Gross Misconduct help

[mathieu]

Hey everyone,

 

I`m new to here and could really appreciate some advice!

 

I was sacked from my retail job for gross misconduct a few weeks ago for being found guilty of dishonesty,

Ive been trying to save up for a teacher training course for a few years by saving up money working at this retail job.

 

Before I was sacked I applied for some teaching assistant vacancies to get more experience of working in a school

and have been offered some interviews within the next couple of weeks.

 

I have a former co-worker who would give me a great reference

 

so should I mentioned I was sacked for gross misconduct at the interviews?

 

Also if I did get a school job would it show up on any Disclosure and Barring service checks,

CRB checks, employment/school vetting checks that I was fired for gross misconduct?

 

Any help/advice would be appreciated!

Mathieu

[renegadeimp]

Depends what the GM was.

[Emmzzi]

teaching requires ou to be of excellent moral standing. I suspect you may have an issue. As renegadeimp says, depends what it was.

[mathieu]

On my day off one of the other supervisors lost their keys, when I was in the next day I was not told about anyone losing their keys and I started changing and emptying the bins in the staffroom towards the end of my shift, moving the bins about I saw someones keys. I put them in the safe and as soon as I stood up there was a customer on the other side of the desk demanding a refund, after this I was busy serving customers. I forgot to write a note about the keys I had put in the safe. The next shift I was in the area manager came in and asked to speak to me in the staffroom. He said there was cctv footage of me putting the supervisors missing keys in the safe and as everyone in the shop knew they were missing I was suspended for gross misconduct for being dishonest about not reporting the missing keys. I had a disciplinary hearing and was sacked as they said they had evidence I was dishonest from the cctv footage and by not leaving a note. I tried telling them over and over I didnt know the keys were missing and with being busy with customers I forgot to write a note.

 

Now I am really worried that I have wanted to be a teacher for the last 10 years and might not be able to have a chance of joining a profession I love!

[smokejumper]

Wow! that sounds pretty harsh , these work place disciplinaries really do take some believing.

 

Seems that most of the time, as the procedure has started that you are guilty, unless you can come up with a watertight defence, in which case the initial investigation should have found this out.

 

Too late now, but did you not ask how you were supposed to know about these keys?

[renegadeimp]

Just remember, an employer doesnt need concrete proof. Just reasonable doubt/evidence that suggests you had done it. Although in this case, it looks like they used the OP as a scapegoat as taking both arguments into consideration, it should have been a final warning at best. Not dismissal.

[smokejumper]

Yes I realise that it is down to probability and I don't know all the facts, but when would anyone in their right mind come up with dishonesty, unless it was out of spite that he wanted the person losing their keys to sweat.

 

When I first read this thread, I thought the OP had been helping himself to the profits and didn't even consider this hanging offence, he committed.

 

Seems we could end up in a workplace discipline every day.

 

 

Just remember, an employer doesnt need concrete proof. Just reasonable doubt/evidence that suggests you had done it. Although in this case, it looks like they used the OP as a scapegoat as taking both arguments into consideration, it should have been a final warning at best. Not dismissal.

[Emmzzi]

did you appeal? are you considering an ET? I think it's worth the effort to get this off your record, the evidence sounds very weak.

[smokejumper]

Good idea, might be able to agree to drop it, in return for a safe reference.

 

 

did you appeal? are you considering an ET? I think it's worth the effort to get this off your record, the evidence sounds very weak.

[mathieu]

Hi everyone,

 

Yes I have appealed and am waiting to hear back from the operations manager as to whether or not the appeal will go ahead. Yes smokejumper I asked that question several times and was told that I should have found out from my sales assistant colleagues in the store all the latest goings on in the store which I had missed on my day off as that is part of my supervisor role to catch up on all the latest happenings in the store, I was the only supervisor in the store that day so was unaware the keys had been missing.

 

I worked at this company for 4 years with an unblemished record I had never turned up late, never had a sick day and had never even had a disciplinary warning before, I gave 100% effort every shift and was considered to be a future potential manager within the company within a few years if I continued working hard and progressing well. The thing that has really annoyed me is that the decision to sack me was made by someone from an outside HR company. After I gave my side of the story in the disciplinary hearing, I was told to wait outside while the investigator rang someone in the HR department at head office at my company.The investigator told them everything that had been said in the investigation and disciplinary hearing this head office person then rang someone from this outside HR company who makes all the disciplinary decisions on behalf of the company I work for, and this person from the outside HR company said I should be sacked. That decision was then passed on to head office at my company who then rang the investigator, the investigator then called me back into the room and said I was sacked for gross misconduct. I don't think its fair someone from a different company made the decision to sack me and my previous hard work/ lack of disciplinary record, length of time at the company etc wasn't even taken into consideration.

 

The problem is I applied for a few school jobs last month before all this happened and I have at least two interviews booked next week at two different schools, I don't know what to tell the schools at interview about this, as I don't even know if the appeal will go ahead yet any advice?

 

If my appeal is unsuccessful will the company be obliged to write dismissed for gross misconduct on any references for future employment? I know that other employees who have been sacked in the past from this company have had references from the company which has stated their job title and dates of employment but has not mentioned they were sacked.

 

I`m just trying not to worry about how to pay the rent after the next month

Edited February 2, 2014 by mathieu

[steampowered]

It depends entirely on the policy of the employer. If they want to write dismissed for gross misconduct on your reference, they can. Whether or not the gross misconduct charge was justified doesn't matter. Appealing it or going to an Employment Tribunal would not change that.

 

 

However, these days many employers will only give factual references confirming the job title and dates of employment. This type of reference would not mention the gross misconduct charge. This is especially likely if you worked for a large company.

[Emmzzi]

the employer gets to decide the outcome of the appeal. the employer does not decide if the appeal goes ahead - at least, not legally! It does

[smokejumper]

Obviously I don't know all the facts, but this really annoys me, it seems so pathetic, the whole issue.

 

It makes me want to do your battle for you, but I must resist that feeling every time I read a new post and feel the in justice, I have plenty of my own problems.

 

First off TELL them you are appealing, a reason is usually needed, I think this would be the award was too severe .

 

If that fails then I would think a very well written explanation of this joke, might help if included at some part of your future job applications.

 

At what stage you give a future employer this information is a difficult decision, there are pros and cons at all stages.

 

Alternatively, hope your references given are the simple type ie; yes he worked here from 199? to 2014.

 

I will be following the thread and hope I may be able to come up with some thing to help.

 

Although I haven't been any help so far, I hope you don't mind me writing my opinions/advice on how I might approach this myself.

 

I might also add that I only have experience from dealing with my own problems, research and being in a management position and I do tend to poke my nose in when I should stand back.

 

I tend to also think coming up with ideas/advice gives the chance for experienced members to show why the ideas are good or bad and perhaps tweak them to work.

[smokejumper]

Just thought how long had you been there, you could omit the latest job from your cv and say you where doing odd contracts and studying.

[mathieu]

I`m just hoping I can appeal this and my employer sees sense.

 

I had been there 4 years smokejumper, so it might be hard to explain a 4 year gap in employment if I left them off my cv and I dont know what I would do for references then?

[woad]

This sounds outrageous, but - and I am only being honest and even-minded - we only have one side of the story. I have to say that, because my immediate reaction is sheer outrage; the story as the Op tells it is incredulous.

 

Your T&C's should state what consists Misconduct and Gross Misconduct.

 

From your description, your actions sound extremely reasonable. The manner in which the matter was handled, however, does not. The disciplinary hearing was conducted by a third party, whom then reported the facts to HR? Were you informed that you had the right to be accompanied by a colleague or trade union representative? Did you take a colleague with you? Were you given a written copy of the facts as presented to HR?

 

By not being present when the facts were reported back to HR you do not know if the full facts were given. That - to me - appears one-sided.

 

Ok, how were you to have known about issues arising when you were not there? Is there a written policy that supervisors must write notes at the end of each day, detailing such issues, for the on-coming supervisor?

Is it written into your T&Cs or Job Description that you are to be aware of issues arising in your absence, and how you are to be aware?

Why is this important? because if there is no such policy, then why were you expected to write such a note? Absence of such policy suggests that the company expected you to pick up issues by asking questions and relying on the memory of other colleagues, then expected you however to write a note.

 

The CCTV, imho, would be on your side - it shows you finding keys and putting them in the safe, not your pocket or bag - it shows you being honest. Did you know at the time who's keys they were - or did you just assume that they were 'someones' keys?

 

Have you submitted your appeal in writing? You need to do so. And you need to contest every single point raised in their written letter of dismissal. Any point not addressed is taken as accepted by you.

 

I would also very very strongly suggest contacting an employment specialist solicitor. From what you say I would have thought you had very strong grounds for an appeal, but "IANAL" - and I've also been outside of permanent employment for some time, as I was fed up with HR! My perspective is that of a former senior manager, and like smokejumper, "it makes my blood boil!"

[smokejumper]

Woad,

 

Very nicely said and the OP should consider your advice.

 

I didn't like the sound of the process followed either but you don't find out this stuff unless you are studying or have been in a discipline before.

 

The OP may not have know they may have made mistakes at the time.

 

If I was him I would have burnt the shop down by now ;-) but I'm not advising he does.

[woad]

Burn it down? "There is no human problem that cannot be solved by the correct application of the appropriate quantity of high explosive, the appropriate quantity being derived by the formula P, where P = plenty."

 

I am not advising a particular course of action with that statement, either

[mathieu]

I like this idea of burning it down!

 

In answer to your questions Woad:Yes the disciplinary was conducted by a third party so was seen to be a "neutral party". Yes I took a colleague with me as a witness who made notes during the hearing.

I was not given a copy of the written facts presented to HR

There is no written policy that supervisors must write notes at the end of each day, detailing such issues, for the on-coming supervisor, & it is not written into the T&C`s or job description that I have to be aware of issues arising in my absence. At the disciplinary meeting they said it was common sense to write a note and a "breach of trust" for not writing a note. They also said that although the CCTV shows me putting the keys back, it doesn't support me finding the keys so they cant prove or disprove that I took knowingly someone else`s keys before I had a day off, had my day off, then put the keys back in the safe.

No I assumed they were someone else`s keys as I didn't know the keys were missing at the time.

Yes I have written a letter to appeal against it.

 

This has completely put me off working in retail again! I had an interview at one of the schools today for a teaching assistant vacancy and was not asked anything about my previous employer who sacked me. I`m just hoping I can get a new job soon!