chezt v's Littlewoods Catalogue **I WON**

[chezt]

Ok....good! and....you're welcome:)

 

As for the £35 squid, it is non-claimable unfortunately BUT if this case did go to court then there's nothing stopping you from asking the Judge, it was their fault afterall for defaulting you after you filed a claim.

 

It's worth it although you must try and get them not to default you again after the claim is settled. We'll cross that bridge when we come to it hey?!

 

Wxxx

 

Yup ... ur right hun ... can try n claim back at that stage if necc. Thanks again ... I DO appreciate all your help & feel much better with you 'on board' Xx

 

I would keep it in as it is, £320 of £1600 is still about 20%. So, if your origional minimun payment was £25 a month, if it wasn't for the charges it would have been £20......when you look at it like that then I think it's worth keeping the argument in.

 

It's just my opinion though hun you do what you feel best.

 

Wxxx

 

Yup! ur right ... I'm just being a wuss!

[GaryH]

Hi Chezt,

 

With regards to the amendment, you should find this thread useful, theres a guide to amending a claim halfway down the first post - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/47344-ltsb-defence-claim-too.html

 

It was written initially for amending claims with insufficiant POC, so you may need to ajust the wording slightly.

[chezt]

Hi Chezt,

 

With regards to the amendment, you should find this thread useful, theres a guide to amending a claim halfway down the first post - http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/lloyds-bank/47344-ltsb-defence-claim-too.html

 

It was written initially for amending claims with insufficiant POC, so you may need to ajust the wording slightly.

 

Cheers Gary ... think that gives me something to work with! What did you think to LW defence?

[GaryH]

Not a lot to add to Bookies comments really. From what I understand of it (which isn't all that much I'm afraid!), their saying that the charges are a fee for a service as opposed to a penalty - same as LTSB and a couple of the other banks do.

 

So you've now got to compile as much evidence as you can which proves as far as possible that a breach of contract did occur, and the charges have arisen from that breach of contract. The trouble you may have is that a lot of the stuff on this site is focused on bank charges.

Have a run through of the statement of evidence in the AQ thread and see whats relevent and whats not. I should think most of it will be.

 

Also, have a look at your account contract. Is it the same as what Bookie posted from their website? If it is, then I can't see that they've got much of a leg to stand on - it explicitly describes the charges as default charges! If you haven't got the contract, it may be worth making a DPAR for it - you've still got time.

 

The OFT report is relevent to your claim as they stated that the principles of the findings apply to all default fee's, not just credit cards. Theres a section concerning 'disguised penalties' which will be very useful - section 4.21 I think.

 

Then theres the fallback arguement which you can also use - the Supply of Goods and Services Act. Ie. in the event that the charges were accepted as a penalty they exceed whats reasonable under section 15.

 

So basically, you need everything from the court bundle in the templates library - minus the EDM - plus a statement of evidence amended to suit, plus any letter, contract or any other material published by them which states the charges as "penalties" or "breaches of contract", etc.

 

You've got plenty of time, but it would definately pay to start compiling evidence as soon as you can so as your well prepared. It looks like you've got some great support on this thread, so I'm sure the others will chip in anything else they might think of which is relevant.

 

Also, if your going to amend your claim I'd get the application in as soon as possible - their ideally supposed to be made at the AQ stage, but I don't think its set in stone.

 

Good luck!

[chezt]

OK ... please no-one shout at me but I'm 'flapping' a bit about this now. Had a date of 23rd March through for the hearing & I've still to send off to amend the POC to mention the removal of default (sorry willow) I've just been so busy at home with other stuff and I wanted to try & understand wot I'm doin before I do it IYKWIM? Anyway my Q is this ... LW still have to supply the copy contract .. should I just put this request aside & treat it totally seperate to the court claim?

 

What I mean is that if they can't provide the contract then the debt becomes unenforceable SO what will happen to my claim then?? The letter requesting it was signed for on the 4th Jan and as yet I've heard nothing re this.

 

Should I still go ahead with the amendment now or wait & see if they come up with the contract first???

 

OMG so many Q's my head is spinning tryna get me head round it!! This claim is causing me more headaches n it's not even for a lot of money ...grrrr!!

 

ps - Gary - thanks for the link explaining the process:)

[Guest willowb]

I've just been so busy at home with other stuff

I certainly understand that!

What I mean is that if they can't provide the contract then the debt becomes unenforceable SO what will happen to my claim then??

You will end it because you have no debt to pay? and therefore no default should exist.

I've still to send off to amend the POC to mention the removal of default

 

OK, jot down what you want to amend about your origional POCs and the reasons why you didn't put these issues in the origional.The default removal - beacuse they added it after you had filed your claim. etc....then keep adding bits on, refer to dates correspondance and relevant law, it should make more sense doing it like this....take it to the bone and build it up again. But you need to spend some time doing it. I know what it's like with kids interupting you all the time:confused: and I'll help you with the N244 form as much as I can. Just print the thing off and take it from there, but do it asap!

 

And get something down, anything and we'll work on it.

 

Wxxx

[chezt]

 

And get something down, anything and we'll work on it.

 

Wxxx

 

Willow I know I've said it before but I LOVE YOU!!! Thanks for not shouting .. I'm so unorganised of late! Just popped on to see if u'd replied b4 jumpin in shower, dropping lil girl off at sis in laws n off to work - It's all go on this shift! I'll do some more work on this 2night when lil chufta is in bed - even if it means I'm up late again .. gotta get this done!

 

Thans for your help hunni

[bill-k]

Chez - not sure when you sent off your CCA request for copy of contract, but if we assume it was 1/1/07, then they had until 15/01 to produce, and didn't - thus putting themselves in default, I believe. They then have a further 30 days, during which I suggest you remind them at least once. After then, they are, I believe, in criminal breach of the Act. As such, they may not feel inclined to step inside a court with this, if they are still considering the debt as enforceable.

 

Well that's my take on what I've read on this so far.

 

Unless they come up with the contract, they will have reached that stage before well before your hearing date !!! If they do come up with a copy, please do NOT post any details until you've PM'd me.

[chezt]

Chez - not sure when you sent off your CCA request for copy of contract, but if we assume it was 1/1/07, then they had until 15/01 to produce, and didn't - thus putting themselves in default, I believe. They then have a further 30 days, during which I suggest you remind them at least once. After then, they are, I believe, in criminal breach of the Act. As such, they may not feel inclined to step inside a court with this, if they are still considering the debt as enforceable.

 

Well that's my take on what I've read on this so far.

 

Unless they come up with the contract, they will have reached that stage before well before your hearing date !!! If they do come up with a copy, please do NOT post any details until you've PM'd me.

 

Hi Bill - I posted it 3rd Jan & they signed on the 4th (letter was actually dated 23rd December I forgot to post it till after xmas!!)

 

I was wondereing if it was 30 days on top of the initial 12 days ... so uv confirmed that one for me. the initial period is 12 working days then 30 calendar days on top of that right? So I make that 18th Feb which is a sunday ... is that right?

 

They are already in default now as I worked the 12 working days to the 19th Jan! Should I write to them again to remind them of my request & tell them they are in default then?

[bill-k]

Yes, Chez, that's right I believe - 12 working, then 30 calendar days. 18/02/07 looks right to me. Give it a couple more days for luck.

 

Yeah - I'd remind them now, then one more time later on maybe. They're no longer in default - they're now in breach. Don't pressure them too much, just gentle reminders to go on record that you gave them every chance to comply. If they can't be bothered to reply, then that may well assist their downfall, later.

[chezt]

They're no longer in default - they're now in breach.

 

so when is it default n when is it breach?

 

I'll get a letter sent to them shortly then as a 'gentle' remininder!

[bill-k]

so when is it default n when is it breach?

 

I'll get a letter sent to them shortly then as a 'gentle' remininder!

Aaaaaaw - shoot. Sorry - good job you asked. Head's in bits again. You're right - it's default now, then breach on 18/02/07 !! Sorrreeeee !!!!!!!

[chezt]

Aaaaaaw - shoot. Sorry - good job you asked. Head's in bits again. You're right - it's default now, then breach on 18/02/07 !! Sorrreeeee !!!!!!!

 

So I'm not as confused as I thought I was then ... Yipeeeeeee

 

(I hate doing stuff when I don't fully understand what I'm doing IYKWIM!)

[bill-k]

(I hate doing stuff when I don't fully understand what I'm doing IYKWIM!)

...and so you should, matey !!!! IKWYM !

[chezt]

OK, jot down what you want to amend about your origional POCs and the reasons why you didn't put these issues in the origional.

 

And get something down, anything and we'll work on it.

 

Wxxx

 

Willow I've been making some notes (They are very rough!) here they are ...

 

Original POC (MCOL)

• The Claimant has an account xxxxx with the Defendant, opened xxx.
  
• Since DATE the Defendant debited charges in respect of purported breaches of contract.
  
• Defendant is aware of all details as a list of charges has already been supplied. Another copy will be sent.
  
• Claimant contends: (a) The charges exceed the Defendant's losses caused by the breaches; (b) The Term permitting the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999, Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and at Common Law.
  
• Claimant claims: (a) return of the amounts debited of £326.00; (b) Interest per S.69 County Courts Act 1984 of 8% - £62.37 continuing at 8% until judgment or settlement at a daily rate of £0.07;
  
• Alternatively, if the charges are a fee for a service, then they must be reasonable under S.15 of the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982.
  
• Costs allowed by the Court.

Notes ...

 

Part A

I the claimant intend to apply for an order allows an amendment to the above claim in respect of the claim particulars

 

(because....) the claimant wishes to add a request for the removal of default on credit file under Section 14 (1) of The Data Protection Act 1998.

Part C

 

"I respectfully request that the court allows an amendment to my particulars of claim.

 

I was unaware of my right to request this until recently

 

Default notice dated 22nd November 2006 requesting payment of account in full (received after claim filed)

 

On the 12th January 2007 the claimant received notification that the account had been transferred to a DCA.

 

15th January I Notified DCA of disputed account with LW

 

received letter dated 16th January notice of Legal action.

 

 

Something interesting I've just noticed too - they added a £5.00 admin charge as detailed in the default notice to the account but then a few days later refunded £15 as an admin charge amendment!?

 

Anyway I've still not received anything in response to my CCA request - LW are now in breach & will be defaulted on 18th Feb - Should I mention this in amended POC or just write to the court if they don't come up with anything?

 

Is it too late for me to be doing this now do you think? I really meant to get on to this sooner but TBH I've got some personal $h1t going on right now n my mind's been elsewhere ....

[Sparkie1723]

Just a question to all people who have used Littlewoods catalogue, has anyone ever signed a proper CCA agreement with them?

 

Any goods over the sum of £50 should have a CCA agreement under section 10 running account agreement of the Consumer Credit Act 1974,

 

Just curious Sparkie 1723:)

[bill-k]

Just a question to all people who have used Littlewoods catalogue, has anyone ever signed a proper CCA agreement with them?

FWIW, they tried to withold commission already earned until Mrs K signed a new agreement a few years back. We refused on grounds that commission was earned under the previous contract. Took 'em to SCC and they paid in full + costs before court. Never did sign the damn thing !!

[chezt]

Just a question to all people who have used Littlewoods catalogue, has anyone ever signed a proper CCA agreement with them?

 

Any goods over the sum of £50 should have a CCA agreement under section 10 running account agreement of the Consumer Credit Act 1974,

 

Just curious Sparkie 1723:)

 

Hi again Sparkie ... you asked this Q before mate ... see post #116 on this thread!

[bill-k]

Anyway I've still not received anything in response to my CCA request - LW are now in breach & will be defaulted on 18th Feb - Should I mention this in amended POC or just write to the court if they don't come up with anything?

 

Is it too late for me to be doing this now do you think? I really meant to get on to this sooner but TBH I've got some personal $h1t going on right now n my mind's been elsewhere ....

I think it's best to leave the CCA separate for now, Chez. Send them at least one gentle reminder (which hopefully they'll ignore). Come 18 Feb, they will then be in criminal breach of the CCA, and if they then step inside a court, they could be in deep trouble. But telling them - or the court - this at present, will not be a good idea, methinks.

 

I'll leave you & Willow to do the POC stuff, though !!

[bill-k]

Hi again Sparkie ... you asked this Q before mate ... see post #116 on this thread!

I thought I was getting deja vú, too !!

Whatcha playin' at Sparkie ? Cheeky monkey !

[chezt]

I think it's best to leave the CCA separate for now, Chez. Send them at least one gentle reminder (which hopefully they'll ignore).

 

Just workin on that one right now - Thanks mate!

[chezt]

How's this for a reminder letter .... (Note a few Q's at the end!)

 

 

Consumer Credit Act 1974 s78 (1) Demand Reminder

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxx

 

With reference to the above account, and my request for you to please supply me with a true copy of the credit agreement under which this account is conducted.

 

I note that you have failed to supply the above within the required 12 working days (by Friday 19th January 2007) and remind you that you are now in default under S189 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974. I understand that under the Consumer Credit Act, creditors are unable to enforce an agreement if they fail to comply with a request for a copy of the agreement under these sections of the Act.

 

Non-compliance with my request is a criminal offence under the above Act and will result in a report being submitted to the relevant statutory authorities.

 

As you are aware, a credit agreement that is not properly documented and signed by the customer is totally unenforceable under the CCA and therefore is a complete defence to any court claim that is issued.

 

Furthermore you are reminded that under s78 sub section (6) whilst the default continues you are not entitled to enforce the agreement in law.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

chezt

 

 

 

• Should I mention the 30days & tell them when it expires or shall I just ‘leave ‘em to it?’
  
• This debt is included in my DMP with CCCS & therefore they will still be receiving a monthly payment via them - Do you think I oughta mention this in this letter? (CCCS will prob want to continue making payments to them whilst this is resolved)
  
• Should I now add the paragraph about ‘I no longer acknowledge any debt to your company’?

[bill-k]

No Chez - this is putting all your cards on the table. By gentle reminder, I really meant an airy-fairy "Oh - please forgive me if I'm being pushy, but I ever-so-bl**dy humbly beg to remind you that I requested a true copy of my agreement under the CCA on xx/xx/xx, and , as I haven't received it, I thought I ought to remind you that you are supposed to supply it within 12 days, and at the very most - within 42 days of my request.

 

Please would you be so kind as to let me know how this is progressing."

 

You see, we don't actually want the copy agreement - that's the booby prize. So don't give them too much pressure and grief. What we want is for them to admit that they cannot supply it, and/or then go into criminal breach of the CCA by not supplying it in time. Send the reminder either recorded, or with proof of posting. It is then on record that you have given them every chance. They will probably do nothing. If they do not reply to this, write another one, until they do reply. Once you have a response, then they cannot deny receipt of the reminder. When they have got past the 42 day deadline, they will have put themselves in criminal breach of the CCA. In that state, they will be in deep trouble if they go up those court steps !! :o

 

Geddit ?

[chezt]

Geddit ?

 

OK will do another! There are no templates on this n when I read round last night .. this morning ... this evening ... etc the only reference I could see re reminders was to clarify the position as it is.

 

Anyway ... I'll amend my letter to a more 'airy fairy' version as you suggest ... I can see the reasoning!

 

No sign of Willow yet ... d'ya think she's washed her hands of me??

[Guest willowb]

Don't be silly Chezt! I'm watching and learning on this CCA situation as I've only just sent off two requests myself.

 

If it were me I'd send something like (using your template;) )...

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

ACCOUNT NUMBER: xxxxx

 

With reference to the above account, and my request dated ****of**** for you to supply me with a certified copy of the credit agreement under which this account is conducted.

 

You have so far failed to supply the said documents within the required 12 working days, I therefore am writing to remind you that you are now in default under S189 of the Consumer Credit Act 1974.

 

You now have until the **** of ***** to produce the certified copies requested on the *****of ***** as per CCA guidelines.

 

 

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Is this any better Bill? I thought I may be quite good at 'airy fairy' IYKWIM:p

 

Wxxx