DVLA taking me to court for uninsured motor vehicle. Please Help.

[abdul1981]

This is what the DVLA have sent me.

 

[ATTACH=CONFIG]46474[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]46475[/ATTACH]

 

I'll try to keep it brief as I can.

 

In March/April this year I paid the DVLA £50 for the car not being insured and took their advice that the car needed to be SORN. The vehicle was not being used due to water leak problems. ( car was still taxed but insurance cancelled)

Took the advice and sent off SORN and left it at that. Come 2nd week of August I receive this requisition. Within a week i plead not guilty (on behalf of wife- as it his her car) and wait.

Last week 11th Sept, I begin to worry as I have not heard from them. I contact DVLA only to be moved from pillar to post, Find out vehicle has never been made SORN so do it over the phone there and then. Advised to write to the Enforcement Centre as apparently this is the only way you can contact them.

 

Again, 16th Sept, worrying about no correspondence back, I call DVLA who ask me to call the courts. Eventually i speak to the appointed witness this morning (17th Sept)

 

If i have put in a no guilty plea the case will be adjourned and ill be informed soon and maybe have a trial (!!) nearer to home in two to four weeks. There will still be a hearing which i don't need to attend!

 

Speak to the dvla appointed witness, who says i don't have a leg to stand on. The car had lapsed insurance but still had tax. I originally paid fine to stop it going to court but the MIB checked again in June and the car was still uninsured therefore this is why i am going to court. I explained that once I paid my initial fine I sought advice and was told to SORN. I did this. He then asked whether I received an acknowledgement letter to confirm the SORN. i had not received it and he then went on to tell me that its my duty to call the DVLA and find out what is happening. I explained Ii had done what was required of me.

Further more he also mentioned that while the car is still taxed you cannot SORN it.

 

So, is there any advice or solicitor I can be referred to as it looks as though I will end up going to court. I did ask about changing the plea to guilty and pay the fine but this is unjust as I have not used the car illegally or anything.

 

All help would be soo appreciated as I am stuck on what I need to do.

[silverfox1961]

Hi and welcome to CAG. Sorry your first post was missed.

 

I am just giving you a bump onto todays posts in the hope someone with experience can assist

[Kiki1]

Further more he also mentioned that while the car is still taxed you cannot SORN it.

 

I don't believe that is true, you can have a valid tax disc (if you have not surrendered it for example because there is less than two months left on it, or you think it would never get to the DVLA in time for a refund).

 

Was the car on the road or off road when you were sent the penalty ?

[abdul1981]

Since last November the vehicle has been off the road.

It just makes sense that there was no need to take out insurance if car was parked up off road. Tax and MOT was still in place.

 

So as mentioned a fine was paid in April for a penalty notice served in March (insurance had not been in place for a while)

Advice was taken from DVLA to SORN the vehicle, and DVLA did not receive this.

 

So the prosecutor is stating that I had to call up if no acknowledgement letter was sent from DVLA after four weeks and the vehicle would not have been able to be SORN as tax was still on it.

 

Is it my responsibiility to contact DVLA to chase up SORN ? Also, there was only 7-8 weeks of tax left anyway.

 

I'm thinking of looking into Legal Aid or finding a criminal solicitor as this is causing sleepness nights. Would this be the right course to go?

[Kiki1]

Advice was taken from DVLA to SORN the vehicle, and DVLA did not receive this.

 

So the prosecutor is stating that I had to call up if no acknowledgement letter was sent from DVLA after four weeks and the vehicle would not have been able to be SORN as tax was still on it.

 

Is it my responsibiility to contact DVLA to chase up SORN ? Also, there was only 7-8 weeks of tax left anyway.

Are you certain you had a valid/current tax disc on the vehicle when the DVLA sent out a fine ?

 

If not it looks like the insurance issue is a red herring, the DVLA simply wish to raid your wallet for the lack of SORN at their end. They might of course have received it, but you have no proof of that. A Freedom of Information request might liberate details of the number of SORN applications that should be received by the DVLA each month, and the number that are correctly processed at Swansea, giving you a number that supposedly get lost in the post or are abducted by aliens.

 

You could check the remainder of your V5C to see if there is any reason why your vehicle has not been acknowledged as on SORN by them, it could be something as simple as a single digit error on the number plate or frame/chassis number

 

A solicitor at this stage is probably unneccessary, other threads will point you as to how best to proceed.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Kiki1

[Raykay]

According to the OP's posts, the DVLA claim is for keeping a vehicle which does not meet the insurance requirement, contrary to s.144A, Road Traffic Act 1988.

 

He sent a SORN declaration, but DVLA lost it.

Edited September 18, 2013 by Raykay

[Kiki1]

According to the OP's posts, the DVLA claim is for keeping a vehicle which does not meet the insurance requirement, contrary to s.144A, Road Traffic Act 1988.

 

I understand that, even though I do not quite understand how vehicle licencing has now been tethered to an insurance policy, but hey ho.

 

My reasoning stems from the o/p's other claim that the vehicle was not on a road at the time of the penalty arriving, though it was taxed. How does the specific section of the Road Traffic Act work when the car or motorcycle is covered for vehicle excise duty but is highly unlikely ever to meet a third party, and the duty is not going to be refunded ?

Edited September 18, 2013 by Kiki1

[Raykay]

I understand that, even though I do not quite understand how vehicle licencing has now been tethered to an insurance policy, but hey ho.

 

My reasoning stems from the o/p's other claim that the vehicle was not on a road at the time of the penalty arriving, though it was taxed. How does the specific section of the Road Traffic Act work when the car or motorcycle is covered for vehicle excise duty but is highly unlikely ever to meet a third party, and the duty is not going to be refunded ?

 

A registered vehicle is required to be be both licensed and insured (on road or off).

 

However, if it is not the road, a SORN declaration can be made instead of the licence and insurance requirement.

[Kiki1]

A registered vehicle is required to be be both licensed and insured (on road or off).

 

However, if it is not the road, a SORN declaration can be made instead of the licence and insurance requirement.

 

The o/p's vehicle was licenced though, so this RTA s144a amendment does little more than add one further document of compliance into the mix (under the thin veil of road safety), in order to extricate additional £s from the owner.

[abdul1981]

The o/p's vehicle was licenced though, so this RTA s144a amendment does little more than add one further document of compliance into the mix (under the thin veil of road safety), in order to extricate additional £s from the owner.

 

@raykayvand @kiki1, thanks for your comments. Do you think I have a case to make. Or do I save the agro and buckle and take the fine..

[darashen]

Just a thought on this matter the OP states he took advise from the DVLA and paid them £50 to place the vehicle on SORN when he received the first fine.

 

The DVLA do not charge to SORN a vehicle or for advise but a number of sites have been set up by companies offering to carry out services for a fee (normally £50). These sites often look very official with only a small desclaimer to give the game away.

 

The question to the OP is could you have visited one of these websites for advise rather than the DVLA and paid them £50 to SORN your car. If this is the case and they then failed to regster the SORN with the DVLA could this be the basis of a successfull defence to the court action. I would suggest checking your bank statement to see who the £50 went to.

 

If the OP could post back on this point I am sure one of the more legally qualified people on this site will then be able to advise on how to go about defending the new fine and court summons.

 

Of course I could be completely wrong but it is an avenue worth checking on.

[abdul1981]

Just a thought on this matter the OP states he took advise from the DVLA and paid them £50 to place the vehicle on SORN when he received the first fine.

 

The DVLA do not charge to SORN a vehicle or for advise but a number of sites have been set up by companies offering to carry out services for a fee (normally £50). These sites often look very official with only a small desclaimer to give the game away.

 

The question to the OP is could you have visited one of these websites for advise rather than the DVLA and paid them £50 to SORN your car. If this is the case and they then failed to regster the SORN with the DVLA could this be the basis of a successfull defence to the court action. I would suggest checking your bank statement to see who the £50 went to.

 

If the OP could post back on this point I am sure one of the more legally qualified people on this site will then be able to advise on how to go about defending the new fine and court summons.

 

Of course I could be completely wrong but it is an avenue worth checking on.

 

I was sent a fine from the dvla. Paid it. Then called up dvla again and was advised to sorn vehicle. Downloaded from and posted.

[Helping the UK debt!]

Will try to keep this brief as most people here have the same problem. (sorry failed miserably but please read on, you may find the court bit interesting)

 

My daughters car went of road because of a fault June 2012. Taxed till 03/13. Insured till 11/12. Hope her boyfriend will repair it and get it back on the road for her.

 

Grandfather gets her another car in 10/12 so she transfers the insurance over to the new vehicle. From then on obviously no reminders or warnings from insurance company.

 

Unbeknown to me 12/12 she got an FPN for S144 and just paid it without asking anybody for advise (she had severe health issues at the time). Still hope the car will get repaired and back on the road. February 2013 a summons arrives for the same offence now dated 5th February.

 

Up till 2010 and having spent some 32 years in law enforcement I wondered what the hell was going on and did some research and can understand the logic behind this offence and whom it is aimed at.

 

No legal aid (representation at court) allowed as it is RTA offence.

 

Looked into exceptions for the offence (can't load link as new member) legislation.gov.uk and see S144 RTA1988 exceptions and thought that the 'outer' would be covered under S5 and subsequently 7(A) logically thinking that this exception was in place for such a situation. The main bit being the "make such declarations as may be prescribed, and to do so at such times and in such manner as may be prescribed"

 

Got the case transferred locally and went to court with my daughter. Firstly the magistrates were bemused as to why, given the circumstances the case had got that far but the clerk said it was an absolute offence (basically: do you have insurance or don't you. If you do and it is covered case dismissed, if not = guilty, simples as the meerkats say!) and so the magistrates went to deliberate whilst the clerk, the DVLA rep (nothing personal but a complete wet blanket who could only say 'it wasn't sorned' time after time) and myself to discuss the case.

 

When I mentioned the exceptions issue and what was meant by 'declaration and prescribed time'. I suggested that this referred to the 'SORN' notification and as the intention was always to repair the vehicle and it was taxed till March 13 we did not have to SORN it until then and this was duly done as required. The magistrates returned and it was agreed that the case be adjourned for us to get legal advise and the DVLA to seek clarification of the exceptions but we should expect to get notification of the case being withdrawn from the DVLA.

 

3 months later, no letter, back to court (different court same DVLA rep) How do you plead? Not guilty. Have you got your insurance? No didn't have it insured. Then you must plead guilty. Bring on the exception argument!!!! Magistrates leave us to it again. Clerk runs through 'absolute' again, I run through exception - stalemate again. What clarification have the DVLA got regarding this? This is why it was adjourned in the first place. Answer "It wasn't sorned" Feel we've been here before. Have you actually got any clarification? 'It wasn't sorned'. That will be "NO" then.

 

Anyway, as the offence was for 5th Feb and the tax expired end of Feb and was then sorned the DVLA discontinued the case.

 

The clerk said that the SORN had nothing to do with it yet when I said that if the car was sorned this case would not be here, and according to the DVLA the only evidence is 'it wasn't sorned'. She asked if we wished a full hearing. I asked the clerk at what point must we sorn the vehicle, the day it breaks down? 2 days later? when my daughter got her new car?when the insurance expires? I would suggest that we only have to sorn it when the tax expires. Her reply, 'as soon as it gets taken off the road. WHAT!!!!!! Every recovery driver should have direct access to the SORN data base so they can fill it in.

 

I would have liked to have had a full hearing so that this issue could be resolved and the exceptions bit clarified but for my daughters sake we left it at that. I still can't get any clarification on the exceptions as I feel we should also be able to claim back the FPN that my daughter paid.

 

If anyone out there can clarify the exceptions I would be extremely grateful.

 

Sorry - one more item. A friend gets a new car and transfers his insurance over. Old car, still taxed, sits on parent drive awaiting potential buyers. Have you got insurance? No, don't need it, it's on my mums drive. It is taxed though'. Hmm. 'Suggest you sorn it.' Explained new offence. 'How the bloody hell can I sell it? Sorry no test drives as no tax or insurance, but you can listen to her running.' Another can of worms has been opened.

 

Bye for now - if your still reading and haven't fallen asleep. Sorry again for long essay.

[Raykay]

An exception would be if the vehicle was SORN at the time, the requirement now is that the vehicle is both licensed and insured or SORN.

A SORN declaration can made in place of a licence, insurance, or both.

[Helping the UK debt!]

An exception would be if the vehicle was SORN at the time, the requirement now is that the vehicle is both licensed and insured or SORN.

A SORN declaration can made in place of a licence, insurance, or both.

 

If you look at the consultation paper that they did prior to instigating this you will understand the theory behind the offence and it is definitely aimed at the few lawless citizens who put up our insurance costs accordingly. Not law abiding people like my daughter.

 

If the vehicle is SORN it will not be subject to a computer scan for insurance cover and I don't have a problem with that - quite sensible really. If the vehicle is not sorn but taxed the 'assumption' is that it still being used on the road and will be subject to the insurance scan on the MIB computer.

 

The course of action in this case is for your insurance company to 'remind' you that your policy is about to expire/or has expired. If you fail to heed the reminder they will send out a warning. This is then followed up by an FPN from the DVLA and then Summons. In most of the cases pertaining to this thread people have their vehicles off the road for what is hopefully a short period and in between times use or buy another vehicle and so transfer their policy across. No reminders are therefore sent as the insurance company no longer have you on their books for that car, hence no warnings, hence an FPN out of the blue.

 

Can you answer the question regarding the exceptions I mentioned?

Can you tell me when the sorn must be made in circumstances such as ours? The moment it goes off road, the new car purchase, 2 days later, 2 months later? Or, as I would suggest, when the repair has been unable to be carried out AND when the tax expires.

 

cheers

[Raykay]

Can you answer the question regarding the exceptions I mentioned?

Can you tell me when the sorn must be made in circumstances such as ours? The moment it goes off road, the new car purchase, 2 days later, 2 months later? Or, as I would suggest, when the repair has been unable to be carried out AND when the tax expires.

cheers

 

 

It would be on or before the date of expiry of the current licence or insurance.

[Helping the UK debt!]

So lets put this in the 2 parts:

(1) when the tax runs out - and as the tax ran till the end of Feb 2013 there was no need to sorn the vehicle.

 

(2) if you go to the SORN page on the website it mentions the offence of keeping a vehicle without tax so you go to the link that takes you 'Driving and Transport' V890 and then you scroll down a little and see that they mention

 

"You can do this if you don’t use or keep your vehicle on a public road (for example, if you permanently keep it in a garage, on a drive or on private land). This will mean that you don’t have to buy a tax disc."

 

I would like to bring your attention to one word 'PERMANENT'. Now to me this would be interpreted as 'more than 'temporary' and in this case the intention was for the vehicle to be repaired asap and therefore there was no degree of permanency.

[Raykay]

So lets put this in the 2 parts:

(1) when the tax runs out - and as the tax ran till the end of Feb 2013 there was no need to sorn the vehicle.

 

(2) if you go to the SORN page on the website it mentions the offence of keeping a vehicle without tax so you go to the link that takes you 'Driving and Transport' V890 and then you scroll down a little and see that they mention

 

 

(1) SORN would be required from the date of which expired or was cancelled first, the licence or the insurance.

 

 

(2) Which website?

[Helping the UK debt!]

The 2 websites are: legislation.gov.uk for S144a RTA 1988 and the exceptions that follow on. DVLA SORN site for the 'permanency' bit. Sorry can't post links till I've done 10 entries.

TTFN

[Raykay]

DVLA SORN site for the 'permanency' bit. Sorry can't post links till I've done 10 entries.

TTFN

 

 

That is only an example, there is nothing in the legislation that requires the vehicle to be permanently off the road - only that it is not used or kept on the road. So in your case it should have been declared SORN when the insurance was transferred in 10/12, and as it wasn't, that is the reason for the FPN & summons.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Raykay

[topcat1802]

Wasn't the legislation changed recently. I thought that whether the car was taxed and on the road, or SORN it was still required to have insurance or have I misread this somewhere!

[Helping the UK debt!]

Morning, Yes it was and this is the extra legislation - it doesn't effect driving/using/having a vehicle on a road without insurance this was bought in as another attempt to get uninsured drivers off the road.

 

This new addition is being the 'keeper' of a vehicle that is not SORN and not having insurance, (the assumption that the vehicle is being used on a road). Hence when people ,like my daughter, have a vehicle temporarily off road awaiting repair or someone having bought a new vehicle and have their old one off road and waiting sale either have to have it insured or SORN it. You can no longer just leave it on your driveway, you must do one or other.

 

The question is open for debate as to when you should sorn a vehicle (as by so doing you then get ignored on the trawl that takes pace on the DVLA and insurance data bases). The consultation document states that the insurance company will remind you that it is due for renewal, no action - then they warn you. If you then do nothing the DVLA send you an FPN for £100, thank you - national debt being cleared nicely. However if you transfer your insurance over to a different vehicle you will not get a reminder or warning from your insurance company as that vehicle is no longer their concern. You will just receive an FPN from DVLA out of the blue.

 

So technically (impish advocate here again) you're car breaks down on Friday and you put it on your drive, so you get a temp and move the insurance across. You must now SORN the first vehicle or get it insured! The car gets repaired over the weekend and so Monday you now re-tax and move your insurance back. Vehicle breaks down again Tuesday and off road - you must sorn it or insure it again. Back on the road again Wednesday= tax and insure it. And for those cynics amongst you "it does happen". My fuel pump failed one day, repaired the next, failed 2 days later (faulty new pump), back on the road 2 days later, next week it fails again (blockage from old rubbish in tank having moved during repair) back a few days later. I got a temp and had to work around the insurance but should technically have sorn it 3 times in 2 weeks.

 

No, I'm not being childish, I'm beyond that. This is a new bit of legislation that needs tweaking before it gets out of hand and the countries debt cleared by over- paying drivers, again!

[Raykay]

The warning letter (if it is sent!!) would be from the DVLA, not the insurance company.

[Helping the UK debt!]

I'm abroad at the moment and do not intend to trawl the net for the consultation paper but in my initial reading of the paper I had the distinct impression the letter came form the insurance company. And in any case we did not get a letter from either party, just the FPN. Won't be back on forum for a couple of weeks but feel free to keep chucking the issue around.

[Raykay]

An insurance company would not know if the vehicle was SORN or not, it is the DVLA which trawl the insurance database and their database to identify vehicles that are neither insured nor SORN.