npower: Cubic Meters Vs Cubic Feet

[pandhandj]

All,

 

long story short...It looks like npower having been charging me for cubic meters of gas instead of cubic feet, since I joined them in Oct/Nov 2010. They have admitted this to me via telephone and on 7th August I raised a complaint with them.

 

I checked in with them this morning and although it's now over their 4 week turnaround for complaints, all they can tell me is it should be concluded in the next 2 - 3 weeks. How long does it take to recalculate a bill ???

 

Am I right in saying that I can go to ofgem after 8 weeks to complain about their service?

 

However, what worries me most is the possibility of a big bill at the end of their re-calculations.

 

As far as I can see, a cubic meter is much larger than a cubic foot. So, if my meter has clicked round 1000 digits in cubic feet and they have billed me for 1000 cubic meters, this then means that they have over charged me?

 

Can anyone confirm my logic, or suggest what I should do now?

 

thanks in advance,

 

pandhandj

[wobbly]

If you have been charged for cubic metres instead of cubic feet you have got a lot of money to come back ,your logic is right .A cubic metre contains 35.314667 cubic feet.Your in the money:-D

[pandhandj]

wobbly, thanks for the double check. Every time I talk to npower about this, they imply that I will owe them. They wont give any exact figures yet as they are "recalculating" my bill. I had done some mental arithmetic and come up with 35 myself, but apparently they use 2.89, or there abouts. I shall have to wait and see!

 

If they do owe me money, can I claim for the statutory 8% interest on any monies due back to me?

Edited September 6, 2013 by pandhandj
spelling

[wobbly]

You would have to ask someone with legal knowledge pandhandj ,although I would have thought at least they should compensate you as well as refund the overpayment.The BBC did an investigation ,might have been dont get done get don ,but I am sure if you do a search you will find a load of info to help you.

[pandhandj]

All, still no response from npower, but just checked online account and I have gone from over £400 in credit to £328 in debit. They have issued a bill for over £1700 going back to when I joined in Oct 2010. I'm still trying to work out their figures as there are lots of credits/debits to my account without explanation of where they came from.

I'll phone them tomorrow, but can any one suggest a course of action from here?

Thanks in advance.

[wobbly]

Trading Standards they should give advice or maybe industry regulator,looks like they have gone and calculated wrong way round!

[pandhandj]

All,

 

I spoke with npower this morning...

 

They have confirmed that since joining them in Oct 2010, they have been charging me for cubic metres of gas when my meter counts in cubic feet.

 

They said that they have recalculated all my old bills and anything over 1 year old has been discounted. So this leaves me about £700 out of pocket for the last year.

 

I asked them to explain their calculations for this, particularly how my bill had increased when they had been charging for m3 when I had been using ft3. The girl said it was all to do with the conversion to KwH. I asked her to expand on this, but she couldn't as she didn't know how to explain it.

 

I said that a m3 was much bigger than a ft3, she agreed and quoted a multiplier of 2.83 to convert. She then agreed that a m3 of fuel is around 2.83 times more expensive than a ft3. I then asked how could my bill go up if, for example, I had used 1000 units of gas, which they had charged me for 1000 m3 when in fact I had used 1000 ft3. She agreed with my logic, but said that the calculations changed the amounts.

 

She was very helpful, but couldn't get past this point. I asked if she could send me out a written copy of how they worked out what I owe them, which she will. She has also escalated this to an "executive complaint", which should be answered in 10 days. I asked her to note on my account that I disputed the figures on the new bill.

 

My initial complaint was raised on 07/08/13, so their 8 weeks are up on 02/10/13.

 

For they life of me I cant see how they work this out. Could some one (again) check my logic? Am I missing something obvious here?

 

thanks in advance,

[wobbly]

There is nothing wrong with your logic a cubic metre of gas contains 35.314667 cubic feet,There are two types of meter in common use in households.

 

Credit meters

 

Gas Rates

 

The majority of customers have a credit meter which records the amount of gas you use. Gas consumption is measured in units, i.e. hundreds of cubic feet for imperial meters. These gas units need to be multiplied by approximately 31.3 to convert from the units used according to the meter or bill into kilowatt-hours. Exact conversion figures from gas units to kilowatt hours for imperial meters are as follows:

•Multiply your units used by 2.83 to give you the number of cubic metres of gas used. (If you have a newer metric meter measuring gas in cubic metres you do not need to do this).

•Multiply by the temperature and pressure figure (1.02264).

•Multiply by colorific value (39.25)

•Divide by 3.6 to get the number of kilowatt hours (kWh)

 

You should find all these figures laid out on your gas bill.

 

With a credit meter you will receive a quarterly bill and someone will come and read your meter every six months. Estimated bills will be send out when there has not been a reading and you can call and give your actual reading for a more accurate bill.

 

When giving a meter reading, you may need your MPRN (Gas Meter Point Reference Number. This is the unique identifying number for your gas meter. It is a ten digit number and can be found on your gas bill.

 

It is sometimes referred to as a ‘M’ number.

look at http://www.gas=guide.org.uk

[wobbly]

I think its becoming clearer ,does your meter read in 100 cu feet ,not single cubic feet?

[citizenB]

If you haven't had a response by 2 October, then I would consider going to the regulator. I wonder how many others they have been overcharging in this manner.

 

They cannot come after you for any bill over 12 months. But, if they have been overcharging you then I think they are obliged to refund you regardless of how far back.

[citizenB]

Does this help ?

 

British Gas convert gas used from metric units into KWh

 

a.metric units used......

 

b.x calorific value........

 

c.x voulume correction... 1.0226400

 

d.+ metric conversion....3.6

 

e. =kWh

[pandhandj]

Guys,

 

 

just had a look at the meter. It has 4 white digits and 1 red smaller digit at the end.

 

Figures on it say: 212 ft3/h and .071ft3/rev - but the " . " could be a mark on the facia! 71ft3 seems more reasonable!

 

I understand the calcs you have posted. I just don't get what npower are doing,

[Surfer01]

You have been charged as per the meter digits. Your meter is in cubic feet. So when a meter clicks over 1 unit after 1 cubic foot has been used they have charged you for the unit as 1 cubic meter. To use the equivalent it should have clicked up 3 units. They based their calculation on the meter reading given and assumed wrongly that it was cubic meters when the meter was cubic feet. As they made the mistake I would pay them back at £10 per month and there is not much they can do about it. If they disagree, ask for a deadlock letter so you can escalate it. Seems Npower make a huge number of mistakes like this?

[wobbly]

Is it a schlumberger meter with 4 b/w digits and 2 red ones plus a printed zero.If so the last of the 4 b/w digits is 100 cu ft.Any chance of posting up two bills with readings without any personal info.

[wobbly]

I think that this is the problem you were saying your meter is reading cu ft,it is but its 100 cu ft on the last b/w digit so you actually owe them this is how its worked out below.

Your imperial meter units are actually in "Hundreds of Cubic Feet".

Multiply by 2.83 to get "Cubic Metres" [actually 2.8317108]

Multiply by Calorific Value of 39.2666 kWh per cubic metre - varies with the gas source

Apply volume correction factor 1.02264 - varies with the weather conditions

Multiply by the cost per kWh at High Initial Units charge and Lower other units charge.

Add 5% VAT if not included.

[pandhandj]

wobbly, yes its a schlumberger meter. It has 4 b/w digits and 1 smaller red digit, it also has ft3 stamped on it.

 

 

I have been going through their new bill and comparing to the old bills, here is an example...

 

OLD BILL (measured in m3)

14/10/11(8528) to 11/12/11 (8705) = 177m3 gas used => 2016kwh

 

NEW BILL

15/10/11 (8534) to 11/12/11 (8705) = 171 (100's cubic ft) = 5512 kwh

 

5512/2016 = 2.734 - approx. 2.83, their conversion factor (give or take the difference in meter readings/dates and the they have used slightly larger calorific values in the new bill too).

 

this pattern is also seen in comparisons of other old bills with the new one.

 

So are they saying that I have actually used 2.83 times more gas than they originally thought?

Edited September 17, 2013 by pandhandj
spelling

[wobbly]

Fraid so,I can see how confusion arises ,initialy you said meter reading in cu ft when actually reading in 100 cu ft,1 cubic metre is smaller than 100 cu ft.Hence 2.83 times more gas.What a bummer.

[pandhandj]

Och well, these things happen

 

Out of interest, how can I tell it counts 100's ft3 rather than ft3?

 

Oh and thanks for all your input wobbly.

[wobbly]

No problem pandhandj ,I feeel a bit gutted for you.The two red numbers on your meter it reads 0096.20

[amydot]

Hi Panhandj I work for gas and electricity supplier. Not the one in question but another of the major ones.

I don't know what N Powers procedure is for the 4/5 dial mix up but have come across this in the company I work for.

You need to follow complaints procedure with N Power. If then the dispute is not resolved to your satisfaction you then contact the regulator. Normally the regulator wont assist unless you hsve followed the company's internal complaints procedure.

1st step which you have already done is to contact customer services and register your complaint.

2nd step. If the complaint has not been resolved you ask for it to be referred to executive complaints team and request they contact you by phone or letter.

3rd step. If this has not resolved matters the exec team will refer the complaint to head of customer relations for review.

4th step. You will receive a final response letter which will explain their final position.

If you receive your final response letter or they haven't been able to resolve your complaint within 8 weeks you have the right to go to the regulator.

The energy companies also have something caked "The billing code" you need to be asking if your case falls within the billing code.

If you do end up having to pay then you can ask to repay the amount over the amount of time you have been billed incorrectly.

Hope this helps.

[amydot]

Please excuse spelling mistakes, doing this on iPhone and small screen

[pandhandj]

Guys, just had a girl from the executive complaints team on the phone. Npower have offered £50 off the £328 I now owe them. This is a good will gesture on their behalf. My choices are this on the ombudsman. I'm swaying towards the £50.

 

Any opinions welcomed,

 

Thanks to all in advance.

[amydot]

If your ok with the £50 I would ensure you have the balance spread over a long time.

I would personally say no I won't accept £50 I think you could ask to meet them half way and to repay the

balance over a shorter period of time if you are in a position to do this.

[Surfer01]

Guys, just had a girl from the executive complaints team on the phone. Npower have offered £50 off the £328 I now owe them. This is a good will gesture on their behalf. My choices are this on the ombudsman. I'm swaying towards the £50.

Any opinions welcomed,

Thanks to all in advance.

 

I would escalate to Ombudsman as you may get it all written off as they made the mistake.

[pandhandj]

Amy, Surfer,

 

thanks for your replies. I have been doing a wee bit of reading this morning. Npower posted first half 2013 profits of £176,000,000. Which translates to the £328 I owe them being wiped out in 29.4 seconds. Since this issue was entirely created by them and considering the amount of time and effort (phone calls, meter readings, etc) I have gone through in the last 7 weeks, not to mention the stress of it all. I have decided that if they are not prepared to give me a clean slate, I will take it to the Ombudsman.

 

Does any one know how much they are charged by the Ombudsman for a complaint? I haven't been able to find out this morning.

 

The girl last night said that if I didn't except their offer of £50, they wold be forced to send out a final letter. So it looks like that's what I'll do. She is going to call back tonight for my decision.

 

thanks again to all,