Claim and Counter Claim builder gave an estimate to build an extension

[dillon21]

Hi could someone help my husband a builder gave an estimate to build an extension firstly he told the customer he would do it on day work and the customer would have every invoice so he could see how much everything cost so he was only actually paying for what he got he thought this was the fairest way

he wasn't intrested in making a big profit just happy for the work really.it has gone over budget by £4000so hes not happy even thou when he paid up at the end of April he was told this and my husband asked him if he wanted to carry on with the work to which he said yes and now owes over £4000 for May labour and materials but wont pay nothing was in writing

[tezza1234]

Have you got written proof (signed) that the customer agreed to the fact it would be £4000 over budget

[dillon21]

No here lies the problem nothing is in writing for either party hes taking an estimate as an actual price (he has the estimate in writingnot a quote) hes had every invoice for every product bought for the job so he knows that's what is owed to builders merchants its going to be his word against my husband and from his email this evening hes already stating thing that were not agreed like the job would be completed in 6 weeks and he told my husband he had a budget of £20,000 which is a lie he says hes taken legal advise and this is what hes been told unless there were factors beyond your control we should stick the original estimate

have accounted for approx. £2,500.00 worth of additional expenses which would bring the total to 19,500.00 although my solicitor advises that you should have built in the extra work demanded by building regs (we did not have the building regs at time of estimate) I had a plan of the extension but no building regs at time

As regards employing a quantity surveyor, my solicitor considers as I do that you should be able to calculate the quantity of materials needed yourself and this should not be necessary

Not a lot of emphasis was put on the estimate as it was agreed it would be done on a day work basis and he would see every invoic

[tezza1234]

I dont know the answer, maybe SCC and let them decide, if its obvious its a written estimate not a quote and he has all the invoices to back up the price. Im no legal expert but SCC maybe the only way to have a chance of getting money back. From now on, write all communications with customer down, send letters, dont phone, unless you can record it. And while things are still fresh in the mind, do a diary and document everything that happened and when, dates, times everything. It may come in useful at a later date.

[mr plasterer]

nothing in writing unfortunatly not a great you/he can really do.

 

its more of a learning curve and make sure he gives all customer a contract to sign that way you are covered if you have to go to a small claims court.

 

im a self employed plasterer and have had this once from a guy who is well know for not paying but at the time i was just starting out so took it anyway. big mistake i lost £1600.so now i have t&c's on the back of all my quotes that the customer reads and signs before work is carried out.

 

it makes me laugh at the amout of rouge trader programs there are on tv yet none about rouge customers which there are plenty

[dillon21]

Thank you for your replays surely if the guy has excepted the invoices from my husband for materials £1534 for may he has to be responsible for paying them if he did that it would be a start the loss of £3000 labour would put us in dire straights but at least the supplier would be paid I can't believe people can get away with having an extension then not have to pay

[dillon21]

Hi has anyone on here been to a small claims court got some advice from a solicitor today and they seemed to think even thou nothing's in writing we had a verbal agreement and the word quote was never used only estimate and he's been transferring money each mounth until the last bill any advice greatly appreciated

[maddiemay]

Been here myself with my builder husband, and I agree with Mr Plasterer, for every rogue trader there's a rogue customer too! We too now only issue quotes, always re quote for additional work or changes, and have a long list of t & c which the customer must sign and date, once bitten and all that.

 

They'll have to pay up in the end but it may take a while and lots of letters, so paying the merchants bill may cause a problem, I know only too well how builders rely on their merchants accounts to continue working, a blip like this messes everything up!

 

How did the £4.000 over budget come about, was it customer changes, additions or unforeseen circumstances?

 

Customer should have had a contingency (sorry if its not spelt right) with only an estimate to go on, but that's his own fault not yours, although a recommendation to him from you to do this, would have looked a bit better if it went to court.

Is the job completed?

I'll help if I can, but only got my own experiences to go on, but am very interested in these kind of legal issues. We won our money back all bar a few hundred pounds, customer settled way before the court stage, and had to pay a solicitor just to fight little old me!

 

Good luck, and change your heading to quote! Quote is binding, estimate is not, however it can work against you as much as for you, but cover that in your terms and conditions.

 

Maddie

[dillon21]

Hi Maddie

 

we are going to get a solicitors letter out to him on Wednesday I will give you all the info.

in the beginning he only had plans with no building Regs they came just before the build started he told the customer they would have a rough estimate not a quote but he would be doing it on a day rate basis and the customer would have all invoices from the building suppliers so he could see all that was being used as it was on a day rate everything was done on a verbal agreement he trusted them he thought they were genuine which I think maybe they were at the time but after he paid the second instalment he explained that his estimate was going to be a way off and did he want time to get money togheather he said no it would all be worth it in the end my husband held his hands up and told him the estimate was out from the original but explained this was the true price he was only paying for the hours he was on site and had all suppliers invoices so he could see he wasn't ripping him off once again when the following month he paid he told him a rough price where the end price would be still he said go ahead so he worked through that month but when he gave him the bill he said he couldn't believe it was that much didn't say he wasn't go to pay just said he would be in touch. couple weeks passed didn't hear a thing so asked him to tell us his proposal to pay got a email saying although im pleased with the quality of work I am disappointed with the pace and price after you said you could do it for £xx,xxx. nothing was ever said to him about the pace and within 6 weeks nothing was ever mentioned about the time scale. it thaen says im stuggling to accept your latest bill I told you at the outset I had a max budget of £xx,xxx (this was also never mentioned) most expect no more than a 10% variation Your time sheet was imformative but cant believe there one days you worked fot 10.5 hrs without a break and cant see £xx,xxx worth of labour was carried out he then says hes taken legal advise and this is what was advised unless there were factors beyond your control we should stick to the original estimate. you have accounted for £2,500 worth of additional expenses which would bring the total to £xx,xxx although my solicitor advises that you should have built in the extra work demanded by building regs into your estimate. Hes not getting he didn't have them when estimate was done and it was a day work arrangement he then goes on to say I have been advised that we have 2 options They are You complete the job for the agreed price. I employ someone else to complete the job and sue you for their costs (would a solicitor really say this )

Then he puts a third option which im sure hes hoping we take we both cut our losses and have no further communication

I really hope he has to prove this is what a solicitor said

what really gets me is that if it wasn't for the fact that they were waiting for a stained glass window he would have let the guys carry on with no intention of paying

Also he told my husband he wanted to help with the labour and didn't do a thing so my husband had to have another pair of hands all the time which wasnt estimated for

Hes already telling fibs by time scales

Please excuse grammer im doing this without glasses

[maddiemay]

Hi Dilon

 

So in effect, he employed you to do a job, then ran out of money and cant pay you to finish it, so he's looking for a way to complete it at no further cost to himself.

I don't think you have any cause for concern at all, customer is completely out of order. Estimate was issued prior to building regs being passed, hence why an estimate, not a quote was provided, and a day rate agreed instead.

 

Take back control from this customer, its not up to him to dictate what happens next, cheeky git.

Get that solicitors letter out to him stating how you want the issue resolved, i.e. your husband wants to complete the job which will cost x amount of pounds (agreed and signed by him this time) or pay what you owe me and then bugger off and get someone else to finish it.

 

Find out if you can claim the court costs from him, not sure what the position is with small claims.

 

He's just trying his luck in my opinion, don't quite know on what basis he thinks he can sue you to be honest, he's not out of pocket, you are!

 

Doubtful he has actually sought legal advise, seems to be clutching at straws, and making excuses as to why he shouldn't pay.

 

Keep us updated if you can.

 

Maddie

[dillon21]

Yep will do appointment with solicitor Wednesday morning of a cost of £250 + vat great what really gets me is there was no profit made it was straight down the line giving him the invoices no profit made on materials I just worry because estimate was so far a drift but hopefully because all paper works there for small claims court to see that is the true cost that will help would be interested to know what T&c you have on your quotes will update Wednesday

[dillon21]

Hi Maddie

Just to let you know it's DDay tomorrow we have heard nothing but the solicitor as been away, but the 18th is the date she gave him to reply

[dillon21]

Had an email from solicitor saying customer sent lengthy letter will forward onto us but Is not going to pay another penny. So small claims court it is any advice welcome because we can't afford any legal advice now just about scraped money together for her to send initial letter

Thanks

[renegadeimp]

You dont really need a solicitor for scc.

[dillon21]

It just all seems a bit confusing lol

[dillon21]

HI this is still going on received a letter today counter claiming please could you now tell me what happens it reads that this caseis suitable for small claims track and if you think its not fill in Form N180 and explain why you must fill form by 17th Feb . please could you help not sure what to do is it now up to the other guy to persue the case if we drop it its making me ill please someone tell me our options

MANY THANKS

[caro]

What does the counterclaim say? Can you post up the exact wording.

[BankFodder]

You will have to supply a defence to the counterclaim.

Are you doing this yourself or with legal help?

I think that we need to see your claim and his defence and counterclaim before you can be given any proper help on this.

[BankFodder]

I see that you have emailed us a photo of a court document.

I'm afraid that it is scarcely legible. You will have to use a scanner and post them up as PDFs please.

[dillon21]

I can't scan at the moment could I email to you if you pm me you email

[dillon21]

I can't scan at the moment could I email to you if you pm me you email

[maddiemay]

I'm not any good with filling in court forms, always get help from the people on CAG for those, but I am following and if I can add anything I think might help, I will, other than that I can just offer my moral support.

 

You have the invoices for the materials and monthly invoices for labour, so as long as you can show how this extra cost occurred, it's pretty straightforward, unless your husband was charging a huge day rate, which is unlikely as the customer had happily paid them up until May.

We've been where you are, it's a massive headache but you will get through it.

 

We don't have any merchant accounts anymore, always pay as we go now, and haggle the prices down too! No more just collecting the materials and waiting 3 days to find out how much they've charged you, then take the time out to argue the correct discount hasn't been applied etc etc, oh what a nightmare having building accounts is!

 

Good luck, I'm sure you'll be fine

 

Maddie

[dillon21]

Please can you tell me if we now drop the case will it still go ahead because of the counter claim we haven't decided that's what we are going to do just need to know options

Thank you

[f16]

dillon21 I'm a builder and I read this thread with intrest. It's like reading my life storey.. i've been there, I know what it's like. They are basicly taking food off your table.

WE are all hear to help. Any input I can give I will.

[f16]

The counter claim will be dropped because this clown is trying it on.