ESA submission

[mr_mastiff]

If you can't walk, they'd suggest you use a wheelchair. So you'd have to explain why you can't use a wheelchair.

 

Thankyou Nystagmite due to the injury to his lower back I would suggest that a wheelchair would place a huge amount of pressure to the discs in his lower spine and could cause greater damage and disability. His only option with that injury would an electric wheelchair. He would still be left with the problem of not being able to sit for any period of time.

[mr_mastiff]

nice one yeah i'll pinch that

cheers

 

John would this be true of sitting and standing.

 

(b) Cannot, for the majority of the time, remain at a work station either:

(i) standing unassisted by another person (even if free to move around);

or

(ii) sitting (even in an adjustable chair)

or

(iii) a combination of (i) and (ii).

for more than 30 minutes, before needing to move away in order to avoid

significant discomfort or exhaustion.

Due to the damage to my spine in my lumber region I am unable to stand or sit for periods longer than 20 minutes partly due to the pain I have radiating into my legs and the pins and needle sensation I have in my lower limbs. If I remain for longer I can experience severe muscle spasm in the muscles of my lower back. It takes a great amount of time for the muscle spasm to pass. At times I need to take diazepam to counter this.

[**Margaret**]

:John B/ham:

 

And if you can't walk more than 100 metres explain how you get to the doctor, cope with shopping, etcetera. 100 metres might not get you to a bus stop, and certainly won't get you round the average supermarket.

 

Once you've got the shopping, can you sit at a table for long enough to prepare food and stand for long enough to cook it? Do you eat meals/use your computer at a table or propped up with cushions on the sofa?

 

Margaret.

[mr_mastiff]

:John B/ham:

 

And if you can't walk more than 100 metres explain how you get to the doctor, cope with shopping, etcetera. 100 metres might not get you to a bus stop, and certainly won't get you round the average supermarket.

 

Once you've got the shopping, can you sit at a table for long enough to prepare food and stand for long enough to cook it? Do you eat meals/use your computer at a table or propped up with cushions on the sofa?

 

 

Margaret.

 

Hi margaret i believe this is the descriptor that john is relating to.

 

© Cannot either:

(i) mobilise more than 100 metres on level ground without stopping in

order to avoid significant discomfort or exhaustion;

or

(ii) repeatedly mobilise 100 metres within a reasonable timescale

because of significant discomfort or exhaustion.

9

 

You make some very interesting points. John needs to give us some details about domestic arrangements. If he is like the man I know it is microwave meals all the way.

[**Margaret**]

:mr_mastiff:

 

Thanx. I've had a lot of practice! Among my self-help group, and on CAG, we've come to the conclusion that examples from day to day life sometimes help, and certainly don't hinder, both ESA50s and tribunal submissions.

 

Margaret.

[John B/ham]

Goodnight all,

Thanks for all your help and advice

john

[mr_mastiff]

Starryeyes52 or someone with more experience than I. John states that he as difficulty walking 100m without pain. he as stated that he can walk further than this but it takes a great deal of time. I.E 15 minutes for a journey that would take a "normal" person 3 or 4 minutes. This would met © (ii) of the descriptors. These descriptors are relevant to the work place. Why should the tribunal take domestic arrangements into consideration when the assessment is fitness for the work place. I arrange my home to match my physical abilities. Something which I would not be able to do in the work place.

 

edited, Sorry margaret i think you have already answered my question cross post. thankyou.

[**Margaret**]

:mr_mastiff:

 

You're correct in that the descriptors for the current work capability assessment reflect prescribed activities that are relevant to the workplace. But Atos assessors are trained to look at how claimants cope with the same tasks in the activities of daily living, getting from A to B, cooking, shopping, finances, learning, caring for children and pets, etcetera. Explanations of how one copes within functional limitations help to pre-empt the Atos assumptions, and should a case go to tribunal, the appellant's better prepared to give oral evidence.

 

Examples that I've encountered recently;

 

Have a cat and a dog? Atos assume you can lug the cat litter from the supermarket and walk at least 200 metres across the park to exercise the dog, unless you explain that the cat litter is ordered online and the neighbour's teenager gets £15 per week to walk the dog. (Mastiffs included.)

 

Claimant tells Atos they cook, but doesn't get the chance to explain it's a microwave ready meal!

 

Claimant tells Atos they answer the phone/doorbell but doesn't get the chance to say they check the caller display/hide under the duvet if a visitor isn't expected. Bit different to taking calls in the office!

 

Not to mention the claimant who was (correctly) refused a descriptor for social interaction cos she went into her kids' school to help with reading.

 

Margaret.

 

And cos it takes Margaret forever to type, we've crossed posts again.

Edited October 19, 2013 by **Margaret**

[mr_mastiff]

:mr_mastiff:

 

You're correct in that the descriptors for the current work capability assessment reflect prescribed activities that are relevant to the workplace. But Atos assessors are trained to look at how claimants cope with the same tasks in the activities of daily living, getting from A to B, cooking, shopping, finances, learning, caring for children and pets, etcetera. Explanations of how one copes within functional limitations help to pre-empt the Atos assumptions, and should a case go to tribunal, the appellant's better prepared to give oral evidence.

 

Examples that I've encountered recently;

 

Have a cat and a dog? Atos assume you can lug the cat litter from the supermarket and walk at least 200 metres across the park to exercise the dog, unless you explain that the cat litter is ordered online and the neighbour's teenager gets £15 per week to walk the dog. (Mastiffs included.)

 

Claimant tells Atos they cook, but doesn't get the chance to explain it's a microwave ready meal!

 

Claimant tells Atos they answer the phone/doorbell but doesn't get the chance to say they check the caller display/hide under the duvet if a visitor isn't expected. Bit different to taking calls in the office!

 

Not to mention the claimant who was (correctly) refused a descriptor for social interaction cos she went into her kids' school to help with reading.

 

Margaret.

 

And cos it takes Margaret forever to type, we've crossed posts again.

 

Thankyou, I will know better next time, The devil is in the detail, cheers MM.

[mr_mastiff]

Hi John I can see you are on the forum. Any more questions yet? if you have post them. I need to go out soon for about an hour. So if you post I will not be able to get back to you until 1- 1.30 ish. Cheers MM

[John B/ham]

Hi, yeah back on , i gave up last night,thought just fone tribunal on monday and cancel, i've just been re-reading the thread, and theres a lot of posts i missed, most of starryeyes (sorry) but still struggling so dont no wat to do?

thank for the offf, mm

[John B/ham]

offer*

[John B/ham]

allso , i've got a sick note in , till christmas,,if im found fit for work do i have to get a new one or does the one till chrismas stil apply

thanks

[mr_mastiff]

John please do not give up, It does not matter that you have missed posts we can work our way around them.

[John B/ham]

ok, thanks for the support, im pretty useless at forms at the best of times , an this is like climbing Everest

[mr_mastiff]

John I am here as long as you need me. You have completed your introduction and on the physical side wrote about walking and sitting/stand and matched them to descriptors. You now need to state the problems you have physically with your home environment. For example who shops for you/ Do you shop online?

 

What problems do you have cooking? Do you live on ready meals or out of cans because you have difficulty preparing food.

 

What problems do you have cleaning your home. When I am bad nothing above 2 feet high gets done and the wife takes over. If you live on your own and you struggle to keep the house clean then state that. There is no shame in admitting you have problems.

 

Have a think about it and put notes down on the post and I will have a go at wording it for you.

[John B/ham]

ok people, thanks again i dont no when i'll be back on, as ive been at a friends all wkend to try and get it sorted, as i dont have internet, or a printer,and was hoping to get it dont here

will let u no how i get on

thanks a bunch for your help

john

[**Margaret**]

:John B/ham:

 

Right, hopefully you've had a break n some sleep. Deep breaths n back to #68. One descriptor at a time.

 

Fresh sheet of A4, headed up with;

 

'Cannot mobilise more than 100 metres on level ground ......'

 

Quote whatever Atos have said about your ability to mobilise.

 

Write sentences to explain that cos of disc protrusion you can't mobilise 100 metres without repeated stops to allow pain to subside. If you've got any supportive medical evidence about the damage to your spine, enclose a copy and refer the tribunal to it.

 

Write a sentence to explain why you can't use a chair or other walking aids.

 

Write a few more sentences to explain how you get to the doctor/hospital and cope with shopping etcetera.

 

Rinse with a cup of coffee n have a kip on the . Then repeat with the rest of the descriptors that apply to you.

 

Do you mind if I ask when your tribunal is scheduled for? A submission can be sent directly to a tribunal venue, or as a last resort you can take three copies with you on the day. A tribunal panel may find time to read late evidence, or they may adjourn, but they can't refuse to accept it without good reason. Or you can front up anyway. A written submission helps, but it isn't a pre requisite. And the work you've already done will inform your answers to the tribunal's questions.

 

If you feel you've no alternative but to withdraw your appeal, Jobcentreplus will disallow assessment rate employment n support from the date of withdrawal. The Med 3 (unfit) note remains valid until it expires. But a new claim for employment n support, if it's more than six months since the date of the initial disallowance, or jobseekers may get processed quicker if it's accompanied by a new Med 3.

 

Sincerely, Margaret.

Edited October 20, 2013 by **Margaret**

[John B/ham]

hi starryeyes

thx for all that in above post, I think I've managed to get my submission finished just dotting the I and crossing the t's, my tribunal is on the 24th, so looks like I have to take it with me , or can I have it took up in person? by a relative? get it signed for , plus it saves me carrying it

thx

john

[mr_mastiff]

hi starryeyes

thx for all that in above post, I think I've managed to get my submission finished just dotting the I and crossing the t's, my tribunal is on the 24th, so looks like I have to take it with me , or can I have it took up in person? by a relative? get it signed for , plus it saves me carrying it

thx

john

 

WELL DONE! Make sure you take 3 copies as starryeyes states. let us know how you get on . Good luck.

[John B/ham]

Hiya as promised,

to let you know i failed in my appeal,

recievied the result today,

so just wondering what do do next, go job centre in morning, or make a new claim ? the last fit note i sent in, isn' up till the middle of Dec, or will that be ignored now i bin told im fit for work?

thx john

[Nystagmite]

Sorry to hear that.

 

You need to make a new claim.

[John B/ham]

Thx for that, Nystagmite

Can i do it online ?

[John B/ham]

Hi all , hope everyone's ok

just a quickie if you please, is there a template on here i could use to request the statement of reasons, from the tribunal,

thanks john

[**Margaret**]

:John B/ham:

 

To hear you lost your appeal. Unfortunately the increasingly harsh criteria for an award of employment n support have more to do with the ConDems' cuts than capability for work.

 

Don't think we've got a template to request the statement of reasons for a tribunal decision but you don't really need one. Just needs a letter along the lines of, 'this letter is to request the judge's statement of reasons (and record of proceedings?) for case number ...... heard on ...... at ......'

 

Before you can make a new claim online for either employment n support (if it's more than six months since the date of the fit for work decision) or jobseekers, you need to wait for notification that Jobcentreplus have closed your current claim. May be a letter, or money not in the bank.

 

Once you get the statement of reasons, read it carefully with a copy of the descriptors in the other hand, so you can make an informed decision about which benefit to claim. Should you decide to claim jobseekers, ask to see a disability employment adviser. You may be able to negotiate reduced conditionality.

 

Best wishes, Margaret.

Edited November 1, 2013 by **Margaret**