ESA Daughter WRAG

[Laura Cooke]

And whose going to employ someone who constantly needs time off for medical appointments? I know we have the Equalities Act; but being realistic, you're going to need someone (disabled or not) who can work and not need time off all the time.

 

 

So true, none of this was carefully thought out on paper may sound great "Get masses off benefits" but in reality nothing as been carefully planned, how can you when you have no idea what someone sick and disabled is going through or to the extent of their needs, some of these making decisions should have to live in the shoes of these vulnerable people before making stereo types of them and how they can just "pull themselves together" laughed at a comment yesterday from someone who works within DWP they stated that stress is laughed at as a reason for claims for disabled yet DWP workers have numerous time off work down to "stress" seems they have their own rules, same with this constant echoing of fraud which is quite small really in benefit claims, yet let anyone outside benefits get accused/ convicted of it and it`s labelled a "mistake" they certainly have a different rule for their own

[hensteeth]

Strange we been at Mental Health today and I happened to say that my daughter as got a work focused interview on Wednesday, Mental Health team already wrote a letter to ESA and my MP as and my GP and we not heard anything apparently there is a back log, even had a letter from MP Chris Grayling stating job centre had changed appointment to give her a 6 week break assuming that by then ESA would have considered our appeal to go into the support group.

 

My daughters Dr at Mental Health said nothing they write to ESA seems to make any difference and went on to say "The reassuring thing is they cannot send sick people to work" I told him he was mistaken and suggested he read the 100`s of deaths as a result of being made to take part in the work programme or who have been declared fit for work. Looks as if they do as they please DWP strange why so many are letting this happen expected it becoming a human rights issue, especially concerning Mental Health which no consideration is given at all. DWP even expect people to attend these medicals/interviews if they have agraphobia and have not left the house in years. What a flawed and discriminating service, if I was you I would consult with your MP ours as been brilliant he keeps writing without us even asking to all sorts of people we lucky to have such support, hope it bears fruit in the end

 

Spot on!

 

The definition of 'work related activities', whilst it shouldn't but it does, includes having to do voluntary work for 35+ hours a week.

 

Some I know have been made to work just a few hours, others upwards of 16 hours and one in excess of 35 hours a week.

 

It isn't classed as 'training', nor is it classed as 'work experience'. They are told that it is only being carried out to 'broaden their outlook' and make them 'feel as though they are contributing'.

 

I have heard that veiled threats of possible loss of benefit are mentioned if they don't comply with the directive, although I doubt that this would be passed by the DWP.

 

Ironically, at this particular provider, they lump all of the JSA & ESA claimants together and treat them as the same.

[hensteeth]

Not receiving help from CMHT is irrelevant. I've been discharged and basically left to deal with it. Doesn't make my condition any less valid (it's incurable) than anyone who receives help from CMHT.

 

I don't understand that. If you haven't been assessed by your CPN/Social Worker/Psychologist/Psychiatrist as being able to cope with life outside a hospital envoirnment or without the help of a CPN in your home, how can you be discharged?

 

I've been in the system since 1994 and I get a mix of outpatient support as well as in home support.

[Nystagmite]

Because they can't help me. Yes, I can get speech therapy; but that's nothing to do with CMHT.

[reallymadwoman]

I don't understand that. If you haven't been assessed by your CPN/Social Worker/Psychologist/Psychiatrist as being able to cope with life outside a hospital envoirnment or without the help of a CPN in your home, how can you be discharged?

 

I've been in the system since 1994 and I get a mix of outpatient support as well as in home support.

 

There are plenty of people who have been 'discharged' by their CMHT even though they're not 'cured'. Like everyone else, CMHT have limited funds and if they've done all they can there is no point keeping someone on their books.

 

I know two people who both have severe mental health problems that are basically incurable. Both have considerable family support which enables them to manage in the community. A visit from a CPN would be of no benefit to them - one would actually find it detrimental - so they are left alone though of course their carer and/or GP can get extra support from them if needed.

[Laura Cooke]

There are plenty of people who have been 'discharged' by their CMHT even though they're not 'cured'. Like everyone else, CMHT have limited funds and if they've done all they can there is no point keeping someone on their books.

 

I know two people who both have severe mental health problems that are basically incurable. Both have considerable family support which enables them to manage in the community. A visit from a CPN would be of no benefit to them - one would actually find it detrimental - so they are left alone though of course their carer and/or GP can get extra support from them if needed.

 

This is true the Dr at MH said yesterday "She is far off stabilised but when she is she as good family support we will leave her to cope with the family" my son is Schizophrenic he was discharged recently with same excuse though our GP objected he said if my son was to become very unwell it was hard to just get on to MH without still being on the books whereas if they are still on the books they can just contact the crisis team which is good to know that at weekends especially you got someone to turn to

[Laura Cooke]

Get your daughters' GP to write a letter stating that she is too ill to take part and doing so is just going to make her illness even worse.

 

 

Still not heard anything about the ESA appeal to go into the support group daughter been staying with me last couple of weeks, she now seems to be clinging to us 24/7. She had to go for a work focused interview yesterday, it started with "We will take things slowly we have trained counsellors but we won`t be talking to them yet" then as the interview went on she was saying that she would be in touch in 2 weeks hoping by then the Lithium my daughter is on as made a massive difference and that it would not harm to make an appointment to see the counsellor (bit different to what she said at beginning of interview) she wants my daughter to bring in a cv told her my daughter will have no idea where this is as she cannot think straight. She then said no matter how rough she feels a good walk daily would do her good, told her my daughter never leaves the house without support as verified in a letter I took a long from mental health which she casually glanced at.

 

Interviewer said she would consider some charity work for her in the near future "but not right now" my daughter froze at the mention with having to go out and deal with people, I spoke to mental health a few weeks ago and the Dr said "Little what we write to these people seems to be took into account these days but rest assured they would not make people like your daughter go to work" that`s my point you are told you are not forced into work but this place we went to was a glorified job centre you are made to apply for 50 jobs a week!!!! this is outrageous how can the mentally ill cope with this pressure where are 50 jobs? I looked at the paper work I did not let my daughter see it she would freak out, to be put under such pressure the mentally ill could be pushed over the edge the letter said they are expected to go cold calling knocking on doors no way would my daughter ever do this. We might as well have gone to the job centre as this is all this place was they do expect you to find work and instantly it is very untrue that you are not made to apply for jobs. I actually witnessed a girl who looked scared to death being bullied into applying for a job on line that she said she did not wish to apply for the interviewer frog marched her to the computer this disturbed me.

 

I am dreading a call from this interviewer in 2 weeks time my daughter as had counselling in the past and detested it and this interviewer planning to arrange this, the sooner this unfair system is put right the better my daughter cannot think about anything let alone work interviews I am angry that she is being bothered like this.

[reallymadwoman]

I really think you need to speak to the CMHT and your daughter's GP and get them to write a letter including the phrase 'at risk of serious harm' since what your daughter is being asked to do is clearly inappropriate.

 

When you have the letter, then speak to the advisor and tell/show them what is in the letter. If they still don't back down, get your MP involved.

[Laura Cooke]

Will try GP as Mental Health Team wrote a brief letter stating my daughter needs lots of support in the community to function, she is not violent or anything so the danger to herself as not been mentioned , however she is being pushed further into depression which is worse through all this. My MP did get involved he wrote a damning letter to ESA accusing them of not being fit for purpose and we got a response from Chris Grayling MP stating it would be inappropriate to intervene as the case was being looked at. I am so surprised that so many disabled groups etc are not bringing a case against this ruthless government forcing sick people into work

[jackieandwayne]

Laura, like I said before, when your daughter has a complete mental **** fit on these people they will begin to understand. That's what it took to get them off my back - at my very very worst with PTSD I blew up on them like a glass bottle being dropped. They now understand how far they can push me. If they start again and they force me into one of these stupid jobs, then who is responsible when I break down and hit someone out of fear? Interesting. They have been warned.

[Laura Cooke]

Still no date for ESA Appeal to go into the support group. MHT wrote letter to DWP stating that my daughter should be in the support group and that their actions are making it difficult for my daughters condition to be stabilised. My daughter`s GP also wrote and said virtually the same both letters were sent with my daughters 3rd renewal for ESA in September of which we have never heard a thing not even to say that she as still been awarded ESA, these renewals at 3 monthly interviews are a complete waste of money, it is about saving money but how can it be? my daughter as received 2 texts and an appointment to go for another work related interview last week and to forward a CV. How can the mentally ill be put under such pressures when they are clearly not well my GP wrote again to DWP and stated that my daughter was unable to attend any work related interview and that this continous harrasment was deprimental to my daughters health. My MP is also disgusted that no one takes any notice of any letters sent, yet claimants are advised to send supporting letters which DWP then choose to ignore. My MP as wrote to Iain Duncan Smith and basically said to him as he got any idea what effect his regime as on the mentally ill he as told him he wants a full investigation into how my daughters case as been handled and ignored. My daughter did not attend the work related interview and we informed DWP she was not attending, let them dare sanction her when she is too ill to be involved in any of thesen ridiculous schemes. I am surprised this as not become a human rights issue before now.

[Nystagmite]

This case is disgusting. It's clear that your daughter is in no fit state to attend these interviews. How can she be expected to attend? That being said, if I was her, I would go and probably kick off - hopefully ensuring they leave me alone for a bit...

[Laura Cooke]

The first time I took her she was a wreck how can they say they are preparing these poor sick people for work when they dare not travel alone let alone go to a placement etc, then you get a government minister some weeks ago stating that people should supply as much evidence as possible to ensure that DWP as a picture of their illness, condition and how it effects them. Well we have done this several times and not one piece of evidence as even had a response. Even our MP as not got anywhere what a shower this government is. When my daughter last went she sat clutching her handbag up to her chest like a rabbit caught in headlights.

 

This government fed MP`s a load of propaganda and the tabloids to push their reforms through but it is far worse than they have revealed to get these reforms supported, it`s high time some MP`s/Lords with conciences stood up and said enough is enough, had some great letters back from certain Lords who stated they strongly disagree with what is going off but this government keeps moving the goal post to suit, they were not elected in and they do not listen to the electorate how they can keep getting away with such arrogance beggars belief. I have told them should my daughter harm herself I will make sure they listen then!!!!!

[Nystagmite]

I wonder if you could fill in another ESA50 (the form where it asks can you do this, etc) due to a change in circumstance. Might be worth asking about.

 

Does your daughter actually the criteria for the support group? That's all they care about.

[Laura Cooke]

Welfare Rights, MP, GP and MHT all state she is eligible for the support group she cannot cope with the work related group, she had to leave her job last year due to her illness, will wait to see outcome of MP contacting Iain Duncan Smith for a full investigation on how my daughters case as been handled

[Laura Cooke]

Well my MP received reply from DWP over my daughter being in the WRAG group response was "Since her medical in October and the notes from this it gave us no cause to put her in support group" my daughter as never had a medical my MP wrote back to DWP weeks ago how can they respond to that? I have read posts on the internet and she is not alone in this.

 

Anyway this evening my daughter as had a text message she is in bed poorly it is from Ingeus telling her she as an appointment tomorrow this is disgusting texting on a Sunday and despite letters from all the professions in December to DWP stating she not well enough to take part in the Work Related Activities can anyone advise me please what to do about tomorrows appointment

[Nystagmite]

You have to phone up and tell Igneus that your daughter is too ill to come in. I am sure (there is an Igneus thread on here) they have to give you a certain amount of notice.

 

Not everyone will have a medical. The idea of a medical is to gather more information to make a decision.

[nitelite2003]

are the not suppose to give you notice for appointment? just texting i think it not professional at all i would call them up tomorrow asking them why they have sent a text message for an appointment i would argue that these need to be done by letter or phone call and not by text message i mean what happened if the phone is off all day surely they cant assume that just by sending a text message you have to turn up to the appointment

 

i would call the up tell them its not a good time and also request all future appointment are done by either phone call or mail

 

that's what i would do

[Laura Cooke]

You have to phone up and tell Igneus that your daughter is too ill to come in. I am sure (there is an Igneus thread on here) they have to give you a certain amount of notice.

 

Not everyone will have a medical. The idea of a medical is to gather more information to make a decision.

 

 

 

I will be ringing Ingeus yet again as I did in December and told them letters from GP & Mental Health had wrote letters stating my daughter was not well enough to take part in any work related activity. Does not seem like they take any notice of anything seem to be a law to themselves.

 

 

DWP actually said my daughter received a medical and gave the date she not been anywhere to have one so interesting that the report from this medical determined that she should remain in the WRAG group. Waited 8 months now for her ESA appeal. I feel she is being harrassed

[worried33]

You may find after the initial appointment she will be left alone, a few on this site have posted they have had one interview and then been left alone for a year. But if you dont attend that first interview then probably will be harrassed.

 

After my interview in dec I was put on phone interviews but didnt even get a phone call this month.

[speedfreek]

Hang on here can we have a brief synopsis Laura of what actually has been decided and what interviews are you/your daughter actually being asked to attend?

 

Sorry I'm getting confused by the wealth of information - makes a change

 

As you talk about WFI's which can be indefinitely deferred (i.e put off for ever) and then talk about texts for interviews which sound like something that only happens on the Work Program.

 

Have you actually asked for copies of all reports etc done by ATOS/DWP in relation to your daughter?

 

What was her prognosis date? Date ATOS says she'll be ready for work?

 

Have you sent in writing to whoever is asking you to attend these things asking for reasonable adjustments under the Disability Discrimination and Equality acts? You'll have to re-supply medical evidence to back up this request. i.e. permanent deferral, in writing notification only etc

 

Unison has quite a good guide on these acts and how to use them on their website. The site that can't be named also has guides and suggests that the above is what needs to be done.

 

The provider is usually a separate entity to ATOS/DWP and has to be told as well. Once you are asked by a WFI or WP provider to see them you then have to enter a new period of (separate to the benefit decision) negotiation specific to that event.

 

 

 

If Estyllen or Antone are about it sates if you appeal you do not have to attend WFIs does that include appealing WRAG to SG or only applies if is appealing a WCA failure? Sorry I'm confused on this one and my ability to find stuff is still a bit squiffed.

[Laura Cooke]

My daughter had to leave work August 2011 on ill health she was placed in Wrag group. I appealed her being in this group in June 2012 as she as deteriorated she as bipolar and diagnosis of this was only made May 2012. She initially had a couple of appointments at Job Centre Plus I have been with her to all appointments and said she was not well enough sometimes she won`t even leave the house.

 

Job Centre Plus said they could not defer these interviews they had asked their manager to do so.

 

In September 2012 my daughter received a letter to go to Ingeus it left her very distressed they said as she had been given a prognosis of 6 months in December 2011 they would be working towards easing her back into some training etc, they gave her a form to read stating their expectations the woman at Ingeus said it was for future reference what Ingeus expected of her first on list was to "Apply for 50 jobs a day" my daughter freaked out and said she would never go to Ingeus again to me. Just before we left there in September 2012 the woman we saw said she would ring my daughter in a month to see how she was going on with her medication. No one ever rang then in December 2012 my daughter received an appointment to attend Ingeus again telling her to complete a cv and to bring it along with her.

 

My MP wrote to DWP as he as been helping and asked for an explanation as to what they were doing about getting her into the support group and my GP and Mental Health sent letters stating she should be in the support group and that she was not well enough to take part in any work related activities.

 

My MP received a letter stating my daughter had a medical in October 2012 and from that report they had no reason to move her into support, no medical as ever taken place and my MP wrote back asking what was going off we never had a response yet. I rang Ingeus to speak to the woman who my daughter had seen in the September to be told "She left 3 months ago"

 

Last night (Sunday) 6pm my daughter received a text telling her to be at Ingeus today at 4pm.

 

I have rung them this morning they said they would need to speak to my daughter I am going to my daughters shortly, I said to them that I found it odd to receive a text on a Sunday evening to attend today when letters were sent in December to say she is unable to take part in these activities.

[speedfreek]

Thank you that's made things a lot clearer.

 

Ah so she's been mandated onto the Work Program then!

 

This complicates things as you are now fighting on 2 separate fronts

 

1, DWP over ESA Support Group and being mandated on to the work program

2, level of participation required for the Work Program with Ingus

 

1, basically is carry on as you are

2, you have to adopt the mentality that whilst at Ingus the DWP consider her an "Employee" - there's FOI requests stating this fact/view - and Ingus must treat her in the same view that the DWP has i.e. an Employee.

 

This is a separate fight with different rules as you are now covered by Employment and Disability regulation in the workplace. As you're aware this then becomes on conflict/disagreement a matter of opinions i.e. it's your opinion that your daughter is not capable of the things being asked and is support by X evidence and Y regulations and thus Ingus has to legally make adjustments. Ingus will more than likely until pressed sufficiently hard by external forces deny that these adjustments in their opinion are required.

 

In order to fight this you'll have to read up on the DWP guidance to WP providers on ESA claimants and combine that knowledge with how to make requests for adjustments under the DDA and Equality Act 2010.

 

It might also be advisable whilst Legal Aid is still available asking somebody for specific legal advice on the matter and getting your MP to redirect some of his attention to just how unreasonable Ingus are being to see if they have more success by writing to Ingus to get the issues raised at a high enough level in Ingus where common sense exists.

 

Until somebody has a decent legal case and can make the DWP take responsibility for the actions of their agents Ingus - the DWP will always kick the can back to Ingus saying that it's not there problem. Unfortunately this may take a couple of years and your problems are current.

 

On the DWP side have you lodged official complaints about

1, wrongly informing you about theiri ability to defer WFI appointments (this is contrary to their own regulations)

2, manadation on to the WP - their failure in 1 has lead to an improper referral - may be able to argue that your Daughter was not functional enough to understand the reason for nor the requirements of participation (that their regulations require must happen)

 

On the Ingus side.....

1, made official requests in writing for adjustments (as outlines in regs backed by medical evidence.

2, made an official complaint to Ingus about their refusal?

 

You'll need to throughly understand both the DWP and Ingus complaints procedures - as there is a way to get the DWP to accept and manage a complaint against Ingus although they'll try their hardest to squirm out of it unless forced. Also how emplyment law disabiltiy regulation work and are appropriate for use when dealing with WP providers.

 

When I was in better shape I gave some advice to Nysty when they were having the same issues I think the treads are in the Disability section. Unfortunately as you can tell by rablings now and speeling my functionality for the day is gone.

 

If anybody else has an opinion nows the time to jump in as this is a grey area and I could be very very wrong!

 

Other than that good luck

[speedfreek]

If Estyllen or Antone are about it sates if you appeal you do not have to attend WFIs does that include appealing WRAG to SG or only applies if is appealing a WCA failure? Sorry I'm confused on this one and my ability to find stuff is still a bit squiffed.

 

I remember this now it comes From this DWP document http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/work-programme-faqs.pdf

 

Q. When can customers appealing against decisions on ESA be referred to the Work Programme?

 

A. Claimants appealing against their work Capability Assessment (WCA) outcome are exempt from the Work Programme until the appeal outcome is known. The appeal outcome determines their eligibility point for referral to the Work Programme. If, as a result of the appeal they fall within one of the mandatory referral points the customer will be referred at the relevant point based on their prognosis (this could be immediately)

3

 

Sends out the expert signal as this is what's confusing me?

 

Worth a read that document as it has some info on change of circumstances and complaints (although there's guidance that states you can complain via the DWP and the DWP have to mange it)

[estellyn]

had a look speedfreek, but I don't know a lot about the work programme. The answer to the question did not specify which decision you had to be appealling (fit for work or wrag), just that you had to be appealling your wca decision.

 

Laura, does ingeus know your daughter is appealling the wca decision?