1st [nationwide], 2nd Picture/Webb mortgage, negative equity, what next?

[sgianthebard]

Picture Finance was the original company that I took a loan out with.

 

I think they went bust, but re-started business as Picture.

 

However, they did then sell my loan to Webb.

 

if estoppel is a legitimate legal procedure, that may be the way to go. I'll look into that one.

 

I also read something about crony-ism, while not being unlawful, is not looked upon with a favourable eye in the courts.

 

I think I'll have to do some research on that too.

 

If a loan is being sold around between DCA, then that could be crony-ism.

 

Might be something the monopolies commission might want to be interested in too.

 

I don't know enough about this yet to even know if it's a viable defence,

but it sounds like fairness on handling ones loan has to be seen to be done.

[dx100uk]

hows the SAR looking

 

dx

[The Phantom]

Picture Finance was the original company that I took a loan out with.

 

I think they went bust, but re-started business as Picture.

 

However, they did then sell my loan to Webb.

 

if estoppel is a legitimate legal procedure, that may be the way to go. I'll look into that one.

 

I also read something about crony-ism, while not being unlawful, is not looked upon with a favourable eye in the courts.

 

I think I'll have to do some research on that too.

 

If a loan is being sold around between DCA, then that could be crony-ism.

 

Might be something the monopolies commission might want to be interested in too.

 

I don't know enough about this yet to even know if it's a viable defence,

but it sounds like fairness on handling ones loan has to be seen to be done.

 

I am also still trying to find out about estoppel, as (just as you) I have no agreement with Idem Servicing, and I told them I wouldn't accept any charges, fees, or terms / conditions imposed by them which are different from the ones I had with Picture.

I also queried the interest rate of 10% when the Libor is down to 1% and although I signed up to a variable rate with Picture it never went down, but only went up. So I must have signed up to a 'upwards only' variable rate without knowing although of course it doesn't say that in the loan agreement. Idem tried to say that the interest rate is variable and not linked to Libor or anything else. My Picture agreement however states the rate is linked to changes in interest rates generally. I asked them to explain but got no reply....

The Ombudsman has written to Idem and informed them of my complaint, so this could drag on for a while I think

[The Phantom]

hows the SAR looking

 

dx

 

Hi dx

 

Idem sent me a copy of the original loan agreement and a statement of the account showing they haven't added any charges. Webb didn't add charges either by the looks of it. And the arrears only build up over a period of just under a year, before that the account was always up to date anyway. However, I don't know what they are adding now whilst sending me letters , they are apparently cost £10.- a pop , so will keep an eye on this when I get the next account statement

[sgianthebard]

Be interesting to see what the ombudsman makes of the interest rate varying up only. Same happened to me. I negotiated a 6.9%apr with Picture Finance, and as the interest rates in the rest of the known world decreased (down to 0.5% at one point), my rate only increased...that can't be right. If it is right and proper, that means that they could at any time say we are increasing your variable rate to 1 million per cent. Therefore, it follows, that constantly increasing the APR while the libor is decreasing, is dodgy.Anyway, I have neot paid a penny to IDEM since they took over the loan 6 months ago. My arrears are building up, but I don't care - I didn't take out a loan with IDEM and even though it's technically lawful for my loan to be sold on, I feel likeit's just being thrown about from old pal to old pal so they can all have a laugh at me and keep me in poverty. Enough is enough.

[The Phantom]

Libor is running at 1% at the moment, but IDEM was alleging the rate in the agreement is not linked to anything, which according to my copy is not correct, it states the rate is linked to changes in interest rates generally. So although it is (probably intentionally) phrased very vaguely, it still states the rate is linked to interest rates generally and that would lead anybody to believe they mean the BOE or Libor rate.

What does it say in your Picture agreement ?

[The Phantom]

I had a reply from the FOS which made me laugh, as well

They say they cannot get involved at this stage, because IDEM keeps saying in their letters it is their final response but if I am dissatisfied I should take the matter to the Financial Lettings and Leasing Authority. Because they don't say I can take it to the Ombudsman the FOS won't get involved at this stage.

After speaking to the FOS they say although IDEM is regulated and will come under the FOS, as long as they keep putting this totally incorrect statement in their letters FOS won't get involved. The FOS admits that the Financial Lettings and Leasing Authority has nothing whatsoever to do with my complaint, but because IDEM keeps putting that into their letters they won't start an investigation !! How ridiculous is that ?!

[The Phantom]

OK, I just got an e-mail from the Ombudsman Services, could someone from the site team have a look at its contents and give me their thoughts please ?

 

Dear Ms Phantom,

 

I am contacting you to let you know that I have been asked to consider your complaint against Idem Capital Securities Limited.

I apologise if no one contacted you earlier –

your complaint was allocated to me on Wednesday and I have started to look at it today.

 

I am an adjudicator – not an ombudsman.

In simple terms, I obtain the information and evidence I feel we need to reach a conclusion on your complaint.

I will then give you and/or Idem my opinion on what I consider the outcome of your complaint is likely to be.

At this point if you and Idem accept my opinion, the complaint can be settled.

However, if either you or Idem do not agree with my opinion,

you both have the right to ask for an ombudsman to decide the outcome of your complaint.

The ombudsman’s decision is final – there is no right of appeal – and will represent the end of our involvement in your complaint.

 

So, in effect, my job is to let you and/or Idem know what the ombudsman’s decision is likely to be a

nd if you do not agree, give you the chance to submit further evidence or testimony before the ombudsman’s final decision is made.

 

What I can tell you at the moment is that your complaint concerns an unregulated loan,

originally with Picture Loans (if you look at a copy of the original loan agreement, it shows the loan is unregulated).

 

As the loan is unregulated, Idem have contacted us to say that it considers that we cannot consider your complaint

(which is why it did not give you rights of referral to us in its response to your complaint).

 

Therefore, before I can give you or Idem my opinion on the merits of your complaint,

I will have to consider the question of whether or not we can actually consider your complaint

– i.e whether or not the complaint falls within our jurisdiction.

 

Once again, both you or Idem can ask for an ombudsman to decide whether or not your complaint (or part of it) falls within our jurisdiction.

 

I note that you have contacted us previously and were told that Idem is a company covered by the jurisdiction of the Financial Ombudsman Service.

This is correct.

However, we have differing levels of jurisdiction

– before 1 April 2014, Idem was subject only to our consumer credit jurisdiction.

On 1 April 2014, firms like Idem who were previously regulated under consumer credit regulation,

became regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority and

as a result, from 1 April 2014, Idem has been subject to our compulsory jurisdiction – which is more comprehensive.

 

If Idem was still subject to our consumer credit jurisdiction, then in my opinion,

we could not consider your complaint as it concerns a loan that was not regulated under consumer credit legislation.

 

However, now Idem is subject to our compulsory jurisdiction,

I feel that we should be able to consider your complaint, or at least part of it.

 

I consider we should be able to consider your complaint as it concerns anything Idem has done since 1 April 2014

– which should cover its administration of the loan and service to you since it took over the loan at the end of May.

 

I’m afraid that I do not feel we will be able to consider any issues relating to the original, unregulated loan agreement,

i.e. the interest rate or the right to transfer the loan to another ‘person’ without notice.

 

I apologise if this all sounds complicated and an excuse not to consider some or all of your complaint.

However, I am afraid that we are subject to rules regarding what we can and cannot consider

and ultimately, it may be that we can only consider part of your complaint or not at all.

 

As you can see, the changes relating to Idem are quite recent.

I will therefore be discussing your particular case next week with one of my colleagues

who is more expert in matters of jurisdiction.

 

By this time next week, I hope to be able to confirm whether or not we can consider your complaint

and if so, which part or parts of your complaint we can consider.

 

As Idem has argued that we cannot consider any aspect of your complaint, if we disagree with that argument,

I will have to go back to Idem to let them know

– at which point Idem may appeal and ask for an ombudsman’s decision on our jurisdiction in your case.

If this is the case, I will let you know,

 

To summarise, by this time next week, I should be able to let you have my opinion on whether or not we can consider your complaint

and if so, which parts.

 

However, you and/or Idem have the right to ask for an ombudsman’s decision on this issue so regardless of my opinion,

this may not mean that I can start work on your complaint.

 

I will update you by this time next week. In the meantime, if you wish to contact me, I can always be contacted by email. If you wish to telephone, please call on xxxxxxxxxxxxx.

 

Regards

 

xxxxxxxxxx

 

I would be interested on whether the Ombudsman can really not investigate unregulated loans, if that is the case these sharks can do whatever they want ?

Has anybody any thoughts on the above ?

[The Phantom]

I wonder whether this will apply to my Picture / Webb / Idem loan ?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?411012-FAO-anyone-with-a-Firstplus-secured-loan.&highlight=interest+rate+term+unfair

 

The thread talks about a FirstPlus loan ,but I have exactly the same clause in my agreement ?

[The Phantom]

Another e-mail from the Ombudsman:

 

 

Dear Ms Phantom,

 

Thank you for your email. You will appreciate that until the question of what we can consider, if anything, in relation to your complaint, has been clarified – and this might take an ombudsman’s decision – I cannot give you any definite answers on your complaint.

 

We are aware of the court judgement relating to First Plus. However, if you look further (and there is plenty about this on the internet) you will see that this one case did not create a legal precedent that will apply to any other loans with First Plus, or a loan with another lender.

 

I am aware that consumer groups are in contact with the OFT and the FCA regarding variable interest rate loans. However, as far as I am aware, no decision has been made by either of these organisations to say that these variable interest rate clauses are unfair.

 

I would reiterate that, in my opinion, I consider it unlikely that we will be able to consider any part of your complaint relating to the unregulated loan agreement. Although this loan agreement has been transferred from Picture to Webb and now to Idem, the agreement itself remains unchanged.

 

If you wish to make a complaint against Webb then you will need to complain to Webb in the first instance. If Webb is no longer trading then you may wish to consider referring the complaint to the Financial Services Compensation Scheme (details can be found on the internet) which deals with complaints about financial businesses that are no longer in business. If Webb is no longer trading, we may not be able to consider a complaint against Webb (I can find out more for you on this once you have decided whether or not you will complain about Webb and if so, what that complaint concerns).

 

I will contact you again shortly with more detail regarding what we can and cannot consider. At this point, if you (or Idem) are not satisfied with my opinion, you can ask for an ombudsman’s decision.

 

Regards

 

 

xxxxxxxxxxx

[The Phantom]

Not sure if it is worth taking IDEM to small claims court on that clause just as has happened with FirstPlus, but there is not that much information on the details on that case.

My Picture agreement has got exactly the same clause in it.

[The Phantom]

Update from FOS:

 

Dear Ms Phantom,

 

I have now received guidance confirming that we can consider your complaint against Idem Capital Securities Limited, relating to events that have happened since 1 April 2014 (or in your case from the end of May 2014, when Idem took over the administration of your loan).

 

I will be making this clear to Idem. To date, Idem has indicated that it takes the view that we cannot consider your complaint at all. Idem does have the right to ask for an ombudsman to decide whether or not we can consider your complaint. I have asked Idem to confirm whether it now accepts that we can consider your complaint (on the basis set out above) or if not, I will get an ombudsman’s decision on this issue. I have asked Idem to respond to me on this within 14 days.

 

To summarise, at the moment we are still looking at the question of whether or not we can consider your complaint – not whether your complaint will win or lose. Even if it is decided that we can consider your complaint, this does not mean that your complaint will be upheld – I cannot comment on the merits of your complaint until it either Idem voluntarily accepts that we can consider your complaint or we issue an ombudsman’s decision confirming we can consider your complaint (with which Idem will have to comply).

 

Regards

[The Phantom]

Further updates from the FOS:

 

Dear Ms Phantom,

 

As I have had no response from Idem, I have sent a reminder today. I have told Idem that if I do not hear from them by 11 December, I will assume that they remain of the view that we cannot consider your complaint. I will then refer your complaint to an ombudsman who will make the final decision on whether or not we can consider your complaint (or part of it).

 

I will therefore contact you again shortly after 11 December – earlier if I hear from Idem before this.

[The Phantom]

and another one:

 

Dear Ms Phantom,

 

I have attached a copy of the response I have received from Idem. As you can see, Idem maintains that we cannot consider your complaint. Therefore, I will have to refer your complaint to an ombudsman to issue a decision on whether or not we can consider your complaint. I will do what I can to push this through and will update you when I have some news on the progress of your complaint. However, I am afraid that I cannot say how long it may take for an ombudsman’s decision to be issued in your case, particularly as it appears that there are legal and regulatory issues involved..

 

Regards

[The Phantom]

You couldn't make it up really, the Ombudsman pondering whether or not they can consider the complaint. Idem took over the loan after they became regulated by the FOS and my complaint is about IDEM's way of handling the complaint since taking it over. Still they are pondering whether or not considering the complaint. It's a hoot really.

These xxxxxxs really know how to play the game.

[The Phantom]

Just got a proper letter through the post from the FOS (not another e-mail),

 

 

they want me to tell them if I would like to add anything for the Ombudsman to consider.

 

Idem still maintains the FOS can't consider my complaint as the loan is unregulated,

 

 

Idem became subject to stricter regulations in April, before they took over the loan and

my complaint is about things that happened after they took over the loan,

so the adjudicator thinks they should be able to consider my complaint (see posts above),

but Idem argues against it and now an Ombudsman has to decide whether they can or cannot consider my complaint.

 

Is there anything I can specifically tell the FOS as to why they should consider my complaint ?

 

 

Any help would be appreciated.

 

This is what they wrote to me:

 

'Idem maintains that your complaint is not one we consider or falls outside our jurisdiction.

 

 

An Ombudsman will review your complaint and make a final decision on whether or not we can consider the merits of your complaint.

 

 

If the Ombudsman's conclusions are different to mine they will explain why and let you reply before they give you their decision.

 

If you have any further points or information you want the ombudsman to consider please send these to me by 23 rd December'

 

any advice would be appreciated !!

[dx100uk]

tell them exactly what you have written here

 

 

it their conduct SINCE they have taken on the account

 

 

dx

[bigboysmithy]

There are lots of us in the same situation with former picture loans,

 

had mine 8 years,

 

wife got cancer 3 years ago and

 

now owe £63,000 on a on a £60,000 loan.

 

like you interest rate only went up.

 

I did query this with web resolutions and could only get a response of

we go on market rates not bank rates.

 

I switched my main mortgage to interest only as to not pay anything off the balance as i see i'm paying the extra for Idem to take eventually.

 

My payments should be £585 a month and

 

i had a years agreement with web to pay £60 a month but now that has run out

 

I done an official offer to Idem for £40 a month.

 

Like you we have all been robbed,

 

with hindsight i found our wage slips when we took the loan and

 

it should never have been lent.

 

There are some things in need of attention around the house but

 

i won't pay out if Idem are likely to take the house at some point.

 

I am currently trying to get some information off Idem and Webb but

 

they seem reluctant to reply probably due to there fraud.

[sgianthebard]

what fraud?

[bigboysmithy]

Idem will not answer questions, such as do you own the loan or are you just servicing it, was there a mortgage indemnity guantee, if so has it been claimed on etc. These are just the start, this loan has changed hands several times and none of them will respond to questions.

[The Phantom]

Interesting information from my case worker at the FOS:

 

"I realise that you feel that Idem is using ‘delaying tactics’ – and to some extent you may be right. However, this is an important issue – as far as I am aware we have not been able to consider a complaint against Idem previously (perhaps because we have not received a complaint since Idem came within our jurisdiction). If it is decided that we can consider your complaint against Idem then this may apply to future complaints we receive as well. So to some extent, yours is a ‘test case’ that we need to get right."

[The Phantom]

Latest update from FOS:

 

Dear Ms Phantom,

 

You should receive the ombudsman’s decision shortly but I have attached a copy. I can now look at your complaint as it concerns events that happened after Idem took over your loan. Before I do that I must give Idem an opportunity to submit any evidence it wishes us to consider in relation to your complaint– as previously it has argued that we could not consider your complaint. If I do not receive anything further from Idem within 14 days, I will proceed with my assessment of your complaint.

 

Please note that as with the question of whether we could consider your complaint, once I have issued my opinion on whether I feel your complaint will win or not, both you and Idem have the right to appeal against that opinion and to ask for an ombudsman’s decision on the outcome of your complaint.

[The Phantom]

Have had a letter from the FOS today, telling me they won't be upholding my complaint against IDEM.

 

 

I argued that by rejecting all my offers for the arrears (extending the loan / capitalization etc) was unreasonable as outlined on the FOS website.

The FOS sees this differently,

 

 

apparently what they state on their website are suggestions and companies don't actually have to do any of that.

And as for extending the loan, it is due to run out just before my 60th birthday,

so extending it could run into my pension age and therefore IDEM is right to reject that option.

(I didn't realize I can still retire at 60, I thought that had increased to 65 now but hey...)

 

 

As for capitalization it would mean I have to pay more every month and I may not be able to afford that,

so Idem was right to refuse that as well.

 

 

I can't understand why though, as to pay the arrears off I would have to pay more every month, too.

To capitalize the arrears would cost me around £37.- more per month.

 

 

At the moment I am paying £20.- more every month to clear the arrears,

at which rate it will take around 13 years to clear them.

 

 

For another 17 quid I should be able to capitalize them, but I can't do that and the FOS even agrees with that.

 

They are advising me to contact IDEM and come to an amicable arrangement with them,

but I have already tried that and they rejected everything I proposed (apart from the £20.- / month I proposed and they accepted for six months) ,

because if I didn't come to an agreement with them they could take me to court and a judge would have to decide what is reasonable.

 

The fact that IDEM kept telling me I couldn't take the matter to the FOS and kept telling me I should take it to the Finance and Leasing Association

(in more than one letter mind you) was a mere mistake and nothing really to worry about.

 

SO the message from the FOS is clear:

don't bother us,

do as they say and if you don't you can find yourself in court for all we care .

And don't belive any of the stuff we publish on our website as companies don't actually have to do any of that.

Funny.

I am not laughing though.

 

I can appeal this and ask for an Ombudsman to look into this

but would have to submit new evidence by the 14th of April.

 

 

Also if I ask for an Ombudsman to review this I would have to get permission / approval of my ex

who is still on the loan papers but has moved away years ago

and is not paying a penny towards it anyway,

so he won't get involved.

 

 

So the road ends here as far as the FOS is concerned anyway.

[The Phantom]

Now that I had a goods night sleep and chilling on this great Bank Holiday I decided to give it another go and ask for the matter to be referred to the Ombudsman for review / appeal.

Have thought about some arguments and will post my letter to the FOS here later.

May not get me anything but can't see why I shouldn't try anyway.

[The Phantom]

Mainly due to the fact that I noticed something quite disturbing: the letter from the FOS telling me they could consider my complaint is dated 12.03.15, I posted this update here on the 13.03.15 as above.

Their letter advising me that they decided not to uphold my complaint is dated 13.03.15 (one day later !) but I only received it yesterday. They can't seriously consider a complaint in one day unless they made up their mind long before and had it already written out before the Ombudsman decided whether they could or couldn't even consider it.

If that is so I find that scandalous. Or if it only took him one day to think it over then that is equally scandalous considering the implications their decisions can have on ordinary people having to deal with such companies and their shady conduct and behaviour.

Edited April 3, 2015 by The Phantom
typos