Ircas fine and contesting it

[Stigy]

Honeybee, I have already apologised if my replies were terse and it's not that I don't like the advice, Apart from Old-Cod-Ja who'se reply was well constructed and welcome, I just consider rest of the forum replies have only been to 'save' myself from a court appearance. Absolutely nothing, zip, about how to go about maybe contesting the extra unfair charges, whom to best take my complaint to or letter templates etc which I would have expected from fellow consumers, hence my suspicions.

It was never my intention to get drawn into a defensive argument but I couldn't sit back and be told I went out of my way to break the law and I have to pay up tough! when that was never the situation.

I am not going to post back anymore - except to say thank you to posts since I want be able to post other questions in future if needed without having an unwarranted 'reputation'.

Thank you to all for your time.

 

[sarcasm]Crack on and appeal the failed appeal, then appeal again....I think you'll win against the nasty TOC![/sarcasm]

[BulliedBySWT]

Old-Codja, thanks for the very good reply, it's appreciated amongst the unwarranted childish sarcasm of others. I understand what you've put but I am further confused since SWT have twice now put it in writing that they cannot help as it is out of their hands and they cannot discuss it since it is a legal matter with IRCAS. However, from everything you've and a couple of tothers have said, all roads do lead back to SWT to make the final decision as to whether to take to court so in effect they have always been in a position to make a decision and end the process. Lies or a serious bending of truth?

[Old-CodJA]

Lies or a serious bending of truth?

 

Again, I am not going to advise you to take any particular course of action, I will explain the procedure and the choice is yours.

 

SWT have put the file with IRCAS who deal with the Penalty Fares process for them.

 

It remains as an unpaid penalty fare, which remains an unresolved civil matter and as you have already been advised, SWT should not intervene in the process defined by PF rules. A penalty fare is not a 'fine'. I know that it is still a demand for a payment, but it is a wholly civil matter at that stage. Only the Courts have the authority to impose fines.

 

It seems that IRCAS have now referred this to their debt collection agency, which is a final step before referring the file back to the SWT Prosecutor if that process fails to achieve resolution. At this point SWT may decide to issue a summons, or summonses.

 

Before issuing any summons, SWT are likely to look at any record of previous incidences of travelling without ticket logged in your name and given that you have identified 3 separate incidents within the past 8 months, I suggest that they are likely to proceed.

 

You don't say how long ago this incident took place, but based on the evidence provided by you so far, I can say that I doubt many other TOCs would have waited too long before proceeding to prosecution.

 

That said, they have 6 months from commission of the alleged offence in which to lay the information before a Court office for granting of a Summons.

 

National Railway Byelaw 18.2 (2005) says that; if any person fails to show a ticket when asked, s/he may be prosecuted and on conviction, s/he may be liable to a fine not exceeding £1000.

 

You failed to show a ticket. You are guilty of that offence. What happened in respect of tickets produced by you on days before, or since, is irrelevant.

 

The prosecutor only needs to show that you did not comply with that Byelaw at the time of travel in order to secure conviction.

 

Any argument that you may pursue about the PF appeal process is an entirely separate issue.

 

If this proceeds to Court and you are convicted, the prosecutor will ask the Magistrates to award the prosecution costs in full and if pressed as to how these costs arise may advise the court that all of these costs are incurred because of your actions in failing to show a ticket when asked necessitating issue of a report, and by your failure to respond to repeated opportunities to resolve the matter. The prosecutor will be at liberty to show Magistrates that through the letters sent by their agents, the TOC have given you a number of chances to avoid court action, which all incurred cost to the company.

 

You have previously been advised that you can pay now, which will prevent further administration costs being added and will prevent prosecution.

 

If you ultimately decide to take that opportunity, you may continue to pursue the claim that you believe you have been treated unfairly and in time, if you are vindicated, any payment you have made, or part of it, may be refunded.

 

I really don't think that I can help you further.

Edited September 17, 2013 by Old-CodJA

[BulliedBySWT]

Thanks Old-Codja, understood. The process is probably deliberately confusing as to me it seems SWT always have an input, at any stage.

 

The PF was issued on 08 February so over 7 months have transpired. Yes 3 'offences' but one was legitimately covered by a season ticket, though I guess the auto system won't differentiate so scrutiny by SWT required (doubtful).

 

I am awaiting a reply from SWT from latest letter but don't honestly expect reply and then will probably be forced to pay but I will continue to seek recompense or recognition of these situations by all legal means necessary as I'm not first to be caught out and wont be the last.

 

"He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself."

Edited September 17, 2013 by honeybee13
Pejorative term.

[BulliedBySWT]

Hi, alsobulliedbyswt, for some reason I got notice of your comment but follow the link and I can't see it. So just in case you get email update notice yourself here goes: Firstly, do NOT take the advice of some people on here whom may be SWT shareholders or employees! You can see who is who and determine for yourself.

 

Secondly, it was not resolved to my liking. Unfortunately the bandit of SWT and IRCAS are exactly that. They threaten you and pass the buck never doing anything but writing letters, avoiding phones like plague and then threatening you further. SWT say you owe the fine to IRCAS and therefore you must discuss with them and IRCAS state you must discuss the issue with SWT since they issued the fine. Basically they are telling you to FCUK off. They basically state the 'fine' is a courtesy and they will simply upon - non payment - quash the fine and instigate criminal trespass against you instead. It is extremely criminal of them and I hope someone more able than myself sues the backside off them one of these days.

 

I could have; with a little more digging and knowledge; avoided payment but in the end I did relent but only after about 7 months. However, I did not realise at time that unless they instigate proceedings against you WITHIN six months of the fine issued date then they cannot do so. I could have simply not paid and let them rant on so if you can stretch it out to 6 months without them issuing proceedings then you can tell them where to royally stuff it. Of course by then they may have decided to put a few more beers on the xmas party tab making you pay for them in process.

 

They are truly c***s of the worst sort and I no longer use them quite literally having changed job to avoid them, I get paid more and they dont get a penny so in reality they have only screwed themselves in more ways than one.

 

Good luck!

[Stigy]

Hi, alsobulliedbyswt, for some reason I got notice of your comment but follow the link and I can't see it. So just in case you get email update notice yourself here goes: Firstly, do NOT take the advice of some people on here whom may be SWT shareholders or employees! You can see who is who and determine for yourself.

 

Secondly, it was not resolved to my liking. Unfortunately the bandit of SWT and IRCAS are exactly that. They threaten you and pass the buck never doing anything but writing letters, avoiding phones like plague and then threatening you further. SWT say you owe the fine to IRCAS and therefore you must discuss with them and IRCAS state you must discuss the issue with SWT since they issued the fine. Basically they are telling you to FCUK off. They basically state the 'fine' is a courtesy and they will simply upon - non payment - quash the fine and instigate criminal trespass against you instead. It is extremely criminal of them and I hope someone more able than myself sues the backside off them one of these days.

 

I could have; with a little more digging and knowledge; avoided payment but in the end I did relent but only after about 7 months. However, I did not realise at time that unless they instigate proceedings against you WITHIN six months of the fine issued date then they cannot do so. I could have simply not paid and let them rant on so if you can stretch it out to 6 months without them issuing proceedings then you can tell them where to royally stuff it. Of course by then they may have decided to put a few more beers on the xmas party tab making you pay for them in process.

 

They are truly c***s of the worst sort and I no longer use them quite literally having changed job to avoid them, I get paid more and they dont get a penny so in reality they have only screwed themselves in more ways than one.

 

Good luck!

 

Whoa, hold on a second. The members here are here to help and don't get paid to help the likes of you. The advice given, although maybe not what you want to hear, is based on fact and how the relevant legislation works. Also, not sure what you mean by Criminal Trespass? Trespass on a Railway is a separate offence, under s.55 of the British Transport Commissions Act 1949. This refers to linseed trespass and has nothing to do with being somewhere you're not supposed to be without permission (such as jumping a fence on to a building site). If people don't want true, honest advice by people who don't know what they're talking about, join a forum such as http://www.tellmewhatiwanttohere.co.uk/talk. I'm sure they'll panda to you.

 

So, to sum up....You advise not to take our advice. And lose, like you did.

 

Typical post by someone who got caught out in my view.

[Old-CodJA]

Secondly, it was not resolved to my liking. Unfortunately the bandit of SWT and IRCAS are exactly that. They threaten you and pass the buck never doing anything but writing letters, avoiding phones like plague and then threatening you further. SWT say you owe the fine to IRCAS and therefore you must discuss with them and IRCAS state you must discuss the issue with SWT since they issued the fine. Basically they are telling you to FCUK off. They basically state the 'fine' is a courtesy and they will simply upon - non payment - quash the fine and instigate criminal trespass against you instead. It is extremely criminal of them and I hope someone more able than myself sues the backside off them one of these days.

.

 

No, the fact is that all of the following are offences where the allegation can be tried in a criminal Court;

 

i) a failure to pay the fare and buy a ticket where pre-purchase facilities had been available to the traveller is an offence contrary to National Railway Byelaw 18.1 (2005)

 

ii) a failure to show a ticket when asked where pre-purchase facilities had been available to the traveller is an offence contrary to National Railway Byelaw 18.2 (2005)

 

If you fail to successfully appeal and fail to pay then the rules specifically allow for the TOC to cancel the penalty fare option (which is a civil remedy) and to issue a Summons for the matter to be heard by a Magistrates Court and the maximum penalty upon conviction is a fine of up to £1000

 

iii) a failure to previously pay the fare due and to travel with the intention of paying that fare only if asked later or on train is an offence contrary to Section 5(3) of the Regulation of Railways Act [1889]

 

This is a more serious offence and one where the option of a Penalty Fare notice should NOT be given by rail staff. The maximum penalty if convicted for a first offence is also a fine of up to £1000, but this is a recordable offence and a second or subsequent conviction can result in a custodial sentence.

 

 

 

 

I could have; with a little more digging and knowledge; avoided payment but in the end I did relent but only after about 7 months. However, I did not realise at time that unless they instigate proceedings against you WITHIN six months of the fine issued date then they cannot do so. I could have simply not paid and let them rant on so if you can stretch it out to 6 months without them issuing proceedings then you can tell them where to royally stuff it. Of course by then they may have decided to put a few more beers on the xmas party tab making you pay for them in process.

.

 

A summons does have to be applied for within 6 months of any allegation being identified and reported, but that does not mean any criminal Court case will be heard within 6 months depending on how busy a Courts administration is.

 

The TOC also has the option of pursuing an unpaid debt via the civil Court process should they choose to do so, which means that (for that process) the six month limitation does not apply.

 

'Stone-walling', or 'burying your head in the sand' will not make the allegation go away as many have found out to their cost. The TOC may well apply for and get the Summons issued whilst correspondence is on-going and if an alleged offender fails to respond further, or refuses to accept any civil remedy offered, might seek to prove the case in absence of the alleged offender.

 

These are not the rules of 'the big bad rail companies', but are defined by Department for Transport and the Ministry of Justice.