Deprivation of capital? Really?

[legalhelpneeded]

Hi

My mother has been told she will not be given housing benefits at the normal rate for her savings because she has been accused of deprivation of capital. It seems to me the council have made a bit of a leap of judgement in accusing her of this, but I wanted to check what others think.

 

To give background, she fell ill suddenly and had to give up work. She was very poorly at first and the doctors didn't know what was wrong, so she decided to leave rented accommodation in a city to go back to her parents in the countryside because she wanted to be somewhere comfortable.

 

She should be having all her council tax and rent paid for her now because she has just over £1,000 left in her account, but they are refusing to provide her with full benefits and insisting she continue paying part of her rent and tax for another six years because of the following expenditure:

 

- Furniture and cooking utensils: She didn't own any furniture when she went back to the countryside and as she was leaving in a hurry, she left things like cooking utensils in the shared house. She stayed with her parents until she was offered a council apartment then when she got there bought the furniture and cooking utensils she needed from auctions and ebay (i.e. cheaper than high street prices).

 

- Clothes: Her medication causes weight gain and she went up two dress sizes, so she have her clothes to a charity shop and replaced her wardrobe - again using eBay so she could get cheaper prices.

 

- Christmas presents: This one we're not sure about. She did buy a Christmas tree and presents for the family and admits this was an emotional decision after a horrible year. I'm not sure how much she spent. The presents were not excessive in any way (one each and not luxuries), but the tree looked quite big!

 

There has also been money lost due to benefit problems:

- She was on ESA at first but failed her first WCA and was then given no help for several months because her local Job Centre wrongly believed that they were not allowed to give her JSA. This was because she had a letter from their doctor stating she wouldn't manage more than 16 hours a week in her current condition and they thought you had to be able to work 40 hours a week to receive benefits. Eventually, this was reassessed and she was given JSA and later ESA when the first WCA decision was repealed. During this time she lost a lot of savings.

 

The council are saying:

- My mother asked them how many savings she would have to fall beneath to receive full rent and tax payments. They are using this as evidence that she planned to deprive herself of capital, although in reality this was just after her benefits had been stopped for a while and she was making sure she was now receiving the right amount.

- The fact she bought things from eBay in large numbers rather than one big spend shows she 'frittered' her money away.

 

My mother cannot afford to pay bills, food, part of her rent and part of her council tax on £1,000 savings and £198 per month benefits for the next six years. Does anyone know if she has a legal case?

 

Thanks!

[MIKEY DABODEE]

how much money have they said she has spent, or deprived herself off?

seems a long time six years to assume notional capital

[Nystagmite]

Does she have any of the receipts?

[legalhelpneeded]

Not sure of the exact amount. Mam estimates that over the course of 8 months she spent:

£6,000 on:

All furniture for an unfurnished flat (including bed, sofa etc...)

Kitchen utensils and equipment

Towels and bedding

 

She spent another £6,000 on:

Rent

Food

Bills

Clothes

Christmas

 

She's not sure on the exact amounts right now and would have to go through her statements and add it up. She estimates that there was around £400 coming in and £700 going out a month though.

 

I should add, she has also paid a subsidised amount on a diploma to retrain for a job she will be able to take with her disability (previously worked in schools and cannot cope with this level of physical activity anymore). I don't think the benefits office have had a problem with this yet because she is deliberately retraining to get back into work and she has received funding and grants from several organisations to help her through the course.

[legalhelpneeded]

Does she have any of the receipts?

 

No, she didn't think to keep them. She has her bank statement which shows where most of the money went though.

[MIKEY DABODEE]

She is allowed to have 6k capital, so they are assuming 6k notional capital then

are they taking £24 per week from her housing benefit,

 

She should appeal this decison if not happy straight away

[legalhelpneeded]

She is allowed to have 6k capital, so they are assuming 6k notional capital then

are they taking £24 per week from her housing benefit,

 

She should appeal this decison if not happy straight away

 

Thanks for your reply. Yes, this is the amount they have taken from her housing benefit.

 

She appealed the decision four months ago but nothing has come of it. Is this normal, do you know? Do you normally need to wait a long time for it to be seen to?

 

Also, when she runs out of money entirely, what will happen?

[MIKEY DABODEE]

Appeals can take ages, she could give them a ring and chase it.

If they have decided that she has 6k notional capital then it would take six years to get rid off, it goes down £1 every three months.

What benefit is she claiming now then ????

[legalhelpneeded]

Appeals can take ages, she could give them a ring and chase it.

If they have decided that she has 6k notional capital then it would take six years to get rid off, it goes down £1 every three months.

What benefit is she claiming now then ????

 

Thank you for your reply. She will chase up about the appeal this week. She is currently on ESA, which I believe is £198 per month, and she is in a work-related activity group.

 

I was wrong earlier to say she was spending £700 with £400 coming in - apparently this is the situation she is in NOW rather than before, which is why she is panicking in case the appeal doesn't come through in time. That £700 goes on bills (which are currently over £300 so we'll have to make sure everything is being calculated correctly), food, her car and the part of rent and council tax she pays. She is also trying to sell as many of her possessions as possible to cover the £300 deficit.

 

I was just wondering also how notional capital is calculated and how she is expected to draw from this fund? Am I right to believe notional capital is your possessions, or is that your assets? Perhaps she has money in a bond somewhere that hasn't matured...I will have to double check this with her...I'm getting quite confused trying to help her sort it out!!!

 

Thank you for your help

[sadone]

it goes down £1 every three months.

 

That seems like a very low figure imo. They say she can't claim for six years, so going by this that must mean £1,00 a year before they say she can claim again. So more like £20 a week maybe?

 

At a rate of £1 every 3 months it would take far longer then 6 years to clear it wouldn't it?

[MIKEY DABODEE]

That seems like a very low figure imo. They say she can't claim for six years, so going by this that must mean £1,00 a year before they say she can claim again. So more like £20 a week maybe?

 

At a rate of £1 every 3 months it would take far longer then 6 years to clear it wouldn't it?

 

no

I say £1 thats the Tariff income figure,

at the moment £24 per week is taking off in three months it becomes £23, 6k capital now in three months £5750 and so down till nothing

[MIKEY DABODEE]

Thank you for your reply. She will chase up about the appeal this week. She is currently on ESA, which I believe is £198 per month, and she is in a work-related activity group.

 

I was wrong earlier to say she was spending £700 with £400 coming in - apparently this is the situation she is in NOW rather than before, which is why she is panicking in case the appeal doesn't come through in time. That £700 goes on bills (which are currently over £300 so we'll have to make sure everything is being calculated correctly), food, her car and the part of rent and council tax she pays. She is also trying to sell as many of her possessions as possible to cover the £300 deficit.

 

I was just wondering also how notional capital is calculated and how she is expected to draw from this fund? Am I right to believe notional capital is your possessions, or is that your assets? Perhaps she has money in a bond somewhere that hasn't matured...I will have to double check this with her...I'm getting quite confused trying to help her sort it out!!!

 

Thank you for your help

 

 

Its hard to explain but notional capital is like pretend capital in a way.

 

Your mother has no capital you say she has spent it twelve thousand there abouts

the council says, even though though she saying she has no capital, she should have.

They say she has spent it to get full housing benefit so,

the first 6k ok this wouldnt have effected the case but the other 6k would have.

 

If she hadnt spent it then she would have been paying £24 a week towards her rent.

So the council are saying in a nutshell she shouldnt have spent it, she just spent it to get benefit, so she will still be classed as having it anyway and they will knock the £24 off per week

they know she hasnt got the money but are assuming it for benefit purposes.

They reduce the tariff income by £1 every three months roughly so in

three months time £23 off and £5750 assumed capital, then it will drop again this will happen every three months roughly untill the figure goes to £0, this will take six years, a £1000 per year.

 

You will only get this removed if you appeal

Is she on ESA IB Now?

 

Doesnt she have any receipts for anything she spent the money on they would sure help her case

Edited June 18, 2012 by MIKEY DABODEE

[legalhelpneeded]

Its hard to explain but notional capital is like pretend capital in a way.

 

Your mother has no capital you say she has spent it twelve thousand there abouts

the council says, even though though she saying she has no capital, she should have.

They say she has spent it to get full housing benefit so,

the first 6k ok this wouldnt have effected the case but the other 6k would have.

 

If she hadnt spent it then she would have been paying £24 a week towards her rent.

So the council are saying in a nutshell she shouldnt have spent it, she just spent it to get benefit, so she will still be classed as having it anyway and they will knock the £24 off per week

they know she hasnt got the money but are assuming it for benefit purposes.

They reduce the tariff income by £1 every three months roughly so in

three months time £23 off and £5750 assumed capital, then it will drop again this will happen every three months roughly untill the figure goes to £0, this will take six years, a £1000 per year.

 

You will only get this removed if you appeal

Is she on ESA IB Now?

 

Doesnt she have any receipts for anything she spent the money on they would sure help her case

 

Ah, I see. That was what was confusing me, all makes sense now. Well I well make sure she chases up the appeal.

 

As for receipts - she thinks she has kept some, and it has just occurred to me PayPal send out receipts so she should have a lot more than she thinks (she thought she didn't get receipts for online purchases for some reason...)

 

If the appeal fails, is there a way for her to get support to help her cover her bills while she pays back this £24 a week? Would she have to take out a loan or something? At the moment she only has £60 left out of her ESA - which to answer your question, she is currently receiving! - per month after rent and council tax with which to pay her bills and buy food and petrol, plus any repairs on the car (which seems to have fallen apart recently), so I think the panic is about her running out before the appeal has been processed, or if the appeal fails.

[MIKEY DABODEE]

I dont think there is anything, try to advise her not to get a loan, there are some sharks out there,

she needs to try to get this decision overturned if she can,

 

ESA are not assuming the capital as well are they?

[Slatted]

Just a thought....you say she used ebay for some of the purchases? Wouldnt they have records of the invoices etc? And if Paypal was used they might have some as well?

[legalhelpneeded]

I dont think there is anything, try to advise her not to get a loan, there are some sharks out there,

she needs to try to get this decision overturned if she can,

 

ESA are not assuming the capital as well are they?

 

Thanks for the advice. I'm sure the appeal will be ok if she keeps chasing it. I'll tell her not to worry for now.

 

ESA have had no problems with the capital, no. I'm pretty sure she is receiving it at the rate she should expect to.

[legalhelpneeded]

Just a thought....you say she used ebay for some of the purchases? Wouldnt they have records of the invoices etc? And if Paypal was used they might have some as well?

 

Thanks, the same thought has only just occurred to me! I'll advise her to look for the invoices and receipts.

 

She is worried she made quite a few emotional purchases though, thinking at the time she would never work again and would need to stock up to last her for the rest of her life (I think she was just upset...) so instead of buying one towel she bought six etc. I'm not sure if the council will understand her logic, as I think she was reacting out of panic, having never been out of work for any prolonged period before. We'll just have to wait and see! It seems an incredibly harsh punishment though for it to last six years!

[Slatted]

It is a medical/psychological fact, I believe, that people react in certain ways when ill and distressed.

 

I would hope that if they believe she was not trying to deplete her capital they would understand the purchase of five more towels for instance!! I am sure at least two would be needed (one in the wash?) and would she not need one for body and one for hair each time...

[Nystagmite]

Thanks for the advice. I'm sure the appeal will be ok if she keeps chasing it. I'll tell her not to worry for now.

 

ESA have had no problems with the capital, no. I'm pretty sure she is receiving it at the rate she should expect to.

 

Basic ESA is £71 per week. The work related component is around £28 / £29 per week and the support group component is around £34 per week.

[legalhelpneeded]

Basic ESA is £71 per week. The work related component is around £28 / £29 per week and the support group component is around £34 per week.

 

Thanks for pointing this out. I've just gone back and asked her as she said £99 per fortnight last time - she MEANT £99 per week so I've got that wrong! Well that's good, that's more than I thought she had!

[MIKEY DABODEE]

It is a medical/psychological fact, I believe, that people react in certain ways when ill and distressed.

 

I would hope that if they believe she was not trying to deplete her capital they would understand the purchase of five more towels for instance!! I am sure at least two would be needed (one in the wash?) and would she not need one for body and one for hair each time...

 

 

Slatted you should be a DM....

It does take a lot to set up a house to be fair.

[thedryad]

Hi just out of interest, did you get this sorted in the end?