Extracted from section 17, The Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002: the registered keeper shall immediately notify the Secretary of State of the fact and, at the same time, surrender the registration document to him. If this is the applicable law, I'm afraid the second part of the sentence that I've highlighted in bold makes things more difficult, as to registre FR plates you need to surrender the DVLA registration document to the FR authority: the prefecture ! However, following this discussion, it make sense to take the date of crossing the border (as for any other export) as the date to take into consideration in V5C/4. In my case the official date for the permanent export was the 26/08/10. I've just misunderstood the date to take into consideration in V5C/4, errare humanum est. Will send a letter explaining to DVLA that I've musunderstood the date to take into consideration in V5C/4, with all proofs. This should sort out this case, If UK legal definition for permanent export is the one you taught me and P85 claims prevail against V5C/4 claim. If DVLA closes the case, this will prove DVLA is rather a public service than just a tax machine. Thanks Raykay for helping me building these thoughts.

This seems a short answer but I guess it was because 3 was a bit speculative

When you are moving country with a family of 4, you don't have much time left to browse over the internet. Well done with you brilliant searches! but you acknowledge you have to dig arround over the internet to find the permanent export dates and notifications for a vehicle, and that this key information is not explained to consumers on DVLA web site. Adding the additional clarifications below would not do any harm to the permanent export section of DVLA web site : the date to take into consideration for the permanent export is: the date the vehicle leaves the UK (and not the date it is registred with foreign number plates) V5C/4 has to be sent to DVLA before the day the vehicle is leaving the UK at the latest - section 17, The Road Vehicle (Registration and Licensing) Regulations 2002 Once the date of export submitted to DVLA on V5C/4 has passed, the vehicle is no longer allowed on UK public roads until it is registred with foreign number plates obtained with the concerned authority abroad (and ideally give a list here for most common export destinations). [not really sure about 3, but the implication of notifying DVLA a permanent export should be explained with respect of UK public road, and see if it affects the freedom of move or not, if an unexpected event was bringing you back to the UK, just after the permanent export, you would need to know if you could still drive the exported vehicle with UK plates on public road in the UK, and for how many days, or if you would have to take another transport mean to avoid being clamped] Making things clearer for citizens-tax payers-motorist and more consumer friendly has always been the best policy for public services, and written in a similar way as above, I'm pretty sure I would have avoided these problems.

The point I'm making is: If it was just more explained on V5C/4 or section 11, I would not be here talking about it. DVLA V5C/4 and section 11 are very slim and both fail to explain to the private motorist, who need more pedagogy than professional exporters, what is the definition of the date of permanent export of your vehicle and when to send your notice of permanent export. DVLA web site is rather vague about the permanent export date, it is just mentionning When a vehicle registered in the United Kingdom (UK) is taken out of the country for 12 months or more, it’s regarded as being permanently exported from the UK. it does not stipulate: the date you have to claim the permanent export and send the V5C/4 is the the first day abroad of the 12 months (continuous period), or if is the last day of the 12th months (continuous period), so no definition of the date of permanent export, one could undestand it as: you can choose whatever day in the 12 months period to send the V5C/4. [*]No mentionning of the penalty you may face by not renewing the SORN in the 12 months period abroad, while it is rather a specific process [*]What would happen if your UK registred vehicle was staying every years 11 months abroad, and coming back one month every year in the UK, would it be a permanent export or not? [*]everything remain extremely fuzzy, for the consumer to remain confused about the true permanent export date to claim on V5C/4 My undestanding of the law, I might be wrong, is that the legal date for the permanent export has nothing to to do with the one claimed of the V5C/4: Someone can make a false claim, and you have to be able to challenge it against the legal date for a permanent export for non commercial good, which I suppose apply to any goods. A GB registred vehicle could be permanently exported (staying more then 12 months abroad), from the legal point of view, but the owner with a GB address, would decide not to send the V5C/4 but rather prefer to renew SORN from abroad to avoid speed fine in the abroad country for years, looking alike a GB tourist driving abroad on GT ground. If I've understood you correctly, and you have been impressive about UK laws, the date for the permanent export for non commercial goods, would be once your vehicle arrive on the other side of the channel for the driver to live abroad, in line with what I claimed on my P85 sent to HR Revenue & customs before leaving the UK. Once the permanent export has already been materialised according to UK laws by non UK resident, regardless of the DVLA notification V5C/4 sent or not, it does not make sense to apply the same enforcement process as a failure to renew SORN for GB resident. Trying the same enforcement based on DVLA data base with GB addresses only, just derail, with letters automaticaly sent to GB post code, with Bailiff annoying occupiers, and just making life harder for Royal Mail, when DVLA enforcement team try to aggregate a random GB post code with an address abroad. Now what would be interesting to find is: the true legal definition of the date of permanent export for any non commercial goods which applies in the UK (and in France) for any goods as it is difficult to believe this is the date claimed on DVLA V5C/4, as you just need another definition for GB resident not sending the V5C/4 while their vehicle are staying more than 12 months abroad while carrying on renewing their SORN from abroad. At the contrary, if the legal definition for the date of permanent export for a vehicle in the UK, was really the date claimed on DVLA V5C/4, then as long you would pay you SORN, and keep a GB address, it could never be challenged under UK laws, but only under laws abroad.

Yes mistakes on both side, DVLA's mistake was: not to be clear about the date of notification of permanent export, as it my case there is a six month gap I don't know from where the Bailiff got this random KT19 0JT, as they are acting on behalf on DVLA either it is was made up by a DVLA agent either it is was made up by the Bailiff if it was 2, it would be more serious, as it was like the Bailiff was not 100% acting on behalf of DVLA. Their second mistake is that they send a court warning final notice to a random address KT19 0JT

the V5C/4 and section 11, as far as I remember does not define the date of export date. What is the definition of the export date: the date claimed to HM revenue and customs you leave the UK with the clear intention in your mind to get foreign plate the date you apply for FR plate in prefecture the date you obtain your FR plates (2 or 3 weeks later) I chose the date you obtain your FR plates without knowing what was right

I appologize if my emails were too long, and you become a bit confused, let me clarify: before sending the V5C/4, my address was obviously in the UK The mistake came after I've sent the V5C/4, that's how I realised, the DVLA system does not cope with foreign address, even once having sent the V5C/4 In other word the DVLA allows you to export a car, but does not expect you to leave the country

I received a nice email from my Bailiff, that only fiew of you will see in your lifeftime: Thank you for your email We can confirm the Late Licensing Penalty has beenreturned to DVLA. Philips are no longer dealing with your case. Please contact the DVLA directly to discuss further. Kind Regards Philips So what happened then I suppose: when I've sent my V5C/4 notice of export in Q1 2011: the DVLA agent has tryed to enter my French address in the DVLA system. However DVLA data base does not ingest any addresses abroad, so the agent had to put a Real UK address and chose one randomly: EPSOM KT19 0JT, even not our last address in the UK ! then the street field automatically retrieved 138 Francis Close was cleared by the agent who filled manually the street address field : my French Post code my French village France EPSOM KT19 0JT If DVLA have sent any mail for missing renewing SORN in 2011 it might have reached 138 Francis Close KT19 0JT, but not me in France Once the Bailiff decided to recover the penalty on behalf of DVLA in 2012, after a failed attempt to EPSOM KT19 0JT which might have annoyed the occupier of 138 Francis Close Epsom who had to justifiy itself for not being the recipient, to avoid trouble with bailiff Royal Mail did make an effort in a second attempt to reach the recipient and decided to send it to the French Post, As I was leaving in a small village, the Post office did not need my street address to reach me. As the DVLA Data Base system is not built to ingest non UK post code, any person missing to renew its SORN while having a single address abroad, which happens when you are resident abroad, will face this problem, . Then DVLA agent has to use a tricky manual capture to fit an address abroad in DVLA Data Base system: it annoys other UK citizens, with Bailiff letters not intended for them abroad recipients are unlikely reached Bailiff droping the case. extra hard work and losses on Royal mail and foreign post offices. What a waste of time for everyone! As DVLA data base system is by principle not able to ingest any address abroad, and fixing it might means important development, resulting in less strict rule with a risk of loss of performance for UK resident, for loss accounted only for 0,0013% VED collected in 2011-2012. For economic reason, I suspect the loophole is going to remain for a while, unless UK government decides to change UK law to drop the penalty for any resident abroad from the begining when they were resident abroad at the time of license renewing. HM revenue & customs could easily send this information to DVLA, and DVLA to reconciliate with its data base. If UK can not enforce a UK law to any resident abroad, this UK law becomes meaningless for this category of person. Not talking about legality at international level and not going to investigate that with costly layers. Also countries having signed for GT, French police can not distinguish UK plates for tourist from UK plates from French resident, and even if French police was connected to DVLA data base (DVLA considering only UK address, ignoring tax return from HM revenue & customs), would not be able to enforce you to registre your plate in a month. Symetricaly the UK can not distinguish FR plates for tourists from UK residents coming back and can not enforce them to registre to UK plates overnight. Unless Police starts to control all foreign vehicles, and ask for proof or residency, which would put off lots of tourists, company vehicle and destroy jobs.... Also in preparing a permanent export, there is a grey area, as your vehicle has to pass from the UK system to the FR system AND your UK vehicle can not comply to both MOTs in FR and the UK at the same time (because of headlights), to my opinion complying to the MOT of the country of residence should be the one chosen by laws for safety reson, reagardless of the duties attached to vehicle license if any remaining (by mistake). So if UK laws are bad for youself and your vehicle and road safety in France, France Laws should force the FR resident to infringe the UK laws, if not agreed in convention between our countries I thought plates was a boring topics, but at the contrary you can become passionate about it ! Thanks everyone for your help!

Seems quite strange that countries grant visitors 6 months but are far much stricter for their residents. I've asked for payment, by mail but DVLA Swansea does notdeal with penalties only DVLA Enforcement Centre Sidcup does. Looking at the DVLA annual accounts: Vehicle Excise Duty collected in 2011-2012: £5,932 millions Cash losses due to abandoned claims for payments fromcustomers are written off, but only accounted for 0,0013% from total VEDcollected in 2011-2012 2009-2010: 619 abandoned claims representing £38,414=>average penalty amount dropped £62 2010-2011:734 abandoned claims representing £59,289=>average penalty amount dropped £80 2011-2012: 2,072 abandoned claims representing £82,362=>average penalty amount dropped £40 the number of abandoned claims tend to raise, but as the penalty has been halved in 2011-2012, the increase of losses does not appear too bad (and still ridiculously tiny against the £6 billions) As my Bailiff as closed my case and DVLA annual account for 2010-2011 has been already published on the web site, with 734 abandoned claims a £80 already written off, mine is obviously included, by chance the change of penalty amount has been halved which is quite remarkable, I suspect overzealousness from my bailiff, by reactivating in 2012 old cases from 2011. Eventually, I've changed my mind again, don’t want to interfere with the already nice published DVLA annual account for 2010-2011 and gives extra work to the accounting Officer. Only ok to pay initial new license 2010 if I'm contacted by DVLA at my correct address, not chasing after them. Also GT not granting anything for resident coming back to France who have to registre FR plate in the first coming month, still risk a penalty there having reported it a discripancy on the return to France from expat guide to MEF.

Very interesting I didn't know where it was coming from. The guide for a return in France from expatriation 2011 in the MEF web site (Maison des étrangers de France: the House of the French Abroad) claims that you have to registre with french plates in the first coming month, I've just warned them they were probably too strict against the Geneva Treaties France has signed, and it was mission impossible to registre a car coming from the UK in one month while starting a new job. Benefiting during 6 months of the permission granted by the Geneva treaties to drive in France with UK plates, means construction & Use Regulations for my vehicle have to be paid in its registration country, so I have to pay the SORN for the missed quarter. Also I remember having escaped at least one speed fine thanks to the UK plates and the GT. Looking for the GT, I saw on another forum "owning a vehicle in france" another discussion about DVLA trying to tax with the SORN the use of public road in foreign countries. In this discussion, the definition of public road was: The Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (c.22) PART III 29 says this is necessary if using a “Public Road” which PART V 62 defines as, “in England and Wales and Northern Ireland, a road which is repairable at the public expense so trying to get money from drivers staying up to 6 months abroad with UK plates on non public road in the above sense remains questionable. It would be good to know how SORN revenues are used as Tax for public road safety and as part of communications about UK plates to foreign authorities for the follow up of the Geneva treaties: that would be the fair % for me to pay back to DVLA (not the SORN in full). Ideally a partial refund could be obtained by DVLA for each entire month spent abroad with UK plates, could work with DVLA data base linked to Automatic Number Plate Recognition cameras installed in every frontiers. But they are not going to spend money to loose money just to be fairer, unless more and more of voters spend more and more time in continental europe.

Thanks very much everyone for your valuable inputs So called the bailiff & debt recovery agency who confirmed the case was closed for them, no futher action to fear on their side and advised me to conctact DVLA urgently. Still awaiting DVLA clarifications, will try to close the case completly in a reasonable manner. After some more thinking about the vehicle license purpose, on top the tax aspect for road safety at country level I was only focusing on initialy, there is also a right granted by a state authority recognised by other countries which allows you to drive abroad, which might be worth paying a price for.

I've received a very nice and polite mail from DVLA: Firstly, it may be useful for youto know that it is not possible to contest or appeal against a penalty, issuedby DVLA, by phone or email, as a signature is required. I am afraid as stated in ourprevious reply, if you have received a penalty letter from a debt collectionagency, sent on behalf of DVLA, you should follow the instructions on theletter you have received. Disappointed that the UK-France double tax convention is not written as I would have wished it was written about vehicle licensing, I've changed my mind, becoming a good boy again ready to surrender myself to the bailiff and DVLA, I've tryed to buy my freedom for £80 on bailiff web site, Web site does not recognise the reference number, then have tried to pay by phone, the Interactive Voice Responder answer: "case close" have just sent an email to bailiff and to DVLA to clarify this Now I see previous mail, start to hesitate again, amount versus fees to send european enforcement certificate could explain the case close, also the streeless address with French city + English city used by Bailiff for court warning final notice would disqualify the case in a court I suppose. Will spend 2 weeks in the UK from next week with the UK exported car with French plates don't want to be blocked at the custom for the civil debt

Passing the MOT in the UK while a UK vehicle is used on public road in France does not contribute to safety road: the head lights need to be changed to avoid to dazzle the drivers on the other carriadge way, and with the headlights for the France, you would fail for the MOT in the UK. Otherwise you could go back to the UK with 2 pairs of healdlights one for France and one for UK, passed the UK MOT with the UK pair come back and change the headlights for France: what a pain and also the cost to come back to UK would be huge =>at the date of the UK MOT was due, I was in France, I've passed the MOT in France just to keep it simple and safer. That is the grey area, where rules are made by people who haven't tryed to export a car themselves.

hum... civil debt sounds like something serious, probably better to pay and to complain afterwards Since the 2008 UK-France double taxation convention is not covering TV or vehicle licensing: I may have to pay safety road tax in both countries for 2011. In France safety road is partialy financed with "cartes grises" and "amendes forfaitaires": Parking Charge Notice, Speed fines, ... Even if we can bet escaping the European Enforcement Certificate, with 3 Brits in the family, we can not predict we won't become UK resident again, seems like the £80 could buy the freedom of move... ...will see if the bailiff & Debt recovery agency can receive a payment 3 months after last notice before county court

Thanks for your answer, this will help me to build my arguments against DVLA, as they will defend exactly the view which make sense from the UK perspective. I agree in principle if you apply UK laws: you sell your car abroad, so you have to notify DVLA of your temporary export situation. But UK laws are made for UK residents, they are not compelling to resident in France on French territory, are they? You have to consider that the presumed offence if there is one (lack of renewing the UK licence) was committed in France, the movable property: the car was remaining permanently in France, not in the UK, so should the UK law applies in that situation really? In other word, by not paying the DVLA license, I'm not breaking French laws, and I doubt that UK laws are applicable in my case, also it seems they are powerless to enforce it, which seems quite logical. The dispute is about the trigger, for all state taxes the trigger is your country of permanent residence, so why should they be an exception for car licensing where notification of export to DVLA would be the trigger, while for all other state taxes it would be the country of residence? Once you become resident in France, all your taxes collected at state level (revenues in France, interest and capital gain world wide) stopped being calculated by the UK (tax refund) and start to be calculated by and collected by French state, the exception as far as I know, are revenues in the UK (income tax collected at the source, but taken into account in France tax basis) or council tax on immovable property if you keep one in the UK. As a car is a movable property for which tax is collected at state level, the date of trigger should be the country of residence, however the UK/France double taxation convention 2008 effective in the UK in 2010 does not talk about car or TV licensing. I suppose if you keep a property in the UK while being resident in France you still have to pay DVLA license for your car staying in the UK (same as for a TV), while for you UK car brought in France for a permanent stay, it makes less sense if you extend the rules defined by the UK/France convention on double taxation to car licensing. So applying the same trigger as for other taxes collected at state level, means paying the car licence in the country where you are resident as soon as you become resident, and if the movable property stay in France it means paying the car licensing in France, and fortunately car licensing is free currently. Sorry everyone for the head ache, but I've warned you in the title.