IND after a Welcome Finance debt

[INDlover]

Hi everyone,

 

I've been reading a lot of these threads and your advice seems incredibly useful so I thought I'd ask for some help with my case as I have no idea what I'm doing!

 

Six years ago I got a loan with Welcome Finance. I was studying and working part time but was struggling financially with rent and such things.

The loan was for £2500 with £1352.40 of insurance premiums.

 

I used the loan to pay six months of rent but could not afford the direct debit monthly payments of £193 from the very beginning,

in fact I don't think I managed to make a payment ever.

 

The situation in the house I was living in deteriorated and a few months after the loan was issued I moved on.

I gave Welcome my new address details but their letters never followed me and the direct debits stopped shortly afterwards.

 

I heard nothing about this debt for years until last month when I got a phone call out of the blue from a shady character asking to confirm my address

because he had a client who wanted to provide me with a financial service.

I flat out refused to confirm my address and asked to speak directly to the 'client' which I was told was impossible.

 

Two weeks later I go to visit my parents, who I have not lived with in seven or eight years,

and find an IND standard 'LAST LETTER BEFORE LEGAL PROCEEDINGS' waiting for me with no documentation enclosed claiming for over £5000.

 

I did a couple of credit checks and could find no record of the Welcome Finance debt on my history so, perhaps foolishly,

sent off a statute barred letter to IND making sure I stated that I was in no way acknowledging the debt,

just that I believed that debt to be statute barred and asking for all documentation regarding it.

 

My main reason for sending the letter was to inform them that I no longer lived at that address as I didn't want my parents being harassed.

 

I'm visiting my parents again today and IND have once more sent a letter, ignoring my change in address. It goes as follows:

 

Welcome financial Services Ltc -v- Mr XXXXXXX - case no. (no case number)

 

We write in connection with the case detailed above.

 

Please find attached by way of service the following documents:-

1. Statement

2. Original signed agreement

3. Terms and Conditions

 

Should you have any queries please do not hesitate to contact us.

 

Yours sincerely

 

(unsigned)

 

Attached is a very low resolution scan (so low I can barely make out the sums of money) of my original agreement and a list of all action on the account.

 

It seems that I was wrong about the dates and this debt is not statute barred with the last direct debit being returned unpaid at the beginning of 2007.

The loan was placed on 'non-accrual' in March 2008 with interest making the total owed to over £5700.

IND have provided no other documentation regarding the debt.

 

What should I do next?

 

Is there a course of action that I should take?

 

The letter gives no indication as to INDs next move.

 

I checked my credit report just 10 minutes ago and I've not been served with a CCJ, at least not yet.

 

Unfortunately I'm at the other end of the country from the original legal proceedings letter so cannot provide details of that.

 

Thanks for any help you might be able to give me!

[unclebulgaria67]

Here is what I would suggest that you do. Raise a complaint about the mis-selling of the Insurance product connected with the loan. The complaint should be to Welcome, with a copy sent to IND.

 

Nearly £1400 of Insurance premiums connected to a £2500 seems extortionate to me and would make up a large part of the debt. Therefore by entering into a dispute about this Insurance would be sensible to do.

 

Your complaint about the Insurance, is that is was insisted on by Welcome, as a condition of them providing the loan. Which of course is not something they are allowed to do per OFT rulings. Because Welcome have had some problems in the last few years, it is possible that they may not be able to obtain their records of how the Insurance was sold and what was said at the time.

 

Once your complaint has been sent, with a copy to IND, the should put debt collection on hold, as the debt is in dispute. If you were not able to resolve the mis-selling with Welcome, you would of course refer the matter to the FOS and if the complaint is then ongoing, it may not be until sometime in 2013 that it is resolved.

 

IND are not really threatening to take you to court now, but they may do so at some point soon. So it is important that you send your written complaint off by recorded delivery as soon as possible. The letter only needs to be very simple, that you consider the account to be in dispute as the Insurance was mis-sold to you. It was made a condition of the advance of the loan, contrary to OFT rules. You therefore require your complaint regarding this matter to be looked into, as you intend to take this further with the FOS, if they are unable to resolve. When you send a copy of the letter to IND, in the covering letter, just say that you have taken up a formal complaint with Welcome and therefore they must put any collection activity on hold per OFT rules, while the complaint is in progress.

[Andyorch]

Just to add to Unc B,s points the debt is about to or is (if the DD was returned its not a payment) Statute Barred. That puts its back to 2006.Wait until any (if) a summons is issued, keep checking with your parents as you will have to act quickly.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[INDlover]

Hi guys,

 

Thanks a lot for the advice, it is much appreciated.

 

I went away with work and didn't get a chance to put the account in dispute (or even read these replies!).

 

Have now returned home to a County Court claim form issued on the 20th.

 

What are my options now?

 

Am I still able to raise a complaint about the account and if so will that put a hold on the CCJ until the matter is resolved?

 

What are my options in terms of defence?

 

On the Claim Form itself Welcome is listed as the claimant and Hegarty LLP as who to pay,

IND are not mentioned anywhere now.

 

Just had a look at another thread though and this seems to be the norm.

 

Also dispute my sending my original letter with a changed address they are still sending documents to my parents house!

 

Thanks again for any advice you can give me on this matter, I aim to get this sorted as soon as possible.

Edited June 24, 2012 by INDlover

[Andyorch]

Hi

 

You must retrieve that summons and respond to it.You have 33 days in total (5 deemed served) so 28 (14 to Acknowledge service) and if defending then a further 14 days to submit a defence.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[INDlover]

Thanks Andy,

 

I've picked up the claim today and will decide what to do.

 

I'm assuming that it's too late for me to dispute the account?

 

IND did not start sending my documents to my current address even though I informed them of it which has made this process even more frustrating.

 

This is a £2500 loan that is now being asked for at over £6000, which seems ludicrous.

 

I'm not sure if I have any grounds for a defence though, although IND have provided me with very little in the way of readble documentation.

 

As the insurance premium was so high perhaps I can get that knocked off and then set up a repayment plan for the rest?

 

Any advice would be great, I really am not knowledgable in these matters.

 

Thanks!

[ims21]

You need to act on that summons as Andy has said.

 

If it is SB then that is an absolute defence.

 

You need to find out when the last payment was made.

 

If it were me I'd SAR Welcome to get hold of all the data in relation to this loan. Template for SAR is in the CAG library, the link to which is at the top of every CAG page in green.

[Andyorch]

Do the DSAR request to the original creditor and gather all the info on the loan, that may take up to 40 days.You can do a CPR 31.14 request once you have provided the Particulars of Claim for any document referred to. Perhaps a CPR 18 request for anything not mentioned, maybe a breakdown on how they arrive at that figure.If there is miss sold PPI then even consider a counter claim.

 

Andy

[INDlover]

Thanks guys,

 

I'll send the SAR to Welcome

 

but how should I respond on the claim form while I wait for the documents to arrive?

 

What I am able to make out from the low res scan of the account from IND is that the debt would be statute barred in a month

apart from there being a claim for a cash payment which I have no recollection of paying, which would push it back to November.

 

The insurance on the loan was about £1400 which contains PPI.

 

I think perhaps a counter claim for mis sold insurance is in order?

 

I'm happy to pay back the original loan but that seems extortionate.

 

Thanks again.

[INDlover]

Hi guys,

 

So I finally have all of my documentation in one place and need some advice in making a decision. Here is some information as to what I have received so far:

 

First letter - Account statement and 'Last letter before legal proceedings.

IND claim they have contacted me multiple times.

This is a lie.

IND claim the account defaulted on 02/12/2011.

There is no evidence of this or that they have even taken over the account.

 

I send IND a letter asking for full documentation regard the account, as I think it may be statute barred.

I also inform them that they are sending documents to the wrong address.

 

Second letter

- 'Full' documents pertaining to the account.

Sent to the wrong address.

 

I find out that the account is not quite statute barred and that there is £1352.40 of insurance premiums on it, of which £997.40 is PPI.

 

The Welcome Finance statement goes all the way up until 11/05/2012 but there is no default notice on 02/12/2011.

 

The closest thing I can see is a notice 'Place on non-accrual' from 2008.

 

There is no documentation from IND regarding their part in this, just low quality scans of the Welcome Finance paperwork.

 

Third letter

- Claim form. Sent to the wrong address.

The amount being claimed for has now gone up by approximately £250 before court fees and solicitors costs are added on.

 

I think I am going to admit the original loan amount but contest the insurance and interest charges. Does this sound like a sensible idea?

 

EDIT: I did a couple of credit checks and there is no default notice against my name that I can find.

Correction. Have found it now, the default date is from 2007 on my credit report.

Edited June 25, 2012 by INDlover
More information

[Andyorch]

Admit the loan of £2.5 K including with £1352.40 of insurance premiums? Thats a balance of £1147.60 but you need to calculate interest (compound) on that £1352.40 by using the CAG spreadsheet.

That will give you the true Counter Claim figure.Then defend the difference of £2148 (£6K) and request that amount be substantiated.

 

Regards

 

Andy.

 

PS I will get ims21 to take a look at your figures and provide the spreadsheet.

[ims21]

Hi

 

Responding to Andy's alert.

 

You say you have a statement of activity on the account...is that right from the word go?

 

As well as the PPI, are there any other charges on the account for being late with payment, telephone calls, letters or collection activity charges?

 

In respect of the mis-sold PPI, was this a case of "no PPI = no loan" or are there other reasons for the mis-sale that you have already researched? If not, have a look here for the mis-selling reasons.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?61081-PPI-Some-Notes-for-Claimants..(2-Viewing)-nbsp

 

Finally for the moment, can you tell what the other insurances were?

 

Depending on the answers to these points we can point you in the right direction of the correct spreadsheets to use to work out your counter claim.

 

ims

[INDlover]

Thanks for the advice guys,

 

ims21,

the statement of activity on the account does look correct as far as I can see.

There are charges along the life on the account labeled 'interest', 'ad hoc fee' and 'capitalisation'

but they have no more information than that.

 

The 'ad hoc fee' varies in charge from £10.00 to £25.00.

These total £240.00.

I have no idea what the 'capitalisation' fee is, it is charged at £20.00 each time initially but then drops to £0.00 when the account is placed on non-accrual.

 

They don't appear to change the value of the account.

 

There are also a number of notices labeled 'Trf balance from' but they are all £0.00

 

I was under the impression that the insurance was a necessity for accepting the loan,

it was presented to me as so given the risk of lending to me (student, employed part time)

 

The full break down of costs is as follows:

 

Loan: £2500

PPI: £997.40

Personal accident plan: £175

Illegible, begins with 'L' and ends with '24' (the documents I have received are such low quality as to be unreadable in places): £150

Acceptance fee: £75

 

This totals £3897.40 but the initial balance of the account on the statement is £3927.40 I can't see where the extra £30 came from, the document is illegible.

 

Charges on the account:

Ad hoc: £240.00

Interest: £2012.27

 

This totals £2252.27

 

Minus payments on the account I get the value £5756.11, £30 less than the final statement but, as I've said, some of the values are almost illegible.

 

Thank you so much for your time, it's a great help.

[ims21]

Hi

 

OK...just one other thing....you said that you didn't make any payments to the account...is that correct or does the statement show that you made any payments to it?

[INDlover]

Hi,

 

I was incorrect about that, sorry. Looking at the statement closely there are two payments on it, one direct debit from October 2006 and a cash payment from November 2006.

 

Thanks.

[ims21]

OK so the opening transaction on the statement is £3,927.40 and the PPI is £997.40 which makes the PPI 25.40% of the total.

 

What we will do is work out a regulatory based award first to see what impact this has on the balance. We will look at the other charges as a separate exercise later.

 

Take hold of this spreadsheet.

 

StatIntSheet v101.xls

 

Work out what 25.4% of each of the two payments you made comes to and enter the resultant figures into the sheet. You will need to enter the date of the payment, a description and the amount (25.4% of the payments you made). You leave the "claim to" date as today's date.

 

 

This will calculate the 8% statutory interest on those two payments.

 

What figure does the spreadsheet give in the box at the top for a) the total PPI paid and b) the 8% interest.

[Andyorch]

Many thanks ims21

 

INDlover if you act on the above advice and verify the figures this will then enable what appropriate response we will make to the summons.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[INDlover]

Thanks a lot guys.

 

The results are as follows:

 

Monthly PPI payment: £99.96

8% simple interest: £45.38

Total: £145.34

 

What should I do next?

 

Thanks again, I can't say it enough!

[ims21]

Ok so that gives us the interest etc on amounts you have actually paid out.

 

We now need to work out what proportion of the balance on the account is PPI.

 

When we have done this we will have a figure that the regulator would adjust the loan by.

 

Can you let me know the balance on the account at the point they stopped adding interest to it please.

 

When we have done that we will look at the impact of restitutionary interest on the ppi actually paid.

 

Then we can look at the unlawful charges part of it.

 

I have to be off to work shortly but will be back on line at about 8pm

[INDlover]

The balance of the account when Welcome stopped adding interest to it was £5786.11

 

IND/Hegarty have added their own interest of £254.91 bringing the total to £6041.02

 

Thanks a lot!

[INDlover]

I'd also like to point out that the following definitely apply to me in regards to the mis-selling of the PPI, others I'm not so sure about:

 

You were not asked whether you had any other insurance which would cover the loan.

You were not told you could buy PPI elsewhere to cover the loan.

You were told that you would stand more chance of getting the loan if you took the Payment Protection Insurance.

It was not explained to you that there were certain exclusions within the policy that could affect you.

You were pressured into buying the PPI.

The Terms & Conditions of the small print were not fully explained to you.

 

It was basically a case of 'given your circumstances you need to get the PPI to be safe' although on my signed agreement the PPI is listed as optional, not sure if this effects my situation or not.

[ims21]

Hi

 

Ok back now.

 

What I need to do is reconstruct the original loan to find correct balances etc at the point the interest was stopped.

 

From the agreement can you make out the APR of the loan and can you confirm the monthly repayment stated on the agreement? Something in the order of £193 or £196 per month.

 

Also can you let me know the date on which the first payment should have been made.

 

Finally can you let me know the two amounts you paid, the date you made them and the date that they stopped adding interest, i.e. the date of the final balance.

 

Sorry for all the questions but I just want to get this as tight as possible seeing as we are mounting a defence which may need to be talked through to a Judge.

 

Thanks

 

ims

[INDlover]

Hey no worries at all. All help is appreciated! The information is almost impossible to read. This is what I think it says:

 

APR: 53.48%

Monthly repayment: £193.56

The first payment should have been made on: 25/08/2006

First amount I paid: £193.56 on 02/10/2006

Second amount I paid: £200 on 29/11/2006

Date they stopped adding interest: 11/08/2007

 

Thanks ims

[ims21]

Excellent....back in a bit

[INDlover]

Thanks a lot! Should I fill out the claim form or wait until I have the exact amount I wish to contest down? I'm a little worried about missing the date, having the CCJ issued automatically and having bailiffs sent round. The only things I own I need for my studies!