Hi, alsobulliedbyswt, for some reason I got notice of your comment but follow the link and I can't see it. So just in case you get email update notice yourself here goes: Firstly, do NOT take the advice of some people on here whom may be SWT shareholders or employees! You can see who is who and determine for yourself. Secondly, it was not resolved to my liking. Unfortunately the bandit of SWT and IRCAS are exactly that. They threaten you and pass the buck never doing anything but writing letters, avoiding phones like plague and then threatening you further. SWT say you owe the fine to IRCAS and therefore you must discuss with them and IRCAS state you must discuss the issue with SWT since they issued the fine. Basically they are telling you to FCUK off. They basically state the 'fine' is a courtesy and they will simply upon - non payment - quash the fine and instigate criminal trespass against you instead. It is extremely criminal of them and I hope someone more able than myself sues the backside off them one of these days. I could have; with a little more digging and knowledge; avoided payment but in the end I did relent but only after about 7 months. However, I did not realise at time that unless they instigate proceedings against you WITHIN six months of the fine issued date then they cannot do so. I could have simply not paid and let them rant on so if you can stretch it out to 6 months without them issuing proceedings then you can tell them where to royally stuff it. Of course by then they may have decided to put a few more beers on the xmas party tab making you pay for them in process. They are truly c***s of the worst sort and I no longer use them quite literally having changed job to avoid them, I get paid more and they dont get a penny so in reality they have only screwed themselves in more ways than one. Good luck!

Thanks Old-Codja, understood. The process is probably deliberately confusing as to me it seems SWT always have an input, at any stage. The PF was issued on 08 February so over 7 months have transpired. Yes 3 'offences' but one was legitimately covered by a season ticket, though I guess the auto system won't differentiate so scrutiny by SWT required (doubtful). I am awaiting a reply from SWT from latest letter but don't honestly expect reply and then will probably be forced to pay but I will continue to seek recompense or recognition of these situations by all legal means necessary as I'm not first to be caught out and wont be the last. "He that would make his own liberty secure, must guard even his enemy from opposition; for if he violates this duty he establishes a precedent that will reach himself."

Old-Codja, thanks for the very good reply, it's appreciated amongst the unwarranted childish sarcasm of others. I understand what you've put but I am further confused since SWT have twice now put it in writing that they cannot help as it is out of their hands and they cannot discuss it since it is a legal matter with IRCAS. However, from everything you've and a couple of tothers have said, all roads do lead back to SWT to make the final decision as to whether to take to court so in effect they have always been in a position to make a decision and end the process. Lies or a serious bending of truth?

Honeybee, I have already apologised if my replies were terse and it's not that I don't like the advice, Apart from Old-Cod-Ja who'se reply was well constructed and welcome, I just consider rest of the forum replies have only been to 'save' myself from a court appearance. Absolutely nothing, zip, about how to go about maybe contesting the extra unfair charges, whom to best take my complaint to or letter templates etc which I would have expected from fellow consumers, hence my suspicions. It was never my intention to get drawn into a defensive argument but I couldn't sit back and be told I went out of my way to break the law and I have to pay up tough! when that was never the situation. I am not going to post back anymore - except to say thank you to posts since I want be able to post other questions in future if needed without having an unwarranted 'reputation'. Thank you to all for your time.

Bazza, opinions are different to [edited] instructions. I wasn't advised to pay up it was more an instruction to since I 'broke' as opposed to was "in breach" of the byelaws: a distinct difference and that's what got my gall up. We are here; least I thought so; to help the consumer but the [edited] responses were simply to bow down to the service providers which is why I'm highly suspicious of the negative posters! I've even asked same questions I asked to SWT and IRCAS which I notice they've too conveniently not answered since it would only help me not the provider. So therefore, yes clearly I don't the tunnel visioned advice as it falls 100% on service provider front, there is nothing useful to me to progress my case.

I think we have established they will go hell for leather to extort the money out of me and I will end up paying but can someone explain to me TO WHOM I owe the money to and have to pay it to? I have asked this of SWT twice and IRCAS, both of whom ignore the question completley! SWT simply said they couldn't communicate as its now a legal matter with IRCAS but are they not acting for SWT so I am bemused. SWT have a say yes/no and once I send payment to IRCAS where does it go, £20 to SWT, £60 IRCAS or fatcats or £80 to SWT? Essentially who do I fight on afterwards with! Who will have my money?

Honeybee, thanks for the reply and I appreciate it and the honesty. I trust you're not a regular commuter as I carry a bag and most of my tickets go in and stay in, how much junk do women have in their bags! bad housekeeping if you may and I am one of those commuters you refer to, I see price hikes all the time. I have a Gold Card Season Ticket now I have cleared my employment probabtion period which i was in at the time (a GCST before that in my previous job too, so just in between season tickets). And no, I value yours and everyones 'opinion' on here, it is an invaluable source and I am grateful. I apologise if my replies to firstclass etc seem terse but I thought this forum was for consumers and not the service providers!

The penalty may have been issued correctly but it was "unfairly" issued as per their own T&C's. I didn't do something wrong as you put it, I was simply unable to prove I was in the right (having had paid for a ticket, just guilty of not keeping it safe but thats not a crime) I DID in good faith reply within the timescales but for whatever reason unbeknown to them they chose to reject it even though they say it arrived late, that was out of my control as I posted within time. That's my main grievance and reason for delay and if you had read up I had offered to pay the minimum fare, if he had been concerned with anything civil he would have explained fully. You can pay the minimum and argue the difference as I have learnt now, this was not the case. He was merely concerned with his staff quotas, simple! My letters are formal and polite, and I have complained within my rights. That is not attacking them, that is a consumer complaining about the service & treatment received. I didn't break the law as you put it, I was simply unable to prove I was in the right (having had paid for a ticket, just guilty of not keeping it safe but thats not a crime, sadly unable to prove it though and your terminology offends) Never in a million years would he proceed with penalty without proof of intent! No but again, I appealed in time to a £20 penalty, was refused and on basis of an alleged 3 day late letter which was in control of the lovely PO, they slap 400% on. If you consider that fair and just and I should just accept it then I can but say you work or are affiliated in some way with a TOC! I would under normal circumstances totally agree with you but a catalogue of bad service and bullying does not make it right. I was in breach of the byelaw but as I know I had a ticket I did not break the law! IRCAS rejection was dubious and unfair and the 400% increase was unfair when dialogue was open. How you can say this is just and acceptable is beyond me! Please tell me honestly, what will my rolling over, paying up and dying do to stop them continuing this regime? Will they give me my money back if I say pretty please or will they say to themselves no one is objecting, oh look there is the next hapless commuter ha! I know I will end up paying the £80, I can't see a way around it but it does not make it right or correct it and attitudes like yours is typical of the TOC. You are accusatory, obstinate and tunnel visioned but hey it's not you money or values at stake.

Firstclassx That is why I am in written dialogue SWT in regards the validity of the penalty fare in first instance. All appeals in law are subject to review and if they are not replying to my requests for information to take to court then how can that process be fair? Would you have advised Abu Hamza to be deported then write his letters? An extreme point I know but the basis is I have not refused to pay, indeed I have always offered the minimum fare, I have simply questioned the issuance of the notice and wish to resolve civilly. Indeed, to make the whole disgusting SWT issue go away I would pay the original £20 and continue to contest it but as they have added totally dis-proportionate costs on whilst I was already in dialogue with them I am quite rightly aggrieved. Why not add £10,000 after 21 days, that'd have good results and I would not be able to argue case yes?. Would you suggest I pay £20 in good faith, it is afterall still a civil matter? I am disappointed that those like yourself simply want everyone to be completely submissive, roll over and die and let them carry on regardless.

No sorry, no idea what that refers to

Stigy, I have never not accepted that I failed to show a ticket and as such was in the wrong. But I have argued that extenuating evidence and circumstance should have been taken into consideration and have always offered to pay the minimum fare to which I was not offered the chance (but cannot prove). I firmly believe that if I had replied say after 10 days this case would never have got as far as it has. They are simply using an alleged 3 day late letter as a battering ram to extort money. There is absolutely nothing 'civil' about that. Indeed if you read down I had an outstanding ticket from January and it was only because of the issue with this one in Feb that I realised onus was on me to appeal first. On neither occasion did they advise on the T&C's and my eyesight is such that I cannot read the small print. I simply signed to say I'd received it, we all do this on documents every day without really reading it. SWT are modern highwaymen, plain and simple.

Hi Old-CodJa, thanks for your excellent detailed reply and I never mind positive criticism so sometimes liking an answer is not what is always important so I take on board everything. That said I’d like reply in context. - I’m not sure how producing previous days/weeks tickets and tipping entire contents out of bag and pockets for nigh on ten minutes can be viewed as unconvincing, especially considering too I state the connection is ALWAYS ticket checked. Fair and due consideration was certainly not even considered here Unfortunatley I cannot. I did have another which was issued in January and I had written to them. It was subsequently settled in April for the original fare with penalty fare excess reduced but I cannot understand why they would refuse one based on the first then settle the first! This may look bad but seriously, I must be unluckiest traveller as these were only 2 times I did not have a ticket and both times I get checked. I then got a third in July as I hadn’t realised until request that I’d left my Gold Card Season ticket at home. That was luckily completely quoshed but the 3 times I don’t have a ticket are the 3 days they hold checks. Some people just born unlucky! However, the agent could not know this at time so was not a contributing factor to his issuance and therefore I still maintain he did not show due care and consideration as stated they are required to in their Terms & Conditions. SWT have written to me stating that as it is a legal matter with IRCAS and they cannot get involved. I have asked them clarify to whom any money is owed since if IRCAS are acting on behalf of the TOC (SWT) then surely they have discretion at any time during the process to make a change of either reduction or cancellation of any penalty fare or even if it should go to court. They state they cannot enter into any further discussion over it. I am genuinely confused! Again, this is SWT yes? So why do they write that they cannot get involved and state it is a legal matter with IRCAS? My sign was merely to stop unwarranted house visits by said agency who I expect were merely trying to scare me into paying. But again you state SWT will be the ones who force the action. No, not at all. I was demanding in respect that I was unhappy with replies so far and requested information but I merely pointed out my gross unhappiness at the situation. I am always nothing but polite since aggression does get you no-where. Having read their website they state that if the appeal has been turned down then there is nothing they can do so no I have not progressed this. Lastly, if I continue to pursue my appeal, if they decide to simply issue a summons am I immediately liable for much increased cost or is it a last chance to settle it? I ask since whilst I write they can simply do this and I am proverbially shafted. I have tonight written another letter to SWT again asking them to clarify the agents authority and to clarify the legal aspect of whom is issuing action and the role SWT have. The system seems designed to be a closed shop!

Hi, I am currently in dispute with IRCAS regards a penalty notice from South West Trains and I am fighting for information to substantiate my claim. However, in the meantime they and an agent working on behalf of them are insisting I must pay regardless of any dispute or further information being presented. I believe this is wholly unfair and would like advice: I was ticket checked whilst changing trains at Ascot back in February and could not produce my days’ ticket that I had purchased (sadly with cash at office) but simply could not find. I produced the previous few days’ tickets and a plethora of previous tickets which I had on person to show I was a regular commuter and not a common fair dodger, i just couldn’t produce that days’. I was also travelling on a line Ascot – Guildford that is nigh on 100% ticket checked every journey so why as a regular commuter would I try dodge a fair! The agent however insisted on giving me a penalty fare. I offered to pay the original fair since I could understand I could not produce a ticket when asked but he refused it. He never explained the terms & conditions of 21 days to contact IRCAS, in fact I’m damn sure he said I’d receive a letter. However , I some time later read the terms and conditions and noticed it said within 21 days so I wrote off appealing. They wrote back and said it was received after 24 days and therefore appeal was denied. I contested and asked for a photocopy of envelope which they provided but it is inconclusive and I am very upset they are forcing this through on basis of a potentially late post office delivery. I have ALWAYS replied to their letters on time and I have asked for clarification of SWT's own terms & conditions to which the notice was issued: (I found these conditions to ask on another forum) Noteably However, they say contact SWT for that info which I have done and which they do not acknowledge in any replies, simply stating if IRCAS has denied appeal then nothing is to be done. My info request is to clarify the legality of that fine in first place, and I would need such info should I end up going to court. IRCAS meanwhile slapped a £60 admin fee on top (£80 total) which is totally disproportionate since I had already advised in writing I was in dispute and seeking clarification of the terms. So SWT refer me back to IRCAS whom refer me back to SWT for terms. Playing me off. I am not even entirely sure to whom I am supposed to owe money to! Another question I posed in writing to SWT which was completely ignored in written replies. Meanwhile I have no answers and likely to be summoned. How can this arise? Last month I then received a Final Notice letter from Capital resolve seeking payment, so now I am completely baffled whom is handling what and I have still not got answers from my written requests. I immediately wrote back advising I did not recognise the references they gave (it really was vague and bore no relation to previous references) if only to buy me time to get outstanding replies from SWT. They sent a postcard stating home visit in 7 days so I slapped a Permitted persons entry only notice on my gate to stop that as I consider it harassment. I have resorted to writing with full correspondence history to the MD of Customer Services, Tim Shoveller , requesting intervention and information but again I had a simple non informative reply that it is now a legal matter and omitting all information I’d requested. If I had never bought a ticket, not faithfully replied in time I would accept this charge but I am bitterly aggrieved at the sheer bullishness of this and if I was more social media aware I would be damning them from upon high. What can I do when I have already faithfully corresponded in writing to ALL communications from all parties and yet have received nothing back but demands and brick walls? This all boils down to my letter allegedly arriving at IRCAS offices a whole 3 days late! With all circumstances considered I do not believe they could realistically have upheld the fine any other way. SWT did not act in a ‘fair and reasonable’ manner in issuing the penalty notice since I had offered to pay the fare, produced aforementioned plethora of old tickets whilst bearing in mind the line is 100% ticket checked which I would have been well aware of. By time I continue to contest this or write to MP or regulator they will have issued a summons and forcibly bullied the money out of me. It will then be impossible to recoup. If anyone wants to review all correspondence then please do advise I can mail them or attach. Sorry for long post but better all in one than many questions/replies yes? And lastly, thanks in advance!