Another failure to notify ... Help please

[Nash]

Hi all,

 

Recently had a notification of an alledged failure to notify the DVLA about a change of keeper, ( I did 100% post the relevant section of the V5C )

I send them a letter pleading inocent and was still summoned to court, I prepared a basic defence and attended court on the date given, the DVLA bloke

called me in before the court was in session and tried to talk to me ( apparently he was trying to help me out or so he claimed ) he asked lots of questions and wanted to see the documents

I had taken in for my defence, to which I politely declined.

The man proceded to throw a hissy fit, all toys out of the pram, asked me to leave whilst saying "fine we'll sort it in court"

 

I went back to the waiting area, more people came and went a few of them left completely and rather swiftly, I was then called in again to speak to one of the magistrates, whom

asked if I was still pleading not guilty, to which I replayed "yes not guilty" she then proceded to explain that I was to be found guilty later it would be worse than admitting to it there and then,

as if trying to scare me off maybe?

 

I confirmed that I was still to plead not guilty and she said that in that case I would have to attend another day and to a different court this time, ( still magistrates ) to have a proper trial ??

that is what confused me ... What was the point of me attending in the first place then ??

 

I was also given anunconditional bail form, stating where and when I'm due to attend next.

 

What I am after is advice on weather this is normal or not? Also could use some help putting together a better defence as mine I feel is not very strong

Given the questioning excereted by the DVLA bloke during our first encounter.

 

Help via PM would be great please as the DVLA man made me aware that they read this forum and Legal seagulls, perhaps an attempt to try to put me off?

 

 

 

Many thanks in advance

 

Nash

[pocketstapler]

Yep - Usual procedure.

There should be a duty solicitor in court when you attend - make sure you ask to see him when you book in at court. Representation will be free.

Good luck m8

[Nash]

Thanks for that pal, will keep you posted with my progress

[BankFodder]

Don't be worried about them reading the foru,.

 

If you are honest then there is nothing to hide.

 

DVLA are a huge bureaucracy and very inefficient.

 

It would help you to start gathering evidence of others who have had documents lost by the DVLA.

 

At the end of the day it will be for the DVLA to prove beyond doubt that you didn't comply. That will be difficult for them to do and it will only be if they have a sympathetic disbelieving magistrate that they can win.

Un fortunately I expect that the DVLA are in the habit of being believed.

[Nash]

Don't be worried about them reading the foru,.

 

If you are honest then there is nothing to hide.

 

DVLA are a huge bureaucracy and very inefficient.

 

It would help you to start gathering evidence of others who have had documents lost by the DVLA.

 

At the end of the day it will be for the DVLA to prove beyond doubt that you didn't comply. That will be difficult for them to do and it will only be if they have a sympathetic disbelieving magistrate that they can win.

Un fortunately I expect that the DVLA are in the habit of being believed.

 

Thanks for the advice, I am indeed being 100% honest and have absolutely nothing to hide, I'll start gathering evidence of other cases where the DVLA has lost documents

[Tony P]

Below is a CutnPaste of a post I made on another ongoing almost identical thread. Follow through reading and understanding the threads are linked and you should be suitably armed for them.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Two important threads to read -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk....-Another-case!

 

and the Paul Kennedy case referred to therein -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...dvice-required

 

These have all the legal principles and show the (low) tactics our public servants at DVLA will descend to in trying to obtain money to support their overspending and inefficiency.

 

There are other recent threads where DVLA have backed down or been beaten in Court, such as here -

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...ill-court-date

 

Read them carefully to understand Law and the arguments and come back here with questions - and to tell us how you WON !

 

Take no 5н1т from them !!

[Nash]

Thanks tony I'll have a read

[Nash]

Hi all

Just a quick note to say thanks for all the invaluable advice!

 

I was at court today for trial, fully prepared with all my facts and defence, after waiting and waiting and waiting, wy beyond the time that I should have been in,

I was notified that the prosecutor was no where to be seen, several calls were made to DVLA to no avail, I was called into the court room, my case was being dealt with by a

County judge as he was available, my case was read out, I was complemented on having followed all the steps and having attended every time I had been summoned.

As a result of my prompt attendance and lack of hesitation towards court proceedings, the judge dropped allegations against me, also asked me how much costs I had incurred by attending

court, we agreed on an amount and said costs will be added onto the DVLA's bill.

 

Many thanks for all the support

[afcwben]

Excellent, well done

[Tony P]

That's good to read.

 

Did the Judge get to hear your defence or did you win without it being aired?

 

Interesting if there were other similar cases listed. DVLA usually do them in batches of 50 - 100.

And if so how did the Judge deal with those.

Presumably 'no shows' are found guilty.

 

Enjoy your evening

[Nash]

Hi Tony,

 

I gave a brief description of my defence, on the grounds that if I had been the one to noshow, they would have proceeded in my absence, it was heard, all be it possibly not needed

as the judge was simpathetic to my attending to court in my own time, twice, and that DVLA didn't even have the decency to turn up.

I believe that there was only a couple of us up today, as Reading magistrates deal more with crims and council matters, sadly in most DVLA cases people get bullied into,

pleading guilty and accepting a fine there and then.

I was first in so don't know if the others showed up and or where seen/heard as adjournment was an option too.

[old bill]

Nash,

 

You did well for a court virgin (first time appearance). The conduct of the DVLA official was totally unprofessional and potentially illegal. I hope you brought this pillock's behaviour to the attention of the court. It is unacceptable. It is standard procedure for a court to adjourn a case if the defendant pleads "Not Guilty" at the first hearing. From what you have said, it sounds like you appeared before a District Judge or Deputy District Judge at the adjourned (second) hearing and clearly made a favourable impression which is why the Judge dismissed the case. Well done!

 

Although the matter is now closed, the DVLA official's behaviour needs to be addressed. As well as speaking to your local MP about this, you should write to the following -

 

Simon Tse

Chief Executive

DVLA

Longview Road

Swansea

SA6 7JL

 

Rt Hon Justine Greening MP

Secretary of State for Transport

Great Minster House

33 Horseferry Road

London

SW1P 4DR

 

Justine Greening is, effectively, Simon Tse's boss. The Permanent Secretary at the DfT is Philip Rutnam. Address is same as for Justine Greening.

 

You might also like to draw the attention of the Ministry of Justice to what is going on. Their postal address is -

 

Ministry of Justice

102 Petty France

London

SW1H 9AJ

 

The people you need to write to are -

 

Rt Hon Kenneth Clarke (Lord Chancellor & Secretary of State)

Rt Hon Jonathan Djanogly (Minister of State)[Portfolio includes HMCTS]

[Nash]

Hi Old Bill

 

Thanks for the comments and info, I believe it was indeed a district judge, my case was put to his court room as the one he was booked for got cancelled,

I did indeed mention that is was a total lack of professionalism and at the very least common courtesy on the DVLAs part to not show up or at the very least

notify my self or the court as to why they where not turning up, I also made a point of mentioning the the case would have likely gone ahead and against me

should it have been my self whom didn't show up at court.

 

All this was heard and agreed/sympathised with.

 

I will fire up the relevant letters, thanks again

[old bill]

District Judges and Deputy District Judges in the Magistrates Courts have been practising barristers for at least five years or practising solicitors for at least seven years before being appointed. They are legally-trained. Justices of the Peace are laypersons and have an awful habit of rubber-stamping what the police, local authorities and government departments want. You tend to get better justice from the Judges. That is my personal opinion, as a retired policeman.

 

The DVLA official had absolutely no right whatsoever to ask to see what you intended to use in your defence. This man could well be guilty of Attempting to Pervert the Course of Justice. When you write to Simon Tse, I would be inclined to stress to him that you are pursuing this with your MP, Justine Greening and Kenneth Clarke. It will be interesting to see what his response is like.

[Nash]

Interesting, I was indeed miffed by his request to see my defence docs and was even more surprised when he got offended

when I politely refused by saying " you don't need to see that really, that is my defence which I will be sharing/using during the hearing"

 

His behaviour (DVLA prosecutor) was at the very lest unprofessional and could even be classed as bulling as he used scare tactics to try and make plead guilty for something I was not guilty of.

 

I would like to share some advice with the forum readers here..

 

Guys and Girls ... If you are 100% honest and clear in your mind that you complied as you are required, gather your facts, apply for freedom of information requests and do go to court

to defend your selves, DVLA are sadly a bunch of bullies whom will try scare you with court procedures at every opportunity, they couldn't care less if you got a criminal record

as a result of their shambollic procedures and ways to operate.

[old bill]

Interesting, I was indeed miffed by his request to see my defence docs and was even more surprised when he got offended

when I politely refused by saying " you don't need to see that really, that is my defence which I will be sharing/using during the hearing"

 

His behaviour (DVLA prosecutor) was at the very lest unprofessional and could even be classed as bulling as he used scare tactics to try and make plead guilty for something I was not guilty of.

 

I would like to share some advice with the forum readers here..

 

Guys and Girls ... If you are 100% honest and clear in your mind that you complied as you are required, gather your facts, apply for freedom of information requests and do go to court

to defend your selves, DVLA are sadly a bunch of bullies whom will try scare you with court procedures at every opportunity, they couldn't care less if you got a criminal record

as a result of their shambollic procedures and ways to operate.

 

Nash,

 

Having read this I would urge you to contact Simon Tse soonest and request the name of this person and find out if he is a legal professional, which he most likely is. What he has done amounts to serious professional misconduct and needs to be reported to the appropriate regulatory body as a matter of urgency. Heaven knows how many cases this person has perverted and how many innocent people have been wrongfully convicted. Get the letter off to Simon Tse today. I would recommend you use Special Delivery and mark the envelope PRIVATE & CONFIDENTIAL - TO BE OPENED BY ADDRESSEE ONLY. This will ensure that only Simon Tse can open it. You should also write to Justine Greening, Kenneth Clarke and Jonathan Djanogly today as well. Also email or speak to your local MP. What you have disclosed is serious.

 

Once it is known if this man is a legal professional and what type of legal professional, come back onto this thread and I will guide you towards the appropriate regulatory body.

[Tony P]

I was indeed miffed by his request to see my defence docs and was even more surprised when he got offended

when I politely refused by saying " you don't need to see that really, that is my defence which I will be sharing/using during the hearing"

 

His behaviour (DVLA prosecutor) was at the very lest unprofessional and could even be classed as bulling as he used scare tactics to try and make plead guilty for something I was not guilty of.

 

I too am a bit miffed or mystified - in post 8 the DVLA Prosecutor couldn't be found.

 

If he couldn't be found how did he ask about your defence (a regular thing they do according to other similar threads)?

 

Or did he decide to bugger off when you appeared firm and stood your ground to him?

[old bill]

I too am a bit miffed or mystified - in post 8 the DVLA Prosecutor couldn't be found.

 

If he couldn't be found how did he ask about your defence (a regular thing they do according to other similar threads)?

 

Or did he decide to bugger off when you appeared firm and stood your ground to him?

 

The DVLA Prosecutor was at the first hearing the OP attended, but was nowhere to be found at the adjourned (second) hearing. Like I've said in an earlier post, what this person did was totally unacceptable and against all rules pertaining to evidence and procedure. As such, the prosecution has no right to see details of the defence case, although, the prosecution, MUST provide details of any evidence they have and intend to produce and rely on in court. It sounds to me as if DVLA are resorting to underhand tactics to boost their revenue by perverting extremely dodgy court cases, but doing a DNA (Did Not Appear) when the defendant refuses to reveal details of their defence. This is why I have recommended the OP brings this to the attention of those at the top in the DfT and MoJ, as well as the OP's MP. This needs to be nipped in the bud before it gets out of control.

[Nash]

I too am a bit miffed or mystified - in post 8 the DVLA Prosecutor couldn't be found.

 

If he couldn't be found how did he ask about your defence (a regular thing they do according to other similar threads)?

 

Or did he decide to bugger off when you appeared firm and stood your ground to him?

 

Hi Tony,

 

You seem to be confused, I have been to court twice on the same issue, first time I attended was when I saw the prosecutor/DVLA bloke, I had a defence and a few docs together at that stage,

it was then when DVLA asked to see my docs and I refused, at that same time he tried to convince me into playing guilty and he made me aware of this forum and legal seagulls... (Refer to my first post.) he stated that DVLA reads these forums and that any case won/dismissed/ or otherwise dropped by DVLA was on their own merits and that I pretty much

didn't have a leg to stand on. His actual words to me after i refused to show him my defence were " Fine we will sort this in court "

 

Court was adjourned as I played not guilty and was rescheduled 1month later at Reading, that was a few days ago (see post 8)

and it was then when DVLA never turned up, hope this clarifies the subject .

[Nash]

Thanks old bill

 

You seem to have replied as I was typing .

[Tony P]

Sorry Guys. I hadn't read back to the opening post this time.

 

I recall it now - there are a number of similar cases I am following right now, including a very interesting one at Appeal tomorrow. **

Interesting because, if heard, it will set precedent to lower Courts - but I expect DVLA will bottle it and the defence not get heard and ruled upon to create that precedent.

 

I TOTALLY agree with Old Bill, the tactics and deviousness of DVLA should be stopped and I support any move toward this as actively as I can from here.

 

However, having watched Simon (as it were!) Tse at a House of Commons Transport Committe Meeting I don't think he is the person to stop it.

I get the impression he is as deeply at it, as his minions.

Not a convincing appearance but worth listening through. http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=9473 (Had someone given him a black eye?)

 

Hence involve the BigWigs that Old Bill lists.

 

**EDIT** At the last minute put back a couple of weeks - DVLA not ready yet!

Edited July 19, 2012 by Tony P
See edit

[old bill]

Hi Tony,

 

You seem to be confused, I have been to court twice on the same issue, first time I attended was when I saw the prosecutor/DVLA bloke, I had a defence and a few docs together at that stage,

it was then when DVLA asked to see my docs and I refused, at that same time he tried to convince me into playing guilty and he made me aware of this forum and legal seagulls... (Refer to my first post.) he stated that DVLA reads these forums and that any case won/dismissed/ or otherwise dropped by DVLA was on their own merits and that I pretty much

didn't have a leg to stand on. His actual words to me after i refused to show him my defence were " Fine we will sort this in court "

 

Court was adjourned as I played not guilty and was rescheduled 1month later at Reading, that was a few days ago (see post 8)

and it was then when DVLA never turned up, hope this clarifies the subject .

 

DVLA read posts on CAG and another site named after a certain breed of dog? Perhaps CAG and the other site mentioned should each put up a banner saying, "As read by DVLA". It sounds to me like the DVLA are worried their racketeering is being exposed and they don't like it. So, they're acting like The Krays, trying to pervert cases they know, themselves, they haven't got a cat in hell's chance of winning... and they know it. Get the emails/letters off to the DfT and MoJ, Nash, and expose this. Speak to your MP as well and see what he/she thinks about it. You never know, they might raise a Parliamentary question as a certain MP has about bailiff misconduct on another thread.

[old bill]

Sorry Guys. I hadn't read back to the opening post this time.

 

I recall it now - there are a number of similar cases I am following right now, including a very interesting one at Appeal tomorrow. **

Interesting because, if heard, it will set precedent to lower Courts - but I expect DVLA will bottle it and the defence not get heard and ruled upon to create that precedent.

 

I TOTALLY agree with Old Bill, the tactics and deviousness of DVLA should be stopped and I support any move toward this as actively as I can from here.

 

However, having watched Simon (as it were!) Tse at a House of Commons Transport Committe Meeting I don't think he is the person to stop it.

I get the impression he is as deeply at it, as his minions.

Not a convincing appearance but worth listening through. http://www.parliamentlive.tv/Main/Player.aspx?meetingId=9473 (Had someone given him a black eye?)

 

Hence involve the BigWigs that Old Bill lists.

 

**EDIT** At the last minute put back a couple of weeks - DVLA not ready yet!

 

Simon Tse didn't give a very convincing performance when he appeared on BBC TV's Watchdog programme. Anne Robinson tore him to shreds. He strikes me as a man who is not comfortable doing the job he is doing and he's certainly not used to dealing with the media. He was previously a management consultant focusing on business improvement and prior to that he was Managing Director of Virgin Media.

 

As for "DVLA not ready yet" read "DVLA waiting for super-strength Imodium to arrive at local pharmacy". I think they've finally realised people have twigged what's going on and they're scared of it getting out into the public domain. If it does - and it will - me thinks Simon Tse is going to be looking for another job and so will quite a few other people at DVLA.