Help with a judgement and visit from HCEO **Partial Refund Obtained**

[ploddertom]

What grounds are you thinking of applying for a Stay on?

[puuk-matt]

I'm not sure what grounds to request a stay on - sorry maybe I misunderstood some of the previous advice given on this thread.

 

In an ideal world what I am hoping to acheive is as follows (which may not be possible now that HCEO is involved)

 

Be able to pay the debt at a rate of £200 per month without further enforcement or goods being removed etc.

[ploddertom]

To apply for a Stay then you must list some grounds on which your application is based. Business debts are perceived as being a little different in the fact they are usually listed as Forthwith Judgments meaning all has to be paid at once - no instalments allowed. However more Judges are being realistic in their understanding of small business debts and allowing Variation Orders. Having read through what you said so far you will probably be faced with paying for the next 3 years as the agreement may well be to pay £200 per month but this may have to be through the HCEO who will take his bit and could be only 60% or 70% is passed over each month and you still have the threat of removal if you default by being just 1 day late with payment.

 

Having a look at the levy they claim to have made I would contend they could be on dodgy ground:

 

'All Goods on premises including: This suggests he is claiming a Global Levy which is not allowed

Computer with monitor, if no make or model listed you could substitute an old 10" model + base unit & monitor on their own do not fetch much

Laptop, if no make or model listed you could substitute an old 10" model

Photocopiers, - you say these are leassed, you should notify the Leasin Co and get them to submit a 3rd party claim

Large Format Printers, - again no details

Plotter, - again no details

Chairs & Desks' - probably of little value

 

I would go against some of the other comments made as to the value of the items seized and suggest the Enforcement Officer has not been diligent in carrying out his levy. As for applying for a Stay the grounds you could use may be:

a - you cannot afford the fees demanded

b - the HCEO has listed & is threatening to remove goods which could put the future of the business in jeopardy thus making it difficult to pay the debt off

c - the HCEO has tried to make a global levy and did not carry out his levy in a diligent manner

d - pending detremination of a Variation Order application

 

An application for a Stay should be taken in person to either the High Court or a County Court that acts as a District Registry of the High Court.

[puuk-matt]

ploddertom - many thanks for such a helpful reply and putting my mind at rest a little.

 

Just to confirm that a course of action that would be possible is as follows:

 

Form N244 - Stay of Execution will be filled in on Monday and taken to a office of the high court asking for a 'Stay of Execution' on the following grounds...

 

That if the HCEO is allowed to remove the goods listed on the levy, then it will put the business in jeopardy, and payment to all other creditors of the business in jeopardy also, whilst a pre-exisiting variation order is being heard.

 

Couple of questions please....

1 - How long will it take to get the stay of execution heard, and presumably if sucessful the order just needs forwarding to the HCEO.

2 - How long would a stay of execution normally be in force for, as it may be that if it is in place for a sensible enough amount of time, that with some scrimping and saving I could raise the funds to pay off the debt.

3 - Is there anything I can do to appeal the HCEO fees which do seem somewhat steep?

 

Matt

[brassnecked]

Just a note on computers, surely if customer data and sensitive information is on the computers the hard drives should be removed before the HCEO can take the computers as there would be DPA issues on a subsequent sale.

[ploddertom]

ploddertom - many thanks for such a helpful reply and putting my mind at rest a little.

 

Just to confirm that a course of action that would be possible is as follows:

 

Form N244 - Stay of Execution will be filled in on Monday and taken to a office of the high court asking for a 'Stay of Execution' on the following grounds...

 

That if the HCEO is allowed to remove the goods listed on the levy, then it will put the business in jeopardy, and payment to all other creditors of the business in jeopardy also, whilst a pre-exisiting variation order is being heard.

 

Couple of questions please....

1 - How long will it take to get the stay of execution heard, and presumably if sucessful the order just needs forwarding to the HCEO. If taken in person you may explain the urgency of the application and in some cases it can be heard & granted immediately - may depend on where you live as some Courts are better than others.

2 - How long would a stay of execution normally be in force for, as it may be that if it is in place for a sensible enough amount of time, that with some scrimping and saving I could raise the funds to pay off the debt. It may be granted as an interim pending a further hearing & if upheld will usually stay in place for the life of the debt - however if any terms are broken then the HCEO will call again without any recourse.

3 - Is there anything I can do to appeal the HCEO fees which do seem somewhat steep? Yes, but don't concern yourself yet, getting a Stay in place is more urgent.

 

Matt

 

PT

[puuk-matt]

PT,

 

Again many many thanks indeed - will be on my way to Canterbury Court on Monday morning with my form N244 in hand to ask them to process it urgently, and if possible while I wait.

Will report back on Monday, hopefully with good news that a Stay has been put in place and by then will probably have a million and one more questions as to how to proceed next.

 

Thanks again ploddertom!

[danmcr]

In regards to the fees the HCEO has charged, I think they are reasonable compared to what some HCEO's charge.

[puuk-matt]

I just feel the fees are a bit strong, considering that a) the HCEO arrived only 5 days after judgement being granted, which whilst I appreciate I wouldn't have been in a position to pay in full anyway, does substantially increase the debt within a very short timeframe and b) the HCEO has attended once and levyed goods. I wouldn't mind charging over £600 to visit a client once, spend 10 minutes in attendance and off to the next one!

[ploddertom]

In regards to the fees the HCEO has charged, I think they are reasonable compared to what some HCEO's charge.

 

I'll agree with that although I do believe they could still be challenged.

[danmcr]

I'll agree with that although I do believe they could still be challenged.

 

Fees can always be challenged however I feel the OP could be wasting his/her time in doing so.

 

Personally I would contact the HCEO and come to some sort of an arrangement, one that the OP can afford and stick to, it will save time and money messing with Court, Complaints etc etc. It's worth remembering that a Stay/Set aside is not always granted and can be overturned on application.

 

Best of luck to the OP.

[puuk-matt]

Hi Danmcr-

 

Thanks for your advice.... I have considered contacting the HCEO and trying to sort out an arrangement directly, but the HCEO who came yesterday didn't seem to be overly keen on doing so and because it's my business and affects the livelihoods of several people I am keen to have a court stamped document that says the HCEO can't remove goods of the premises (as long as I keep my end of the deal of course!).

Secondly and whilst I am not tarnishing all with the same brush, and also appreciate that these forums can be one sided, there seems to be a feeling that some HCEO officers and companies can at times be somewhat disingenuous in their actions - again all the more reason I feel to have this stamped and dealt with properly.

Matt

[puuk-matt]

Right then.. off to the Court in about an hour or two with my N244 asking for a Stay of Execution while my N245 is heard.

 

If anybody is able to give any advice, can I just ask if my answers to the questions of the form will be ok? It's not the easiest thing in the world to fill in.

 

In answer to question 3 - What order are you asking the court to make and why? I have responded:

 

I am applying that the court set a Stay Of Execution or Interim order preventing further enforcement in this case on the following grounds:

 

1 - Pending determination of a N245 Variation Order (already applied for)

2 - The goods that the HCEO has listed and is threatening to remove, are essential to the running of the business and removal will place the future of the business in jeopardy along with that of the position of the other creditors.

3 - The fees added by the HCEO are excessive in the short amount of time (5 days) from judgement being granted to enforcement by the HCEO, not allowing time for process of N245 order.

 

and in answer to question 10 - What information will you be relying on? I have responded with:

Judgement was granted against my company in the Northampton County Court, claim number ***********, in the amount of £1365.75 on the 25th July 2013.

 

Following receipt of the order by post on the 29th July 2013, I filled in form N245 asking for a variation in the order, offering the creditor £200 per month (Minimum) until the balance was cleared, as this would be a sensible amount that our company could afford, without jeopardising the position of other creditors and the position of employees of the business. This was sent by recorded delivery to Northampton Court using Royal Mail (Tracking Number **************) on the 31st July 2013.

 

On 2nd August 2013, only 5 days following Judgement, and 3 days following notification of Judgement, our premises were visited by a High Court Enforcement Officer from ************** under writ number ***** adding additional fees of £635.27 to the Judgment amount.

 

I am therefore asking the court, to agree to a Stay of Execution for the term of 1 month, preventing further enforcement action whilst my N245 application is heard.

 

 

If anyone has any suggestions or if there are any clangers I would really appreciate your input.

 

Many thanks indeed.

 

Matt

Edited August 5, 2013 by puuk-matt
Edited to remove some identyifing infotmation

[HCEOs]

The goods that the HCEO has listed and is threatening to remove, are essential to the running of the business and removal will place the future of the business in jeopardy along with that of the position of the other creditors.

 

As mentioned earlier a Limited Company is not afforded protection in execution against tools of the trade.

[puuk-matt]

HCEOs - thanks for your reply and whilst a company may not be protected by 'tools of the trade' legislation, what I am trying to establish is that I have made a sensible offer to the court on my form N245 of £200.00 per month to clear this debt rather than the alternative of the seizure being enforced which would effectively close the company, meaning all other creditors lose out along with employees of the business.

With this in mind, is it not sensible to list it as a reason to hold off the enforcement?

[HCEOs]

I suppose you could include it for the reasons you state but just be advised that this point is not lawful grounds for the request you are making.

[BazzaS]

Thing is, it isn't the courts role to agree a payment plan to protect the interests of other creditors.

 

The other creditors are equally able to take court action if you are in default of what they are owed.

 

Did you make the offer to pay in instalments prior to the creditor being granted the CCJ?

[puuk-matt]

Hi BazzaS,

 

Thanks for your response and I appreciate your comments that it isn't up to the courts to force a payment plan to protect the other creditors (although am I incorrect in thinking that effectively that is what they do by ordering a Variation Order?)

 

and no, unfortunately didn't make any arrangements prior to the CCJ being issued. I fully appreciate how foolish I am for allowing myself to end up in this position, and will definitely make sure it doesn't occur again.

[BazzaS]

Hi BazzaS,

 

Thanks for your response and I appreciate your comments that it isn't up to the courts to force a payment plan to protect the other creditors (although am I incorrect in thinking that effectively that is what they do by ordering a Variation Order?)

 

and no, unfortunately didn't make any arrangements prior to the CCJ being issued. I fully appreciate how foolish I am for allowing myself to end up in this position, and will definitely make sure it doesn't occur again.

 

It is what they effectively do IF they order a Variation.

However (as other posters have noted), those ON THEIR OWN aren't definitive grounds for a ltd co. to have the most effective chance of obtaining a variation.

[puuk-matt]

Right... unfortunately that didn't go to plan.

Got to the courthouse at 2.30pm to find the enquiry desk of the County Court closes at 2pm. A note at the desk said to phone a help desk if the enquiry was urgent, which I have done.

I explained that I was trying to apply on a N244 for a stay of execution while I wait for my N245 to be heard but regrettably the clerk took the line that I could put the form in and wait for a hearing to be assigned but there was no guarantee when that would be.

I explained that also I had effectively bought myself a week with the HCEO and therefore didn't have that long and was under the impression that sometimes it is possible to get a fast track or interim order preventing further action but was told it doesn't really work like that.

So where do I go from here? I know others have managed to get an immediate rubber stamp even if only short term. Should I try a different court for advice and hope for a more friendly clerk, or is this really game over. Can the original claimant call of the HCEO if I can come to an arrangement with them.

Please help, as I now am at my wits end.

[HCEOs]

The HCEO has levied correctly at your premises. You should be calling the HCEO to make an arrangement to pay. That is the whole purpose of the HCEOs involvement.

[Sir Vere Brayne d'Emmidge]

I've read through this thread twice and still do not know if Matt is a sole trader or if the business is a Partnership or a Limited Company.

 

However, although he might be helped by the Court as a sole trader and maybe as a partner, I doubt it very much that a Ltd.Co. is going to get any simpathy.

 

Deal with the HCEO, he's is the one calling the shots now, not the original debtor (they have employed him to get the money out of you).

[puuk-matt]

Sorry I hadn't made it clearer earlier in the thread but it is indeed a limited company so I guess I'm on a loser in that respect then.

I suppose my next set of questions in that case is as follows as I will approach the HCEO tomorrow and I know some of the posters on here are HCEO themselves...

 

Again I stress I do not wish to avoid paying this debt and fully appreciate the HCEO is doing their job in looking after the creditor and enforcing a court order, but...

 

Is there a likely amount the HCEO will agree to in terms of a payment plan?

Is it preferred if it is paid back within a certain timeframe?

Would an offer of £100 per week be likely accepted on a debt of £2100

If my N245 is subsequently granted regardless of whether a deal is struck with the HCEO, would this over ride the HCEO order (assuming of course the terms are stuck to)?

 

Thanks again for all your invaluable help.

[puuk-matt]

Hi all,

 

So here's the update for you all and my next round of questions.

I managed to put the squeeze on a few customers and get together £1500 of the £2100 writ amount, and have just phoned the HCEO and paid the £1500 with a promise to pay the outstanding on Monday, which he has agreed to.

 

My main question now is about the fees....

 

Is over £600 fees on a £1100 debt really legal - seems like daylight robbery, considering he's turned up once, filled in a form and 10 minutes later buggered off again?

And I can't find him on the register list of bailiffs and HCEO's - but maybe I'm not looking in the right place.

How do I find out what the fees consist of as on the writ it simply states HCEO fees £600.00 without saying what they are for?

 

Many thanks for your help again.

[HCEOs]

Those fees are pretty average these days I'm afraid. Other HCEOs charge more, some marginally less.

 

They can be challenged in court but the costs in doing so and the risk of you being liable for their legal costs put a lot of people off. The regulation to do this under is 13(4) of the High Court Enforcement Officers Regulations 2004. The application itself is £325 if done correctly.

 

One of the main points that's argued is that no levy was made however in your case it clearly was. You may be able to argue the miscellaneous fees charged under Fee 12 but these will only form a small part of the total fees and may not be worth arguing considering the above.

 

Others will be able to give you the 'other side of the fence' view....