helps clear it up just to say if its not obvious that a none HCP cannot provide Health care in the UK it is illegal so agian the politicans try to circumvent the laws they themselevs created for our protections. We need a law stopping malevolent laws being made by these vultures, oh wait we have them already and thats why the deciet continues.....

[fletch70]

I have not come across the pilot scheme which is why I was confused . It seems like a massive waste of money to me, you already have healthcare cover, why would you want or need anyone else.

 

You said you had a link to the details, would be interesting

[will lliw]

I have not come across the pilot scheme which is why I was confused . It seems like a massive waste of money to me, you already have healthcare cover, why would you want or need anyone else.

 

You said you had a link to the details, would be interesting

 

Bingo!!! Glad i could help. Its just a repeat of the ATOS saga with the DWP trying to circumvent the claimants own HCP who usually happens to have the same employer (nhs) as the DWP, its very schitso indeed.

 

Heres the link please dont aks me to I.D the HCP. Mods if this is not cool please delete but its just a google search result to a pdf...

 

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CE4QFjAF&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hpc-uk.org%2Fassets%2Fdocuments%2F10001CD420070912_forumenclosure11.pdf&ei=1_OFU9ahOIGvO5qzgbgL&usg=AFQjCNFKSEtXs5mYr3LXnxkkoQqmX89YhQ

[Mr.P]

Heres the link please dont aks me to I.D the HCP. Mods if this is not cool please delete but its just a google search result to a pdf...

 

If the document is in the public domain, which a google search would seem to indicate it is, I don't think there is any overriding issues in providing a link. Indeed, some of the charges are very worrying (drunk whilst driving, assault, misuse of drugs, etc).

[will lliw]

If the document is in the public domain, which a google search would seem to indicate it is, I don't think there is any overriding issues in providing a link. Indeed, some of the charges are very worrying (drunk whilst driving, assault, misuse of drugs, etc).

 

Very true Mr.P but only last week the system started trying to erase peoples past in google in the publics mind i guess that was on my mind a bit and it shouldnt be really cos its just Orwellian.

[will lliw]

Mr.P kindly provided this info and its so valuable here i post it again....

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...tober-2012.pdf

Page 7, paragraph 24:

24. When deciding whether activity is reasonable in a participant’s

circumstances you need to consider:

• The claimant’s personal circumstances such as any health condition

they may have, their ability to use transportation, their skills/education,

any childcare responsibilities the claimant may have etc. These

examples are not exhaustive.

• You must also remember that the participant’s claimant group affects

the nature of their participation. For example, although mandatory ISLP

and ESA participants can be supported towards employment they

cannot be mandated to:

• apply for jobs, or

• take up work

 

• Mandatory ESA participants cannot be required to undertake medical

treatment

[will lliw]

So attended and participated again today, HCP admitted defeat and did not ask me to sign the documents although i had to tell her twice as before that I have a health care team in place thanks. Also got my travel expenses paid in cash back dated from day 1. Nazi germany came up in that conversation to lol

 

Also I was told that Ingeus still count me as being on day 1 since I do not consent to the forms even after several sessions now. I dont know when i will be called in next but the HCP was going to try make it "as long away as possible". She even acknowledged that CBT cannot fix a physical disability lol.

 

In her defence my Ingeus HCP is pretty reasonable now but not before trying her best to get them forms signed, but i think she knows about this forum she certainly knows that i know her past but it was not spoken of directly, we just had a brief conversation about how terrible some employers treat there employees even sacking them for gross misconduct willy nilly if there face doesnt fit.