Reclaiming Mortgage admin fees & Solicitors dubious charges!

[Figgydoody]

Hi all.

 

I am in the process of putting together my paperwork to reclaim charges levied to my mortgage account over the last 7yrs.

 

I will be reclaiming admin charges which were levied for missed payments, which is fairly straightforward.

 

I am also going to claim fees for counsellor visits.

 

the lender would send someone from a third party company to the house without making an appointment

in the hope we would let him in so he could discuss our finances in detail

and of course make an assessment of the property to see what it's worth.

 

Invariably we missed these unsolicited visits, so a letter was posted through the door stating a visit had been made

and we had been charged £50 or so for the privilege!

There were also claims this company had visited when they hadn't, and no letter was posted through.

 

Either way, even though the mortgage contract t&c's makes provision for such visits,

I believe this is an unfair contract term and forces customers to accept these 'counsellor visits' which is unreasonable.

It's certainly not reasonable to turn up without an appointment, and state you are charging £50 for posting a letter through a letterbox

saying 'Sorry I missed you today'.

 

So, as far as the company and the bank is concerned, they will charge you the fee whether they have provided a 'service'

(I use that term loosely!) or not!

What a nice little earner!

 

I would be interested in views on reclaiming the counsellor visits.

 

The next fee I plan to reclaim is what my bank calls the 'litigation charge-instruction'.

 

On the face of it, that may seem self-explanatory, but having had a long discussion a while back

I discovered when speaking to a very helpful man at the bank that this fee was charged for transferring the a/c from the normal mortgage pmts dept to their collection dept.

 

No Solicitors involved here just the movement of the a/c from one dept to another will incur a £100 fee!

I was gobsmacked!

So, as far as I'm concerned those fees are unfair for the reason explained but would like views on this.

 

The last issue maybe a bit more complex, and I would like some advice.

 

Back in 2006, we had problems paying the mortgage, and the lender took us to Court.

 

A suspended possession order was granted but we had to pay all the arrears literally a month after the Court hearing, which we did.

 

We were not offered any sort of help by the lender, their solution was 'pay up', that was it.

 

I feel they acted really unfairly towards us, and their lousy treatment of us has been an ongoing feature of the relationship.

 

My question is, would we be able to reclaim the £500 plus fee the bank levied on the mortgage a/c for taking us to Court?

And would subsequent legal fees i.e. for solicitor's letters be claimable given the unlawful fees had put us behind with the mortgage?

 

I should add that I am planning to reclaim all the fees plus seek interest in restitution from them,

and it is definitely the case that had they not applied all the fees to the mortgage a/c we wouldn't have had such problems.

 

Any thoughts/advice is appreciated.

 

Figgydoody.

[dx100uk]

hello FG.

 

you are doing wonderful service hitt6ing all these issues & the others in your other threads.

 

you are correct on the visit fees

 

and all the rest too.

 

now soicitors fees, IF they have not to that point ISSUE a court claim

then you can ge the fees back.

 

and AFTER the judgement, yes you can get solicitor fees back.

 

so, whilst its in the court process, solicitor fees are typically lawful.

 

dx

[Figgydoody]

Hi DX.

 

Thank you for your supportive words, I appreciate it! I think I've turned into a one woman fighting machine!lol

 

Okay, so I'm fine claiming the admin fees, the counsellor fees (hideous charge for nothing) and the litigation fees as well-excellent.

 

The Court case took place years ago so solicitors fees are post judgment. Just to be clear, when the bank decided to take us to Court, there were only a few charges on the a/c, and we were in arrears. However, the bank offered no payment arrangements or anything, it was simply a case of 'pay up', and they obviously wanted to take it to Court to secure their position. But of course, the solicitor's fee which was over £500 has been added to the mortgage, along with all the admin fees etc plus interest over the years, which has definitely resulted in the accumulation of arrears at various times.

 

They will argue that we were in arrears, so it was their right to issue the claim. What arguments other than they never offered us any sort of solution to the problem can I raise to support reclaiming the solicitor's fees? I just want to be clear on my rationale for doing it.

 

Thoughts appreciated.

 

Figgy.

[dx100uk]

I've certainly read it sure

 

I've slightly renamed the thread & moved it to the mortgage forum

p'haps PM ell-enn she'll know i'm sure

[Lea_HTH]

Legal fees for actual court proceedings are not reclaimable unless they are over-inflated. £500 sounds about right for 2006.

[Figgydoody]

Okay, so assuming for a moment that the legal fees cannot be claimed and are reasonable, what about the interest that has/is accruing?

 

Can their fees be considered reasonable in light of the fact that the bank never offered us any payment plan whatsoever or proffered any solution, and were simply determined to proceed to Court?

 

There is another issue which has been a gripe since the matter went to Court and we repaid the full outstanding arrears a month later. We have had problems with arrears a few times, and on a couple of occasions the matter was referred to the bank's sols. We were informed they would simply apply for a Warrant which would have resulted in them being able to evict us from the property in a couple of weeks.

 

My issue is, we paid the original outstanding arrears in full, so surely they would have to issue new proceedings, not according to the bank. As far as they're concerned any situation where the account falls into arrears means they can apply for a Warrant. How can this be fair, reasonable or accord with the CPR and the bank's responsibilities under MCOB for example, if they can hold us to ransom like this for the lifetime of the mortgage?

 

Yes, I know the smart answer is, don't get into arrears, but I do not see how the interests of justice are served by them being able to use an order they obtained in 2006 for arrears that were cleared in full. It would be understandable if there were sums still outstanding from back then, but that's not the case, so surely any arrears situation that arises subsequently should be subject to a new claim if agreement cannot be reached regarding payments?

 

Thoughts appreciated.

 

Figgy.

[Lea_HTH]

Things were different back in 2006,

so whether they complied with everything they were supposed to do then,

would depend on what they were obliged to do.

 

The legal fees are interest bearing - they were legitimately claimed and as such are legitimately subject to interest until paid.

 

If you paid the full outstanding arrears, 6-9 months later you should have applied to have the possession order discharged.

If you did not, and fell into arrears within a six year period of the original PO, then the bank are correct,

all they have to do is apply to execute the warrant, and you don't get notification of that (though most mortgagees will inform you of their intention)

 

- what you get is the notice of eviction from the bailiffs.

If the arrears result after the six year period then they have to apply to the court for permission to apply for the warrant of execution

- which, if you are in several months of arrears at that stage, will usually be granted, unless it is unreasonable to do so,

e.g. there was some concrete reason for the arrears and you have since shown that the situation has stabilised and are back in a position to pay.

 

The judge at that stage also has the right to strike out the application, and the possession order simply sits there until the mortgagee applies for permission again.

 

It is all within the CPR and is not an abuse of process. They hold a valid court order - it was up to you to apply to discharge it.

 

I am sorry it's not what you want to hear, but it is the way it is under the current law.

[Figgydoody]

Thanks for your comments Lea.

 

It isn't a question of not wanting to hear comments that don't concur with my take on things, I just expect to be treated fairly by the mortgage company and the Court system, that's all.

 

I will have to research what they were obliged to do in 2006, to ascertain the degree to which they did not comply with their obligations, as they did plenty of things that one would frown upon now, but 7yrs ago and now are of course two entirely different scenarios.

 

The legal fees were nearer £600, I checked the p/work. Again, I guess research required and all the documentation from the bank to get a clear picture of what work exactly was undertaken by the sols for that £600 in fees to be applied to the a/c.

 

Having looked through the original p/work, I have found roughly a year's worth of spurious charges that the sols included in the Court claim, so the arrears stated were incorrect, which is an abuse of process.

 

We didn't know this at the time, and neither did we realise we should have applied for the order to be discharged once the arrears were paid. So, I think the fact that the original claim sought an amount in excess of what was actually owed because it included penalty charges, should be reason enough for that order to be discharged.

 

I agree that it was up to us to apply to have the order discharged, but it was also incumbent upon the bank to act honestly, and not inflate the amount claimed with penalty charges.

 

Figgy.

 

I meant to say also, as you will no doubt be aware, there are many different ways a party to a claim can abuse the processes of the Court. And whilst I have only referred to the penalty charges in my message, there are other issues which I believe amount to abuses, and I have every expectation that when all the p/work is provided by the bank numerous others will come to light.

 

Figgy.

[Figgydoody]

Hello all!

 

I am in the process of organising a schedule of charges in relation to the mortgage; late payments, counsellor visits etc...

 

My questions are:

 

I am looking to claim restitutionary damages in addition to the charges applied

and wanted to ask what interest rate is deemed reasonable to include in the spreadsheet?

 

Looks like charges go back to 2005, and we've been on the SVR for the past at least 7 years.

I'm not sure exactly what rate was charged though.

 

The other question is,

I have read with interest the financial penalties that were imposed on companies by the FSA (as it was)

for levying such charges, and that obviously bolsters one's argument for the repayment of said charges.

 

If, for some reason my claim was rejected,

do the MCOB rules have a provision for taking your lender to Court re unfair treatment,

just as BCOBS does?

 

I have no problem taking the matter to Court if necessary (will avoid the Ombudsman at all costs),

but I was wondering is it dependent on which lender it is that will determine how amenable they are to settle?

 

All advice appreciated!

 

Figgydoody.

[citizenB]

Hi FG.. responding to your message For future reference, you can send an S.O.S to the site team by clicking on the triangle at the bottom of each post. This will alert site team to your thread/query

 

I will ask someone to have a peek for you

[dx100uk]

same mortgage?

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?409044-Reclaiming-Mortgage-admin-fees-amp-Solicitors-dubious-charges!

dx

[Figgydoody]

Thanks CB! Duly noted!

 

 

Figgy.

[Figgydoody]

Hi DX,

 

 

Yep, same mortgage. Completely forgot I had posted the information last year!lol

 

 

Could you help me out with the couple of questions I've asked in this thread?

 

 

Thanks,

 

 

Figgy.

[dx100uk]

for sake of history

 

threads merged.

 

not sure on going for interest in restitution mind.

 

not my bag

slick132 I think is up on tat one.

 

if you've not already seen these

 

then what you mention about

previous 'fines' for these actions is detailed below

amongst other things.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?296108-Hot-news-for-anyone-who-has-suffered-mortgage-arrears-charges-irresponsible-lending-or-other-unfair-lender-conduct

 

Hi

.

Just to let you know this bunch Kensington have been fined £1.225m by the financial regulator

for treating borrowers who were in arrears unfairly.

.

Claim those charges back plus the interest and tell them not to add any more to the account.

.

There are a few news stories here you can get the info for a letter to send to them.

.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/8615870.stm

.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/p...y-the-FSA.html

.

http://www.fsa.gov.uk/library/commun...2010/065.shtml

.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/money/2010...mortgages-fine

.

http://www.moneymarketing.co.uk/news-and-analysis/mortgages/fca-orders-kensington-to-change-unfair-mortgage-terms/2005762.article

http://www.mortgageintroducer.com/mortgages/236498/5/Industry_in_depth/Thousands_of_homeowners_set_for_big_mortgage_refunds.htm

[Figgydoody]

Hi DX,

 

 

Thanks for merging the threads and for all the links to the useful info-much appreciated!

 

 

I have had a read of previous judgments and fines imposed by the FSA and the details certainly make for very interesting reading!

 

 

Could you possibly ask Slick to take a look at the questions I've posed when he/she has a moment? Thanks.

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Figgy.

[slick132]

Hi Figgy,

 

I'm baffled too as I thought I posted last night, but Hey Ho, maybe the Gremlins were having fun !!

 

Can you confirm what bank or lender we are discussing here. This may be relevant to the advice we offer.

 

Is the a/c paid up to date now or are there arrears.

 

If there are arrears, is there an arrangement to clear them and have you been able to stick to it.

 

[Figgydoody]

Hi Slick,

 

 

Yes, I think the gremlins have been having fun!

 

 

The lender is sharkleys. Yes, arrears still on the account. No arrangement to clear the arrears in place, complex situation, would rather not elaborate on that. Suffice to say no action being taken by them at present.

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Figgy.

[slick132]

Hi Figgy,

 

As this is a Barclays case, I would certainly reclaim penalty charges and compound restitutionary interest on top. Even though the mortgage rate is lower than Credit Card rates, I would still suggest using a nominal compound rate of 24.9% as Barclays will have used your money to lend to others at higher rates

 

To enable us to offer advice about what you should try to reclaim, can you confirm the approx value of :-

 

1. Normal penalty charges.

 

2. Other fixed fees such as debt counsellor visits.

 

3. Other admin fees.

 

[Figgydoody]

Hi Slick,

 

 

Thanks for the information.

 

 

I wanted to ask, what is the premise for seeking restitutionary interest at 24.9%? I just want to understand the reasoning behind claiming at that particular rate as opposed to a lower or higher rate?

 

 

For reasons I can't go into right now (but will do so either later or by PM if you wish) I don't want to get into the specifics of the types of charges they have levied, as I am considering some novel arguments that I don't want to disclose at this stage. Total amount of charges however are in the region of 7k. That doesn't include any interest, just the innumerable unlawful fees.

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Figgy.

[slick132]

Hi Figgy,

 

Restitutionary Interest is claimed so the defendant bank is not left "in profit" from having your money. Even though they may have only charged you interest at, say, 10%, they will have used that money in the course of their business, lending out to others and making a profit on it. Read a summary on the case of Sempra Metals v Inland Revenue Commissioners.

 

"Novel arguments" ?? You can always PM me or other Site Team if you want to run something by us without disclosing the details on-thread.

 

[Figgydoody]

Hi Slick,

 

 

I think you have slightly misunderstood my point.Lol I appreciate the basis upon which one would claim restitutionary damages, my question was related to why the rate of 24.9% has been chosen? Why is that an appropriate rate to claim? I'm not saying I have any problem with it, I just want to understand why that rate as opposed to something higher or lower? On what basis has it been deemed that 24.9% is the right rate?

 

 

As soon as I have fine tuned my novel arguments (lol) I will send you a PM with the details.

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Figgy.

[slick132]

Sorry Figgy, my mistake.

 

You could claim Rest'y Int't at the same rates that have been applied to the a/c, often called the contractual rate.

 

Or you can choose a nominal figure, which can literally be any figure.

 

The reason I suggested 24.9% is because Barclays Litigation have continued to settle cases, paying compound int't at this rate, over the last several years. See the BC and Barclays Successes forums for evidence of this.

 

As said before, even though you may have paid a much lower mortgage rate, Barclays still use the money to lend at far higher rates in the course of their lending.

 

[Figgydoody]

No probs Slick.

 

 

I don't plan to claim at the rate applied to the account, 24.9% sounds just fine to me! As you say, Sharkleys have used the money to lend at much higher rates and given us no end of grief too and therefore I think that is a reasonable rate.

 

 

Any thoughts on the claim value, which is likely to be up around 20k?

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Figgy.

[slick132]

Hi Figgy,

 

A value of £20K will put your claim firmly on Fast Track. This brings with it the prospect of higher legal fees than if it were heard on the Small Claims Track and a greater risk of costs being awarded against you if you lost. The bank can afford to pay out whatever it costs to defend but, if you lost, you could be ordered to pay costs of maybe between £5K to £10K.

 

Can you confirm, are you just reclaiming penalty charges for when you defaulted or are you also claiming for visits and/or their legal costs, plus compound int't on top.

 

[Figgydoody]

Evening Slick!

 

 

Of course, understood, the amount puts the case on the Fast Track. That said, I assume I am not alone as someone having a claim in excess of 10k, by virtue of charges and claiming 24.9% restitutionary interest?

 

 

Have such cases in excess of 10k proceeded to Court? Or settled before? Have any such cases gone to trial? I ask these questions because in view of the decisions of the FSA (as it was) regarding Redstone and others, it's impossible in my view for the bank to argue their charges are reasonable? There is an almost identical set of facts regarding the reasons Redstone and others were fined, and my situation.

 

 

I am claiming all of the items you have listed and yes, restitutionary interest. I know you may query reclaiming legal fees. That said, under MCOBS it's unfair that the bank never offered us any solution re the arrears and forced the matter to Court. The judgment in Redstone and DB Mortgages is very clear about proceeding to legal action and not offering any real solutions to the customer!

 

 

Regards,

 

 

Figgydoody.