Haven't received a disciplinary decision

[stu007]

Hi

 

I have to agree on the CCTV that they should have signage displayed and there should also be a company policy and procedure on the use, storage, etc which would also come under the Data Protection Act as well.

 

These PDFs on CCTV may be of help:

[Pusillanimous]

Bear in mind though, that the DPA does not come under the ET jurisdiction.

[markl1987]

Any news wander?

[wander27]

Hi all, sorry I have been away from this for a while but things took a turn for the worse personally so I had to put all this work stuff to one side as it suddenly became the last of my worries.

 

However I do have some news.....after being told over and over again that I would receive my outcome BEFORE I went on annual leave and was out of the country, low and behold it got posted out to me the day I WENT out of the country!

 

I have been given a Final written warning for breach of trust and breach of staff purchase procedures.

 

Obviously I am a little concerned as I know I have 7 days to appeal from the date of the letter, however being out of the country for 2 weeks seems to prevent me from doing this. I have emailed my concerns to headed office and they have said I need to call my area manager to discuss my "options of appeal"

 

Is this a wise idea?

Any idea on how to form an appeal letter?

[Pusillanimous]

If you are guilty as charged, best take the final warning on the chin - at least you still have your job, and it was a close call. If you appeal, there is technically a clause that, whilst they can overturn the decision (how likely is that?) they can also impose a more severe sanction, such as dismissal, on re-examining the facts. The call is yours. From where I am sitting, it looks as though you have had a lucky escape.

[Emmzzi]

I agree, I would have dismissed and think you got off lightly. I'd let it be.

[altobelli]

Hi wander27, firstly congratulations in keeping your job. It is difficult to say what to do with this. I can see where Pusillanimous and Emmzzi are coming from in advising you not to appeal, however I personally would take the matter further.

 

I think your employer has behaved appallingly. I'm not sure why you were suspended in the first place (couldn't you just have been told not to take unwanted items until the investigation was over) and why it took from end July until now to conduct an investigation when there appears to be very little in the way of disputed facts God only knows. I don't think you have done anything wrong, taking the unwanted items was common practice, including by the person hearing your grievance (was he investigated?), you didn't cost the company any money, and you didn't benefit yourself. You made less than £5 which you donated to charity. For this, you have been suspended on full pay for almost four months - from a commercial point of view this is crazy, and the owners/shareholders of the company deserve better management than this. It never ceases to amaze me why a more common sense approach is not taken at the start of matters such as this. The company could circulate an email/memo stating something along the lines of 'It has come to our attention that some staff have been availing themselves of items which the company intends to dispose of to charity. Although these items are not needed by the company, as per company policy, they are not available to staff'. Problem solved!

 

You have been placed under a huge amount of stress by the excessive timeframe of the investigation (recognised as excessive by among others, ACAS and your solicitor), your employer has done a lousy job of looking after your welfare by keeping in contact with you during this time, there is every chance that they hoped you would resign in the meantime, and the outcome is that you are being warned for theft.

 

I would certainly appeal (although as Pusillanimous correctly points out, there is a possibility that the punishment could be increased, I know of at least one very similar case to yours where a dismissal for a matter such as this was successfully contested at ET). Pusillanimous is also right in that there is a good chance the appeal may be merely a rubber-stamping of the original decision, they often are, as the person hearing the appeal won't want to be seen to be contradicting another manager, but I would use the appeal facility if it available. In any case, I would not be signing or accepting any warning, and I would be putting in writing why. I would be wanting to know if you were been treated differently to other members of staff who did the same thing. Really, it is the people involved in this investigation who should be warned, they have caused stress to you and have squandered your comapny's resources. Can you be satisfied that the outcome of this process had nothing to do with the fact that you raised a grievance youself earlier?

 

I have gone into detail about how I would approach this, I would not accept having my reputation damaged when I had done nothing wrong, and I would be willing to risk losing my job for that.

 

However, each person is different. I know from your earlier posts that you were very concerned about losing your job and finding another position. So I could understand if you chose to accept the situation due to the risks involved in appealing, it depends on your own personal views. If you do appeal, I would describe in detail your dis-satisfaction with the length of the original process and would highlight the circumstances, the immaterial amount involved and the fact that the practice was widespread and cost the company nothing. Highlight that the guidleines weren't made clear, that the practice was common and known about by senior management, and that being aware of the change of policy, you have no intention of taking any more unwanted items.

[Emmzzi]

altobelli - he's a senior manager, he's been there a decade, he only donated monies to charity AFTER getting caught. I also do not see an update on the "abuse of staff purchase policy" charge.

 

I think he is probably a strong worker and they have gone out of their way to keep him; as these decisions are usually fast (ANY kind if theft = out! especially if you are senior) I would expect a lot of persuading has gone on behnd the scenes which is behind the delay.

 

He has a second chance. There is no way I would be throwing it back in their faces by appealling.

[becky2585]

altobelli - he's a senior manager, he's been there a decade, he only donated monies to charity AFTER getting caught. I also do not see an update on the "abuse of staff purchase policy" charge.

 

I think he is probably a strong worker and they have gone out of their way to keep him; as these decisions are usually fast (ANY kind if theft = out! especially if you are senior) I would expect a lot of persuading has gone on behnd the scenes which is behind the delay.

 

He has a second chance. There is no way I would be throwing it back in their faces by appealling.

 

Its difficult though isn't it. If the employer was unscrupulous and then issued a minor warning over minor misconduct which then lead to dismissal, not appealing it would effectively mean the employee agreed with the sanction. Which means it would be harder to claim unfair dismissal.

 

The ACAS guidance does state that it's unwise for an employer to increase the sanction to avoid arguments of victimisation - so you'd have to balance the risk of dismissal occurring now, or dismissal occurring in the future, with whether the final written warning was justifiably issued before deciding whether to appeal. It's a tough call!

[altobelli]

Emmzzi, your last post is exactly why I would appeal this if I was in the OP's shoes.

 

The fact that the OP has been there around ten years, was in a senior position, and was along with many other staff unaware of the lost property guidelines (there appears to have been no written policy in place) just goes to show how badly the policy was communicated to staff and why an email or memo to staff could have saved everyone a lot of time and money.

 

He has been involved in a practice which was common among staff, of different levels, which he didn't know was wrong, which cost the company nothing, and which netted him the sum of £5, or £4.95 to be precise, which he donated to charity (does he say the donation was after he was called to the disciplinary meeting or as you say 'caught' - I may have missed it, but I don't think he does). He was suspended for four months, while an investigation was carried out, even though the key facts were not in dispute and there was no real reason to suspend him. The excessive time taken for the investigation caused him stress, for which he had to visit his GP. The extent of the distress he was suffering is obvious from his posts during that time. In my view he did nothing wrong, and blame, if any must be assigned, should go to those who failed to communicate company policy or who oversaw the investigation process, as the cost to the company of all this has been exorbitant. Having done nothing wrong, he has received a written warning. For this, you are suggesting that he should be grateful. There is also the fact that the investigation may be in some way related to the fact that he previously raised a grievance.

 

It may be that the time taken for the investigation was due to the fact that there were moves behind the scenes to impose a lesser punishment, we can't know this. It may of course also be that the company wished to dismiss him, took legal advice during this time and realised they would be up the creek legally if they did this and decided to give a warning instead. Either way, the length of the investigation is unacceptable, and this is supported by the neutral view of ACAS.

 

From the information given he is not a 'thief' as most people understand the meaning of the term, I doubt the police would show any interest in investigating a matter such as this.

 

I'm concerned that you view this or indeed any appeal as 'throwing back in their faces' an opportunity. An appeal should be a neutral re-evaluation of the grievance procedure and its outcome, it should be open to anyone who feels the initial decision was unfair and its outcome should not be in any way prejudiced by the initial decision. If the person hearing the appeal goes into it with the attitude that the appellant is insolent to appeal what is my view an unfair decision made after an overly long investigation and that he was lucky to have got off with a warning, then the appeal will be compromised. It is in my view precisely this attitude which leads to so many appeals being mere rubber stamping exercises of the initial decision.

 

I think it is clear what I would do if I was the OP, but it will also be clear to him how some people may view his decision to appeal, or how they may even pre-judge the appeal itself. It is a difficult decision, he needs to balance upholding his good reputation with the risks involved should he continue to fight (I sense that for this OP keeping his job is very important to him), while also covering himself procedurally should any further disciplinary issues come up or should he have to bring an unfair dismissal case in the future.

[mariefab]

It's hard to advise because we don't know what the staff shopping procedure breach was.

 

We've had people on here before who've been fairly dismissed for letting someone else use their discount card.

So, if it was something like that, you might want to accept the FWW and be very careful when you go back.

[Pusillanimous]

I disagree it is a "training" issue. It is common sense. As Emzzi says, here is a senior manager in charge of lost property, taking first pickings and selling them on e-bay. It is poor judgement to remove any property from your employer without making sure it has been authorised and recorded by someone in the firm. It is not relevant that "everybody else does it". Wander is supposed to be setting an example, as a manager.

 

A reasonable person ought to know that it only takes one complaint, and the employers are obliged to investigate.

 

In Wander's place, I would just carry on working until he or she retires, or finds another opportunity. The written warning will expire within a year (?)

 

If he or she has been fitted up or is victim of untrue allegations, then that that would be a different matter.

 

If I were wander, and guilty as charged, I would write a grovelling letter of abject thanks, apologies and reassurances.

[altobelli]

Pusillanimous, I can't agree with you on this one, sorry.

 

It is indeed a matter of common sense, but common sense says policies are communicated to all staff. If he's been there ten years and is unaware of the policy then something has gone very wrong with training and communication of policies. Its lost property, not company property, and I'm assuming we're talking about lost property which has been unclaimed for an appropriate period of time. He sold some on ebay (for £4.95). If one takes lost property to the poilce and it is unclaimed, one gets to keep that property after a time. If the police find lost property and it is unclaimed, they sell it to charity, same as the OP did. It is highly relevant that, as you put it, 'everybody else does it'. It means that what was happening was generally accepted practice, if the people responsible for issuing company guidelines were aware of this they ought to have circulated an email/memo to staff to make the guideline clear - this could have solved the problem. He's wasn't doing anything which was seen by staff, including management, as wrong, so his obligation to lead by example isn't relevant here.

 

What you don't mention is the excessive time taken for the investigation (reasonable people in ACAS have commented on this excessive time), and the resultant stress that this has caused the OP. He was suspended for a lengthy period of time and the investigation itself (when the key facts were not in dispute) must have used a large amount of company resources. This shows a staggering lack of common sense and if I was a shareholder/owner of the company I would be querying whether the approach taken delivered value for money, particularly when making all staff aware of the problem could have resolved the issue without the need for an investigation. There is no obligation for the company to launch a formal investigation, they are entitled to take informal action to resolve a problem if they choose to do so.

 

The warning will probably expire in 6 months or one year, and I take your point that there is an argument for accepting it and continuing to work. Personally, I wouldn't do this, as he is being branded a thief or untrustworthy, and either of these is an untrue allegation in the circumstances.

 

I certainly wouldn't be apologising, I think it is the OP who is due an apology. He has been placed under a great deal of stress and been kept away from his job and had his reputation damaged because the company has not effectively communicated its own procedures, from the posts I have seen nothing to suggest that the company will address its problems with communication going forward. I don't think he has anything to be sorry or grateful for. He has done nothing wrong. He hasn't been 'charged' - its a workplace disciplinary, not a criminal court. Also, and this is an important point, his company appears to take an iron-fisted approach to enforcement of company procedures, even if long-term generally accepted practice differs from the procedures, and even if the procedure doesn't exist in writing. He is on a written warning for basically doing nothing wrong. If he is in the future a victim of heavy-handed disciplinary procedures at this company, he is liable to be dismissed. If he doesn't appeal the warning and instead thanks the company for it, as you suggest, he could weaken any unfair dismissal claim he may have in the future.

[mariefab]

There were 4 counts of gross misconduct listed in the disciplinary letter.

 

1. Theft and fraud from the company

2. Breach of company policy and procedures - Removal of company property without the store managers permission.

3. Breach of Trust

4. Breach of staff purchase procedure (this wasn't in relation to the lost property)

 

1 & 2 related to the lost property issue.

They are not mentioned in the final written warning.

The employer seems to have dropped these after (much) further investigation.

 

The final written warning is for:

3 which probably relates to the OP originally denying the allegations at the initial investigation.

& 4 which hasn't been discussed at all on this thread.

 

So, unless warner states how the staff shopping procedures were breached, it's difficult to judge whether the penalty is too harsh.

[altobelli]

Its hard to advise on anything other than the points raised by the OP, to do more we'd need to know the specific allegations related to points 1-4, as the disciplinary letter is pretty vague.

 

The alleged 'Breach of Trust' could relate to the initial denials, but this would seem a tad harsh based on the fact that he probably panicked at being hauled into a meeting without any prior warning. But it might also relate to the lost property issue. If the warning relates to the matters outlined by the OP though I would argue that a final written warning is harsh and counter-productive.

[wander27]

Thanks for all the comments on this.

 

However I have decided not to appeal this. I do think it is all wrong and aload of ****.

 

However I have had a death in the family of a family member I was EXTREMLEY close too and this has put a lot of things into perspective for me, in the fact that "do I really care". I am so devastated it is untrue.

 

At the end of the day I have my job and that is what I will do. My job. I can not physically or mental give the company or my mangers any more emotion. If I did I would not be able to grieve properly and would not be in the right frame of mind.

 

Thank you all for your support in this matter, really is appreciated to have so many comments on so many views and aspects. This site is a credit for all who need advice.

 

Thank you.

[Pusillanimous]

Sorry to hear that, Wander. I hope it all goes well, and good luck with the job!

[altobelli]

Wander27, sorry to hear about your loss and in the circumstances I can understand your decision.

 

You have a lot on your plate at the moment, so thanks for taking the time to update us here on your situation.

 

Best of luck to you with everything in the future.