DVLA head ache case: late licensing Penalty issued while being resident abroad with car due to be permanently exported

[trandbert]

We are a family of 4 with a British mum and a French dad (me) and have been living in the UK from 2004 to August 2010. Both kids were born in the UK.

 

We have bought a car registered in the UK in 2005. Before going to live in France in August 2010, we have informed HM revenue and customs and London borrow we were becoming permanent resident in France, and got our revenue and local tax refund in October 2010.

 

Before leaving the country, with our UK registred car, and crossing the channel, I’ve insured our vehicle with a French insurer and stopped our insurance in the UK.

 

While in France, I’ve scheduled the French plate registration (which takes some time while you start a new job, with all sorts of other administration work to do on both countries):

 

· In October 10: I’ve removed the UK headlights with French ones I’ve bought on line

 

· December 10: I have paid to receive the certificate of European compliance from the head quarter of the car maker

 

· January 11: I’ve passed successfully the French MOT: “contrôle technique”

 

· March 11: I’ve paid for French plate registration at the "préfecture" called the : "carte grise”

 

· March/April 11: sent the V5C/4 section 11: notice of permanent export to DVLA

 

End of July and beginning of August 2012 we have received 2 letters from a Bailiff & Debt recovery agency for Late Licensing Penalty issued the 01/01/11 on behalf of DVLA. Both letters were issued in April and May 2012, but took more than 2 months to reach us as the streetless address was the aggregate of our French village with the correct French post code, France and our previous town in England with a wrong post code !!

We were very lucky to have a descendant of Sherlock Holmes working at the Royal Mail and a nephew of commissaire Mégret working at "la poste" in France working as a team to deliver the 2 letters.

I’ve called the Bailiff & Debt recovery agency twice, the first time I’ve informed them it must be a mistake because we were permanent resident in France before the DVLA penalty was issued, and they have kindly recommended me to contact DVLA, but was apologising for not having any entry point for DVLA to give me (not the standard case).

 

The second time, before DVLA’s answer, I’ve asked them what would happen if I didn’t pay the penalty and did refuse to travel to County court from France, noticing my address in France, they have answered, they can’t do anything about it , which I suppose puts us in a safer position to fight back against this unfairness.

 

I’ve mailed and emailed DVLA, in a similar way, except there was more evidence in attachement about our residence in the paper version.

 

I’ve received quickly an email answer from DVLA :

 

"Thank you for your email received on 31/7/12. Your email reference number is xxxx.

 

Having checked DVLA records, I can confirm that we have received the notification of export of your vehicle. However the date supplied on the notification is not the same as you have quoted in your e-mail. Please see the advice below which may be of interest to you.

 

If you have received a penalty letter from a debt collection agency, sent on behalf of DVLA, you should follow the instructions on the letter you have received.

 

If, however, you believe there are circumstances, which should be brought tothe attentionof the debt collection agency, you must put these in writing.Their address canbe found on the front of the letter you have received. This information will then be considered before any further action is taken.”

 

 

 

 

 

 

I’ve already answered with all the detail, to DVLA, which can be summarised:

• we acknowledge we have sent the notice of export in Q1 11 after the penalty was issued (01/01/11), but that is not our point
  
• Our point is:
  
  • We were resident in France at the time the penalty was issued in January 2011, and have received a tax refund letter in October 2010 from HM revenue and customs which acknowledges this fact.
    
  • Once becoming resident in France, we were governed by French laws and so our belongings, including our car staying permanently in public roads in France, therefore we are not liable to pay this penalty as were released from our DVLA licensing duties once leaving the country permanently.
    

It seems it would have been preferable to send the notice of permanent export to DVLA when leaving the UK and before the 1st January 2011, but the V5C/4 section 11 document does not define the permanent export, and I find it easier to officialise the permanent export once you have registred with the new plate, as it is quite a long process with a date difficult to plan beforehand.

In fact I've learnt more from others who were in the same situation on forum and web sites, and if we have left the UK, earlier in the year,r we would haven't faced the issue.

 

Depending on years French laws forces you to registre an imported car in the first month, or the first 6 months after your arrival, the have changed the laws several times, but they do not check it, nor issue a penalty, as they don't want to put you off the registration of french plates which bring them €200.

 

The background questions of the dispute are:

 

·which law prevails in that case?

 

·if the county court is not competent for that case which court is it?

 

·known any similar case and outcome?

 

·How do DVLA manages penalty recovery and a dispute abroad ?

 

·Chances that DVLA drops this case (this case is rather a head ache for DVLA, but still to good to share with other guys in the same situation)?

Edited August 5, 2012 by trandbert
lack of spaces and mistake

[trandbert]

Having checked form V14: apply for a vehicle licence refund

you can not get a refund once the tax disc has expired.

[Raykay]

If the last licence expired before you notified DVLA of the permanent export and you didn't renew it, that is why they are chasing you for the Late Licensing Penalty, the fact that the car was in France at the time wouldn't make any difference as far as that is concerned.

 

But I don't know how they would enforce it ..........

[trandbert]

Yes you are right, our last licence expired before we notified DVLA of the permanent export, and we didn't renew it.

We have to go back to the purpose of the vehicle licensing, isn't it just all about tax, for the purpose of road safety and keeping up to date information about vehicle for the UK?

Private motorist don't have to pay a vehicle license in France anymore, as we were driving only on public road in France with the intention to registre the car with French plates in the upcoming months, we did not feel obliged to renew a license covering only the UK.

Although HM revenue & customs were aware of us leaving the UK tax system, HM revenue & customs did not warn another government tax entity: the DVLA we were leaving the country. So it seems you have to tell each government tax entity you are out of their system, otherwise you get fined.

 

For the enforcement of the penalty: as I suppose DVLA would have to put in place a special process to enforce the recovery of the penalty in France, and ask France government for some support.

I don't think it is worth setting up a complex process for just a few cases a year, especially as the legality of any UK tax on motorist using public road use in France, for a purpose of road safety in the UK, is questionable and likely interfering with the Freedom of movement of persons and goods inside the European community.

[Raykay]

When you took the car to France, until you notified DVLA of the the permanent export, it would be considered to be a 'temporary export' and would still subject to the UK law re: licence, MOT etc. - hence the Late Licensing Penalty.

 

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Motoring/BuyingAndSellingAVehicle/ImportingAndExportingAVehicle/DG_4022582

[trandbert]

Thanks for your answer, this will help me to build my arguments against DVLA, as they will defend exactly the view which make sense from the UK perspective.

I agree in principle if you apply UK laws: you sell your car abroad, so you have to notify DVLA of your temporary export situation.

But UK laws are made for UK residents, they are not compelling to resident in France on French territory, are they?

You have to consider that the presumed offence if there is one (lack of renewing the UK licence) was committed in France, the movable property: the car was remaining permanently in France, not in the UK, so should the UK law applies in that situation really?

In other word, by not paying the DVLA license, I'm not breaking French laws, and I doubt that UK laws are applicable in my case, also it seems they are powerless to enforce it, which seems quite logical.

 

The dispute is about the trigger, for all state taxes the trigger is your country of permanent residence, so why should they be an exception for car licensing where notification of export to DVLA would be the trigger, while for all other state taxes it would be the country of residence?

Once you become resident in France, all your taxes collected at state level (revenues in France, interest and capital gain world wide) stopped being calculated by the UK (tax refund) and start to be calculated by and collected by French state, the exception as far as I know, are revenues in the UK (income tax collected at the source, but taken into account in France tax basis) or council tax on immovable property if you keep one in the UK. As a car is a movable property for which tax is collected at state level, the date of trigger should be the country of residence, however the UK/France double taxation convention 2008 effective in the UK in 2010 does not talk about car or TV licensing.

I suppose if you keep a property in the UK while being resident in France you still have to pay DVLA license for your car staying in the UK (same as for a TV), while for you UK car brought in France for a permanent stay, it makes less sense if you extend the rules defined by the UK/France convention on double taxation to car licensing.

So applying the same trigger as for other taxes collected at state level, means paying the car licence in the country where you are resident as soon as you become resident, and if the movable property stay in France it means paying the car licensing in France, and fortunately car licensing is free currently.

Sorry everyone for the head ache, but I've warned you in the title.

Edited August 5, 2012 by trandbert

[Raykay]

Thanks for your answer, this will help to build my arguments against DVLA, as they will defend exactly your view.

I agree in principle if you apply UK laws: you sell your car abroad, so you have to notify DVLA of your temporary export situation.

But UK laws are made for UK residents, they are not compelling to resident in France while in France, are they?

You have to consider that the presumed offence if there is one (lack of renewing the UK licence) was committed in France, the movable property: the car was in France, not in the UK, so should the UK law applies there really?

 

As your car was still registered with DVLA it was required to be licensed, although it was in France, and as you didn't renew the licence on or before the expiry of the old one, you became liable for the Late Licensing Penalty, which is not a tax - it is treated as a civil debt, (unlike the licence itself which could be considered to be a tax). You may have complicated the matter by not notifying DVLA of the permanent export at the time you moved to France.

 

How DVLA and their debt collectors will handle it, I don't know..........

[dw190]

 

How DVLA and their debt collectors will handle it, I don't know..........

 

To enforce in France would need a Europian Enforcement Certificate which is expensive and takes around a year to get it through the UK courts. So I think as long as the OP remains in France and doesn't take up residence again in the UK he can forget it.

[trandbert]

hum... civil debt sounds like something serious, probably better to pay and to complain afterwards

 

Since the 2008 UK-France double taxation convention is not covering TV or vehicle licensing: I may have to pay safety road tax in both countries for 2011. In France safety road is partialy financed with "cartes grises" and "amendes forfaitaires": Parking Charge Notice, Speed fines, ...

 

Even if we can bet escaping the European Enforcement Certificate, with 3 Brits in the family, we can not predict we won't become UK resident again, seems like the £80 could buy the freedom of move...

...will see if the bailiff & Debt recovery agency can receive a payment 3 months after last notice before county court

[trandbert]

Passing the MOT in the UK while a UK vehicle is used on public road in France does not contribute to safety road: the head lights need to be changed to avoid to dazzle the drivers on the other carriadge way, and with the headlights for the France, you would fail for the MOT in the UK.

Otherwise you could go back to the UK with 2 pairs of healdlights one for France and one for UK, passed the UK MOT with the UK pair come back and change the headlights for France:

what a pain and also the cost to come back to UK would be huge

=>at the date of the UK MOT was due, I was in France, I've passed the MOT in France just to keep it simple and safer.

That is the grey area, where rules are made by people who haven't tryed to export a car themselves.

[renegadeimp]

A civil debt is NOT serious. It's treated the same as if you were in debt to a loan company etc. They wouldnt chase it up abroad, because it would cost them considerably more than the penalty is worth.

[trandbert]

I've received a very nice and polite mail from DVLA:

Firstly, it may be useful for youto know that it is not possible to contest or appeal against a penalty, issuedby DVLA, by phone or email, as a signature is required.

I am afraid as stated in ourprevious reply, if you have received a penalty letter from a debt collectionagency, sent on behalf of DVLA, you should follow the instructions on theletter you have received.

Disappointed that the UK-France double tax convention is not written as I would have wished it was written about vehicle licensing, I've changed my mind, becoming a good boy again ready to surrender myself to the bailiff and DVLA, I've tryed to buy my freedom for £80 on bailiff web site, Web site does not recognise the reference number, then have tried to pay by phone, the Interactive Voice Responder answer: "case close"

have just sent an email to bailiff and to DVLA to clarify this

 

Now I see previous mail, start to hesitate again, amount versus fees to send european enforcement certificate could explain the case close,

also the streeless address with French city + English city used by Bailiff for court warning final notice would disqualify the case in a court I suppose.

 

Will spend 2 weeks in the UK from next week with the UK exported car with French plates don't want to be blocked at the custom for the civil debt

[renegadeimp]

Civil debts are not criminal. You wont be blocked.

[trandbert]

Thanks very much everyone for your valuable inputs

 

So called the bailiff & debt recovery agency who confirmed the case was closed for them, no futher action to fear on their side and advised me to conctact DVLA urgently.

Still awaiting DVLA clarifications, will try to close the case completly in a reasonable manner.

 

After some more thinking about the vehicle license purpose, on top the tax aspect for road safety at country level I was only focusing on initialy, there is also a right granted by a state authority recognised by other countries which allows you to drive abroad, which might be worth paying a price for.

[Tony P]

, there is also a right granted by a state authority recognised by other countries which allows you to drive abroad, which might be worth paying a price for.

 

The Geneva Treaties (GT) are the international authority under which signatry countries allow use of their roads by other signatory country vehicles. For tourists in private vehicles for up to 6 months without local Registration, nor paying local Duty, nor compliance with local Construction & Use regulations - provided the vehicle complies with Construction & Use Regulations in its Registration Country and Customs Duty has been paid on the vehicle.

 

Note - I dont think UK Road Fund Licence counts as Customs Duty (payable on initial Import/Manufacture/Registration).

 

However, as an O/T aside observation, - the EU, pretending to be a power in its own right, allows member states to use those blue bits on their number plates to identify their country of registration, whereas the GT says the old black & white GB plates must be used. There is no opting out of part of the GT.

[trandbert]

Very interesting I didn't know where it was coming from.

The guide for a return in France from expatriation 2011 in the MEF web site (Maison des étrangers de France: the House of the French Abroad) claims that you have to registre with french plates in the first coming month, I've just warned them they were probably too strict against the Geneva Treaties France has signed, and it was mission impossible to registre a car coming from the UK in one month while starting a new job.

 

Benefiting during 6 months of the permission granted by the Geneva treaties to drive in France with UK plates, means construction & Use Regulations for my vehicle have to be paid in its registration country, so I have to pay the SORN for the missed quarter. Also I remember having escaped at least one speed fine thanks to the UK plates and the GT.

 

Looking for the GT, I saw on another forum "owning a vehicle in france" another discussion about DVLA trying to tax with the SORN the use of public road in foreign countries. In this discussion, the definition of public road was:

The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c.22) PART III 29 says this is necessary if using a “Public Road” which PART V 62 defines as, “in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, a road which is repairable at the public expense

so trying to get money from drivers staying up to 6 months abroad with UK plates on non public road in the above sense remains questionable.

 

It would be good to know how SORN revenues are used as Tax for public road safety and as part of communications about UK plates to foreign authorities for the follow up of the Geneva treaties: that would be the fair % for me to pay back to DVLA (not the SORN in full).

Ideally a partial refund could be obtained by DVLA for each entire month spent abroad with UK plates, could work with DVLA data base linked to Automatic Number Plate Recognition cameras installed in every frontiers.

But they are not going to spend money to loose money just to be fairer, unless more and more of voters spend more and more time in continental europe.

Edited August 7, 2012 by trandbert

[Raykay]

The words 'on a public road' were removed from s.29 V.E.R.A 1994 by the Finance Act 2008, now a registered vehicle is required to be licensed, wherever it is. There are some exceptions, one of which is SORN, but you cannot declare SORN if the vehicle is abroad.

 

The Late Licensing Penalty is an automatic process, DVLA know when a licence expires, (and know if one of the exemptions applies,) if a new licence is not taken out, they issue the penalty.

 

The 6 month rule for driving abroad on home country documentation only applies to visitors. If you become resident, different rules may apply - eg. if you become a resident in Great Britain, the 6 month rule does not apply and you must register and licence your vehicle straight away.

Edited August 8, 2012 by Raykay

[trandbert]

Seems quite strange that countries grant visitors 6 months but are far much stricter for their residents.

 

I've asked for payment, by mail but DVLA Swansea does notdeal with penalties only DVLA Enforcement Centre Sidcup does.

 

Looking at the DVLA annual accounts: Vehicle Excise Duty collected in 2011-2012: £5,932 millions

 

Cash losses due to abandoned claims for payments fromcustomers are written off, but only accounted for 0,0013% from total VEDcollected in 2011-2012

 

2009-2010: 619 abandoned claims representing £38,414=>average penalty amount dropped £62

 

2010-2011:734 abandoned claims representing £59,289=>average penalty amount dropped £80

 

2011-2012: 2,072 abandoned claims representing £82,362=>average penalty amount dropped £40

 

the number of abandoned claims tend to raise, but as the penalty has been halved in 2011-2012, the increase of losses does not appear too bad (and still ridiculously tiny against the £6 billions)

 

As my Bailiff as closed my case and DVLA annual account for 2010-2011 has been already published on the web site, with 734 abandoned claims a £80 already written off, mine is obviously included, by chance the change of penalty amount has been halved which is quite remarkable, I suspect overzealousness from my bailiff, by reactivating in 2012 old cases from 2011.

 

Eventually, I've changed my mind again, don’t want to interfere with the already nice published DVLA annual account for 2010-2011 and gives extra work to the accounting Officer.

Only ok to pay initial new license 2010 if I'm contacted by DVLA at my correct address, not chasing after them.

 

Also GT not granting anything for resident coming back to France who have to registre FR plate in the first coming month, still risk a penalty there having reported it a discripancy on the return to France from expat guide to MEF.

Edited August 8, 2012 by trandbert

[trandbert]

I received a nice email from my Bailiff, that only fiew of you will see in your lifeftime:

Thank you for your email

We can confirm the Late Licensing Penalty has beenreturned to DVLA.

Philips are no longer dealing with your case.

Please contact the DVLA directly to discuss further.

Kind Regards

Philips

So what happened then I suppose:

when I've sent my V5C/4 notice of export in Q1 2011:

the DVLA agent has tryed to enter my French address in the DVLA system.

However DVLA data base does not ingest any addresses abroad,

so the agent had to put a Real UK address and chose one randomly: EPSOM KT19 0JT, even not our last address in the UK !

then the street field automatically retrieved 138 Francis Close

was cleared by the agent who filled manually the street address field :

my French Post code

my French village

France

EPSOM KT19 0JT

If DVLA have sent any mail for missing renewing SORN in 2011 it might have reached 138 Francis Close KT19 0JT, but not me in France

 

Once the Bailiff decided to recover the penalty on behalf of DVLA in 2012, after a failed attempt to EPSOM KT19 0JT which might have annoyed the occupier of 138 Francis Close Epsom who had to justifiy itself for not being the recipient, to avoid trouble with bailiff

Royal Mail did make an effort in a second attempt to reach the recipient and decided to send it to the French Post, As I was leaving in a small village, the Post office did not need my street address to reach me.

 

As the DVLA Data Base system is not built to ingest non UK post code, any person missing to renew its SORN while having a single address abroad, which happens when you are resident abroad, will face this problem, .

Then DVLA agent has to use a tricky manual capture to fit an address abroad in DVLA Data Base system:

• it annoys other UK citizens, with Bailiff letters not intended for them
  
• abroad recipients are unlikely reached
  
• Bailiff droping the case.
  
• extra hard work and losses on Royal mail and foreign post offices.
  

What a waste of time for everyone!

 

As DVLA data base system is by principle not able to ingest any address abroad, and fixing it might means important development, resulting in less strict rule with a risk of loss of performance for UK resident, for loss accounted only for 0,0013% VED collected in 2011-2012.

For economic reason, I suspect the loophole is going to remain for a while, unless UK government decides to change UK law to drop the penalty for any resident abroad from the begining when they were resident abroad at the time of license renewing. HM revenue & customs could easily send this information to DVLA, and DVLA to reconciliate with its data base.

If UK can not enforce a UK law to any resident abroad, this UK law becomes meaningless for this category of person. Not talking about legality at international level and not going to investigate that with costly layers.

Also countries having signed for GT, French police can not distinguish UK plates for tourist from UK plates from French resident, and even if French police was connected to DVLA data base (DVLA considering only UK address, ignoring tax return from HM revenue & customs), would not be able to enforce you to registre your plate in a month.

Symetricaly the UK can not distinguish FR plates for tourists from UK residents coming back

and can not enforce them to registre to UK plates overnight.

Unless Police starts to control all foreign vehicles, and ask for proof or residency, which would put off lots of tourists, company vehicle and destroy jobs....

Also in preparing a permanent export, there is a grey area, as your vehicle has to pass from the UK system to the FR system AND your UK vehicle can not comply to both MOTs in FR and the UK at the same time (because of headlights), to my opinion complying to the MOT of the country of residence should be the one chosen by laws for safety reson, reagardless of the duties attached to vehicle license if any remaining (by mistake).

So if UK laws are bad for youself and your vehicle and road safety in France, France Laws should force the FR resident to infringe the UK laws, if not agreed in convention between our countries

 

I thought plates was a boring topics, but at the contrary you can become passionate about it !

Thanks everyone for your help!

Edited August 11, 2012 by trandbert

[Raykay]

You cannot register a vehicle with DVLA at a foreign address, it must be be a GB address.

 

The V5C/4 should have been sent to to DVLA when you exported your car, and you should have registered it in France when you arrived, as you didn't, that is why you had the problems.

[trandbert]

You cannot register a vehicle with DVLA at a foreign address, it must be be a GB address.

I appologize if my emails were too long, and you become a bit confused, let me clarify:

before sending the V5C/4, my address was obviously in the UK

The mistake came after I've sent the V5C/4, that's how I realised, the DVLA system does not cope with foreign address, even once having sent the V5C/4

In other word the DVLA allows you to export a car, but does not expect you to leave the country

Edited August 11, 2012 by trandbert

[trandbert]

The V5C/4 should have been sent to to DVLA when you exported your car.

 

the V5C/4 and section 11, as far as I remember does not define the date of export date.

What is the definition of the export date:

1. the date claimed to HM revenue and customs you leave the UK with the clear intention in your mind to get foreign plate
   
2. the date you apply for FR plate in prefecture
   
3. the date you obtain your FR plates (2 or 3 weeks later)
   

I chose the date you obtain your FR plates without knowing what was right

[Raykay]

When you exported your car, it became liable for registration etc. in France, which, according to your first post, you did not do until March 2011. The V5C/4 form does not need an address to where the car is going, it is just to inform DVLA that the vehicle has been exported.

 

The mistake was not sending the V5C/4 to DVLA and registering the car in France as soon as you moved there.

[Raykay]

the V5C/4 and section 11, as far as I remember does not define the date of export date.

What is the definition of the export date:

1. the date claimed to HM revenue and customs you leave the UK with the clear intention in your mind to get foreign plate
   
2. the date you apply for FR plate in prefecture
   
3. the date you obtain your FR plates (2 or 3 weeks later)
   

I chose the date you obtain your FR plates without knowing what was right

 

All that is in the V5C/4 is a box for the date of export - the date the car was taken out of Great Britain - and a box for your signature and date.

[trandbert]

Yes mistakes on both side, DVLA's mistake was: not to be clear about the date of notification of permanent export, as it my case there is a six month gap

 

I don't know from where the Bailiff got this random KT19 0JT, as they are acting on behalf on DVLA

1. either it is was made up by a DVLA agent
   
2. either it is was made up by the Bailiff
   

if it was 2, it would be more serious, as it was like the Bailiff was not 100% acting on behalf of DVLA.

Their second mistake is that they send a court warning final notice to a random address KT19 0JT