IND after a Welcome Finance debt

[ims21]

Don't worry...we will get this cracked tonight

 

Bear with me

[ims21]

Actually, one thing you could do is use this spreadsheet to work out the figures for the ad-hoc charges of £240.

 

CISheet v101.xls

 

Enter the date of each charge, the description and the amount.

 

Set the "claim to date" to the date they stopped charging interest and in the APR box enter the rate for your agreement.

 

When you've done that can you post up the figures from the spreadsheet please?

[AndyOrch]

Work with ims21 INDlover lets have the true figures, no rush yet to touch the summons, issue date 20th June (33 days 5 deemed served so 28 days 14 to AoS and a further 14 days to submit a defence)

You have 14 days from today to submit your AoS and decide which way to deal with this.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[INDlover]

Hey, thanks for taking an evening out to help!

 

The results of the spreadsheet are:

 

Total charges: £2257.27

Compound interest: £509.06

Total: £2766.33

 

Thanks!

[ims21]

No sorry...not quite right.

 

You said there are £240 ad hoc charges. I think you have entered interest charges n there too. We only need the actual ad hoc charges. Just knock out the interest ones and you should be OK and then let us know the results please.

 

Ta

[INDlover]

Ah sorry, my mistake!

 

Total charges: £240.00

Interest: £69.86

Total: £309.86

 

Thanks

[ims21]

Excellent

 

I'm about half an hour away from getting this sorted.

[INDlover]

Excellent

 

I'm about half an hour away from getting this sorted.

 

Thank you so much!

[ims21]

Ok

 

Here is scenario 1.

 

The balance on the account when they stopped interest was £5,786.11. That includes the charges they put on and the interest they charged on those charges. We have calculated that figure to be £309.86.

 

Deduct one from the other and you get a result of £5,476.25. This would be the balance on the account had the charges not been applied.

 

Now, we have already worked out that PPI was 25.4% of the loan and so 25.4% of that balance after removing the charges would have been the ppi part of the loan. 25.4% of £5,476.25 is £1,390.96 so we can deduct that from the balance. £5,476.25 minus £1,390.96 is £4,085.29.

 

We then want the redress for the PPI actually paid and the 8% on it which we have calculated as £145.34 so we can deduct that as well. £4,085.29 minus £145.34 is £3,939.95. This is some £1,846.16 less than they say.

 

You said that IND have added some charges but that Welcome are the claimant. That would indicate that Welcome are the owners of the debt so we need to establish what the charges are that have been put on after Welcome stopped charging interest. Andy can help you with that using the rules of disclosure of you don't have that information.

 

The other thing that we can consider to increase your counter claim amount is interest in restitution. This would only apply to amounts you have actually paid.

 

I'd like you to do something form me.....on the spreadsheet for your charges, can you change the "claim to" date to today's date and let us know what the figures then come out to.

 

Also, earlier on you entered the PPI payments into the statutory interest sheet. Take hold of a fresh copy of the compound interest sheet and enter into it the same figures that you used in the statutory interest sheet. Change the "claim to" date to today and the interest rate should be set to the rate being charged on the account. Again, let us know the resultant figures.

 

Restitution will take a bit more understanding to argue but lets get the figures and that will then give you an idea as to how to proceed.

[INDlover]

Wow thanks, this is amazing work!

 

In regards to the money added since interest stopped being charged;

 

On the initial letter IND says that if the case goes to court they will charge interest from the default date

(which they say is 02/12/2011) of £219.40 plus £290 court and solicitors fees which they say would bring the final tally up to £6295.51.

 

On the actual claim the total amount is higher, at £6331.02 including court and solicitors fees of £290.

IND aren't mentioned on the claim at all.

 

The claimant is Welcome and payments should be sent to Hegarty LLP.

 

On the front of the claim they say that I am being charged the initial Welcome fee plus 8% a year from 02/12/11 up until 20/06/12

at £254.91 plus interest at the same rate until the day of judgement.

 

This is all the information I have from IND, they say they have been appointed by Welcome but I have no idea where this default date has come from, looking at my credit check the Welcome debt is showing as having defaulted on 02/01/2011 and that I owe over £12577! Is that something to be concerned about?

 

If I change the date on the charges spreadsheet I get the following:

 

Total charges: £240.00

Compound interest: £2263.13

Total: £2503.13

 

If I put the PPI charges in to the charges spreadsheet with todays date I get the following:

 

Total charges: £99.96

Compound interest: £1027.03

Total: £1126.99

 

Hope this helps!

[ims21]

ok let's leave the default amount out of it for now....one step at a time.

 

It is the amount on the claim that you are countering and their S69 interest will not be allowed if you win the case.

 

So scenario 2 is to use the figures for compound interest in restitution.

 

In this case your counter claim figure would be made up of the charges (£240), the compound interest on those (£2,263.13), the PPI payments made (£99.96), the compound interest on those (£1,027.03) and the removal of the PPI form the balance of the loan (£1,390.96).

 

This lot totals to £5,021.08.

 

The principle of restitution is that it applies to money you have actually paid over. Now the normal set off is that when a payment is made, the charges are paid off first so it can be argued that those ad hoc charges were the first things to be paid. Accordingly if it can be shown that those charges are unlawful then so is any interest charged on them. In addition the company has had your money and earned profits on it right up to date. If the charges are unlawful then so are the profits earned on it.

 

Similarly with the PPI.

 

So for this to work in your favour you will have to prove (civil burden on the balance of probability) that the PPI was mis-sold and it looks like the arguments you have above will go a long way towards that. You also have to show that the ad hoc charges are an unlawful penalty and this revolves around them not being a genuine pre-estimate of their costs. This you would need to get them to divulge in court and get them to show that they are indeed a true reflection of the costs.

 

So your choices are to go with scenario 1 above as your counter claim or to use the principles of restitution which give you a potentially higher counter claim but will take more work to present.

 

So really the maths and the basic principles behind them are done and it will now be over to Andy and other legal guys to guide you through the legal aspects of this.

 

I'll stay subscribed to the thread in case more information is needed.

 

ims

[AndyOrch]

Just as an aside INDlover are there any further documents needed on this.

 

Agreement and T&Cs ? Section 77 request

Default Notice.? CPR 31.14

Statements of account all in tact?

 

We can pick up on the summons once you have clarified all your figures with ims21.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Thanks for all that time ims21 spent on the calculations:-D

[ims21]

 

Thanks for all that time ims21 spent on the calculations:-D

 

No worries

 

Brain hurts...off to bed now

[INDlover]

Wow ims, thank you so much for all your effort.

I really can't thank you enough!

I am unsure which option to take, I'm not sure I want to risk losing.

 

Does the second option mean a higher chance of the court saying no and hitting me for the full amount?

 

I have calculated all these figures based on the last time interest was added to the account.

 

There is however a note on the account from 17/12/2010 saying 'INTEREST RATE CHANGE 00.0000'.

 

Just wanted to make sure I shouldn't have been calculating to that date? if so I can do all calculations again and repost.

 

Andy,

 

I have a copy of the agreement and T&C for the Welcome loan that IND/Hagerty have sent me but they are such low quality that they are illegible in large parts.

 

I would really like a readable version.

 

I have received no default notice, only IND/Hagerty claiming a date in their letter and on the claim which I cannot find anywhere else.

 

I have the statement for the Welcome account passed on to me by IND/Hagerty that goes up to 11/05/2012.

 

IND/Hagerty have sent me their own statement with just one item detailing the full balance of the Welcome loan and their default date of 02/12/2011.

 

I have not received any statement regarding the charges they have added since.

 

Hope this helps and thanks again!

[ims21]

Well there are no certainties with court action and my advice would be prepare, prepare and prepare again to give yourself the strongest chance.

 

Andy will confirm but I wonder if there is the possibility of putting in a claim for restitution but saying something along the lines of if the court is not minded to award restitution then you claim the lower amount. Not sure on that.

[AndyOrch]

Morning INDlover

 

Can you make out from the agreement and T&C what the interest rate was, I find it staggering a £2.5 loan can grow to over £6K. (or even 12K as per your CRA,s)

 

Andy

[ims21]

Hi Andy

 

Post #23 says 53.48% APR

[AndyOrch]

Hi Andy

 

Post #23 says 53.48% APR

 

Thanks ims i will just go for a lie down in a dark room:madgrin:

[INDlover]

Yeah it's 53.48% as I can best make out. They really saw me coming!

[AndyOrch]

Ok can you now type out the particulars of claim (verbatim) less any identifiable data.

 

Andy

[INDlover]

Here you go Andy:

 

The Claimant claims for sums due under a/various Credit Agreement(s) related only to money regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974

entered into between the Claimant and the Defendant.

 

The agreement(s) was/were terminated upon the Defendant failure to comply with the terms of the Agreement(s).

 

The Claimant complied with Section III and IV and Annex B of the PD Pre-Action Conduct.

 

And the Claimant Claims:

Personal Loan Account number XXXXXXX balance of 5,786.11 as of 2/12/11.

Interest under s69 of the County Court Act 1984 at the rate of 8% a year from 2/12/11 to 20/6/12 of 254.91

and also interest at the same rate up to the date of judgment or earlier payment at a daily rate of 1.27 AND Costs.

 

Hope that's useful

Edited June 26, 2012 by INDlover

[AndyOrch]

Claimant is IND or Welcome?

[INDlover]

Claimant is IND or Welcome?

 

Claimant is listed as Welcome, IND is not mentioned on the claim but Hegarty are listed as who to pay to.

[AndyOrch]

Ok INDlover

 

Thats fine I will get back to you later if in the meantime you post the figures we are now working with.

 

Summons amount £ 5,786.11

 

Counter Claim £

 

Regards

 

Andy

[INDlover]

Here you go Andy,

 

Summons Amount: £5786.11

Amount Claimed (including IND interest): £6041.02

 

Counter Claim: £5021.08

 

Do you think it's wise to go for the restitution option? If I lose what happens in regards to the CCJ? I get stuck with the whole amount and have to pay it back within a month? Although it is obviously an enticing prospect to get so much of the debt written off I don't want to be greedy at the expense of security in regards to the defence.

 

Thanks!