Need urgent appeal advice - ** WON **

[wiggles40]

Hi everyone.....

 

I'm appealing for advice on behalf of my son , he was dismissed today at work!

 

I will start with the initial background to disciplinary and then the result from todays hearing!

 

BACKGROUND!

 

My son of 20 yrs has worked as a service technician apprentice for a well known car company for past 2.5 years, he has about 8 mths left of apprentice till fully qualified!... He also gives up voluntary one day a week to work on the sales side to train, they were highly impressed with him that they offered him a position on sales that he declined as he wanted to complete he's apprenticeship on technician side..... all in all there very happy with him!

 

Last week he received a call from he's dad asking for help with he's car that had a warning light come up, He stupidly decided without asking prior permission went to BORROW the diagnostic machine to put on he's dad car, before he left work the foreman asked if he had taken this which my boy admitted that he had got it in he's bag to borrow it to try find fault on the car, the machine was put back and the foreman decided to report to manager,( The machine never left the company at any time) they suspended him on full pay and has a disciplinary hearing on monday .... Received a letter from company aswell as recorded CD interview saying it is an extremely serious nature amounting potentially to

 

A} Engaging directly or indirectly in any business or employment which is similar to or in any way prejudicial or detrimental to the interests of the company

 

B} Dishonesty/Theft

 

c} Breach of implied trust and confidence between you and the company

 

A combination of one or all of the above constitutes gross misconduct and if substantiated disciplinary action,which could include dismissal, may be taken against you!

 

On interview he asked why he never sought permission and he replied he knew the answer would be no!... In the recorded interview the HR lady was asking questions, was this allowed also it was the HR lady that informed him of suspension after the manager said i'm dismissing you pending a disciplinary hearing but then it was changed to suspension!!!!

 

Now my argument is,he wasnt taken business away from company as it is a family member that no costs would apply and he didn't thieve it, he was borrowing with every intention of returning.

 

Yes i agree he should of sought permission but he said in interview like a fool that he knew the answer would be no!

 

THE RESULT FROM TODAYS DISCIPLINARY

 

Well sadly my son was dismissed for breach of trust and confidence, the business manager stated that it was a hard decision but this is done as an example to others...... Hmmm!!! The foreman that originally reported this had asked for my son to not loose he's job as it was a mistake!

 

We also no although the business manager conducted the disciplinary it was the owners decision on outcome and if we do appeal its then the owner that does the appeal which is hardly fair!

 

My son received glowing reports throughout the departments and i feel he has been used as a scape goat and we also aware of people within the company who have been disciplined for more serious offences and got off.

 

Also the incident was originally reported on the saturday, this is when the line manager got involved, he allowed my son into the workshop to work un supervised on the monday morning then suspended him approx 3 hours later, surely tho if you dont trust someone why allow them to work??? is this a ground we can used....

 

They agreed that no theft took place and the first accusation was hardly mentioned, the disciplinary consisted of just breach of trust etc...... All the company managers and staff within that branch are up in arms and arguing that he shouldn't of been sacked so surely that shows there is no issue of trust??

 

Please please can someone help us as it saddens me to see my son go through this when he has been loyal and hard working for the company

 

Thank you in advance

[Emmzzi]

Your son has been very daft and dismissal is a reasonable outcome. None of the grounds you suggest are grounds. They can suspend when they like, it does not matter what other people do. The manager has given "his" verdict and that is fair in the eyes of the law.

 

He's really stuffed himself with "I knew the answer would be no."

 

I am struggling to see grounds for appeal and the only route is really heartfelt apology and learning from mistakes. You appear to be justifying his actions, and that will not help either.

 

Can dad apologise for asking son to be a plonker?

[wiggles40]

I'm not justifying he's actions, i agree what he done was a silly mistake, mistakes are what we all make, but to say there dismissing him to set an example is hardly fair surely, each case is individual and not as a group????

 

The machine was not brought up in the disciplinary neither was the intention to do work on a car, being it was he's dad car...just purely about breach of trust, on what grounds tho!!!!

 

Managers and staff within he's workplace have been calling him to offer what ever support he needs there there for him, so surely this shows theres not a breach of trust issue!

 

So are you saying its best not to appeal ???

[Emmzzi]

I'm saying you have no real grounds for appeal but I would do it anyway because what does he have to lose? And stop all the justification, you are still doing it above! He has to learn "I am very sorry, I realise now it was wrong, I will never do it again." That's it! that's all! No dancing around it!

[wiggles40]

He's already apologised and gave he's never do again speech which obviously didn't work! Not justifying just stating that they can use words off the record but wouldn't put it in writing that there setting an example to others!!! ........... I was needing advice on what grounds to appeal on, but you have advised you can't see any!!!

[lbruk]

If you take what the business has said, breach of trust, removing company property etc etc then there really is not anything to appeal against. Although you (and I) may feel that they have acted harshly, they havent done anything that can be construed as against the law.

 

Your son took the property without permission, even though he intended to return it - it is still classed as theft.

 

You can appeal on the fact that you feel the punishment was harsh and they didn't take into account his worth as an employee, but not on the facts of what he has done in my opinion. If the company have set a precedent in dismissing him (or anyone before him) then in the interest in remaining consistent the decision was correct.

[becky2585]

Regardless of what he's done, he's still an apprentice... Which means a potentially hefty breach of contract claim for the remaining 8 months salary...

[wiggles40]

Hi Becky and thank you...... In the disciplinary they have stated that no theft or intention of theft took part and have not dismissed him on the other two grounds just breach of trust..... so to set an example... we know of other employee's who have committed far worse incidents/offences that have had a slapped wrist.... I'm annoyed also because my son had a bad accident at work, although he accidently got he's finger caught on an engine part it ripped the top off he's finger! No first aider on site, no accident book completed and they shoved him in a car with a work colleague whilst bleeding heavily who dropped him off at hospital, he had an operation and a week off work, at the time i stated to my son this should be reported to health and safety but like a fool my son was loyal to the company!!! Grrrrrr........

We know he hasnt been dismissed now for dishonesty/theft but havent a clue on what grounds of breach of trust

[wiggles40]

Hi Becky and thank you...... In the disciplinary they have stated that no theft or intention of theft took part and have not dismissed him on the other two grounds just breach of trust..... so to set an example... we know of other employee's who have committed far worse incidents/offences that have had a slapped wrist.... I'm annoyed also because my son had a bad accident at work, although he accidently got he's finger caught on an engine part it ripped the top off he's finger! No first aider on site, no accident book completed and they shoved him in a car with a work colleague whilst bleeding heavily who dropped him off at hospital, he had an operation and a week off work, at the time i stated to my son this should be reported to health and safety but like a fool my son was loyal to the company!!! Grrrrrr........

We know he hasnt been dismissed now for dishonesty/theft but havent a clue on what grounds of breach of trust...

 

Maybe we shouldn't appeal as no idea on what grounds!!!

[Pusillanimous]

What does your son's employment contract say? Does it spell out the penalties for "borrowing" equipment?

 

My view is that (a) your son did not have the *intention* of misappropriating it, (b) he is a trusted employee about to complete his apprenticeship, which does not sound like the act of a reckless person, © it was for his dad, not for a competitor. and (d) he is young and foolish, and acted on impulse rather than on guile, as a one off, in an attempt to be helpful..

 

He should appeal, on the grounds that the punishment was disproportionate, in light of the above and excessively damaging to his good name, apprenticeship completion and future career prospective. It should have been a final warning, at most.

 

If what you have said is true and there is not anything else you are not telling us about, this is a claim your son can make to the tribunal if his appeal is not successful.

Edited November 5, 2012 by Pusillanimous

[stu007]

Hi

 

a few questions:

 

1. Was he provided with a copy of the companies Disciplinary Procedure?

 

2. Was he informed of his right to be accompanied at the hearing by either a work colleague or union rep?

 

3. Was he given copies of the evidence before the disciplinary?

 

But as Emmzzi has pointed out with the statement he made at the disciplinary I would find it hard to find grounds for an appeal.

[wiggles40]

Hi Pusillanimous,

 

My sons contract is at place of work, but from my son recalls there's nothing that states about borrowing equipment, it was also established in the Disciplinary hearing today that no theft took part and that they believe he was going to borrow, he hasn't been dismissed on theft and dishonesty ! It wasnt even mentioned about doing private work, wasn't dismissed on that ground either, just on the ground of Breach of trust and confidence!!!! but i'm like for what reason???

I have stated the whole truth here and he has a clean record and all other managers in the work place are supportive of my son and praise him for the hard dedicated work he does!!!

 

 

@ stu007 ...Hi

 

I dont believe he was handed a copy of the companies Disciplinary Procedure...... Was suspended Monday late morning, interviewed Wednesday Morning and letter arrived thursday stating Disciplinary hearing today!

 

He was informed of he's right to be accompanied....A work sales manager colleague went in with him

 

He was given a copy of the taped interview and statement made by the foreman

 

 

They accept there was no theft and dishonesty , the mention of work being or intended to be carried out was not brought up so out of the 3 accusations it was just breach of trust that he got done on.....

[wiggles40]

007 my son just confirmed that NO copy of companies disciplinary procedure was given to him

[lbruk]

Handing you a copy of the companies disciplinary procedure is a minor point, unless they have not adhered to it. Was he given it during an induction/employee hand book/contract? as that would be enough for him to accept the terms of employment, also he knew it was wrong hence "i didnt ask because i would have heard no as an answer" so any other defence is null and void.

[wiggles40]

So all in all he should not go for an appeal???

[Pusillanimous]

Definitely.

[lbruk]

you have a right to appeal, and i always believe you should use it.

 

however the appeal needs to be worded in a way that questions the punishment - not the decision. So i would ask for precedents on this type of incident. Past decisions this manager has made in regards to this issue and others, was he an "example" or have they let off other employee for the same type of incident.

[wiggles40]

See ACAS say to appeal and if that fails to go tribunal..... going to speak with my son tomorrow with a refreshed mind and review again! ... He's work manager colleagues have told him to make a one on one meeting appointment with the owner and try that way!! Now that i'm not so sure on! ...................

[wiggles40]

@IBRUK.... we are aware that other employee's have committed far more serious actions and been let off with slap on wrist! Can the manager disclose past decisions , can they use my son as an example?? ....... I haven't a clue how to write an appeal and what to write, need help on this . Looks like i'm going to have to try pay out for a legal solicitor in employment law, time is on our hands

[Pusillanimous]

Wiggles: write it as I suggested. People are inherently compassionate.

[Pusillanimous]

So all in all he should not go for an appeal???

 

By this I meant, should appeal!

[wiggles40]

ok we're struggling.....

 

We are definitely going to appeal the company's decision, however i have tried researching the web on what grounds, i really have not got a clue how to write this appeal ,,,,can anyone advise please???

[lbruk]

Dear sir/madam,

 

i refer to the recent dismissal of xxxx. this letter is to appeal against that decision on the following grounds:

 

- i feel that the decision that was made was not a fair decision based on precedent.

-

 

plus any other things you want to put in - the shorter the better just explaining the key points of appeal.

[wiggles40]

Thank you Ibruk....

 

what is precedent?? and what other grounds can i use, my son has gone into such deep sadness and ive just come out of hospital for suspected heart attack and i'm feeling the stress of this, CAB wont help as my son has to speak to them, acas won't help as impartial and solicitors want to much that i can afford.... so any help is so greatly appreciated, i have sat on this computer all day and just feel i'm getting no where apart from angry at there harshness! The boys at the work place are doing a reference to atate that they have no trust issues with him and would happily work with him, hoping that might help!!!

[Emmzzi]

I think your son is going to have to buck up and talk to CAB. You can't go to every job with him!!