Unfair, Wrongful or Constructive dismissal?

[lindyhop]

Hi Becky, the employee concerned goes on leave in January sometime. i can make discreet enquires to find out the date if that will make any difference.

 

Thanks

[lindyhop]

Hi again, sorry i forgot - may not make any difference anyway

 

for the purposes of the CMD i was just listed as the claimant and employers as respondent, so i dont know who is respondent 1 at the moment.

 

thanks

[lindyhop]

Hi Caggers

 

is there such a thing as a time limit for submitting a grievance at work? what is deemed a reasonable length of time before submitting the grievance if there are mitigating circumstances?

 

i have been advised by my employer that because the formal complaints i want to raise are outside of a 3 month period they dont have to do anything with it or investigate it!

 

i thought the 3 month time limit only applied to ET?

 

can someone advise please?

 

Thanks

[Sidewinder]

Any time limit applies only to lodging a claim with a Tribunal!

 

The whole point about a grievance is that it is the means by which an employee expresses dissatisfaction with either the employer, a colleague, or a situation at work. This may be a situation which is so serious that the employee feels it necessary to lodge a grievance immediately, or there may be cumulative causes, and after a period of time the employee believes that the situation has become so unsettling that they choose to lodge a grievance. Consequently the answer to your question is that 'No' there is no time in which a grievance should be submitted, as this depends on the circumstances and whether they relate to a single act which causes distress, or whether there have been several incidents, the latest of which might be the straw that breaks the camel's back.

 

What you do have to bear in mind is that if it is the former, and the grievance relates to a single act, then it would not really be reasonable to wait ages before acting, since the aim of a grievance is to give the employer an opportunity to remedy whatever situation is causing the problem, and the ability to effectively investigate and deal with a problem might be reduced as time progresses.

 

Of course there may be a policy at work which states that grievances must be lodged within a set period, but once again this comes back to the nature of the problem.

[Pusillanimous]

ACAS advises that grievances and disciplinary actions should be as prompt as possible. However, there is nothing in law to stop an employee or employer bringing such an action a long time after the event.

[altobelli]

What is the reason you're looking to raise a grievance now? Is it the culmination of a series of events or is it something which has just come to light?

 

You can raise a grievance at any time, but you may be asked why you didn't raise one earlier if a long period of time has elapsed since the event took place. It isn't true that the employer doesn't have to investigate though.

 

If it related to something such as office 'banter' which you accepted and participated in at the time, but then later fell out with someone and raised a grievance based on what was accepted in the past, this may not be looked upon favourably.

[lindyhop]

Thanks for the responses and advice.

 

basically - i raised my first grievance, following my first period of sick leave which was work related. the grievance wasnt upheld - the appeal was partially upheld, but i have never been forgiven for it and as a consequence have suffered some severe incidents of victimisation - not just from management - ever since which has resulted in my being ill again

 

so it is a culmination of events. i then raised complaints about some of the new events, but didnt state on my complaint the term 'grievance' - so it wasnt dealt with as a grievance, however i was not happy with the outcome of how these complaints were dealt with, (this is recorded), but i was advised by someone at work that i should not pursue additional grievances at that time as i already had 2 outstanding and 2 appeals, my health was still poor and my raising further grievances could jepodise my outstanding ones.

 

i wish i knew then what i know now - they were never going to uphold my complaints, and it was only because the chair of my original grievance didnt know the law that i got a partially upheld through on one.

 

i wanted to formalise my complaints which were not termed 'grievances' so wrote expressing this, but my employers

have instead told me that they dont want me back and will be taking the incapabilities route! to add insult to injury this is after i wrote and told them there was a possibility of my returning shortly from my sick leave, and showing a committment to this by making a request for reasonable adjustments for my return.

 

why would i consider working for such an organisation? i love my job, it is going to be really difficult for me now and at my age to get another one like it, especially with my sickness record. i trusted HR when they told me they would help me and were concerned for my welfare - what a way to learn the lesson of this untruth.

 

Regards

[Lilythepink]

I have raised a grievance which takes in 6 years of bullying and harrassment against three managers. I put down 12 incidents, out of many which I could put down but they only wanted to investigate three, as they said there was no tangible evidence. I have been off with workplace stress, for 9 months, am slightly better, and have been offered a transfer, but my union has been able to produce and can produce emails etc to support the other grievances. So I have asked my dept to look at these again, as I have tangilbe evidence, and if it goes to court, the judge rules on a balance of probabilities, in other words if the judge believes enough of the grievances, on balance, he will take into account all of the others. I would like toknow is there a time limit on your company allowed to investigate, as someone told they draw it out on the hope you will go away......

[lindyhop]

Hi Lilly

 

i have read through my employers complaint/grievance policy and the only times specified are those for responses to complaints ie you complaint to HR and they have 5 days to answer and let you know what is going to happen next. you are not happy with the outcome of a grievance you have 10 days to lodge an appeal. once appeal is lodged the employer has 14 days to answer etc.

 

no where in the document (which is apparently in line with the ACAS guidelines) does it state that there is a time limit for submitting a complaint or grievance - which is why i was astonished to be told by employers that its too old and there are just over 3 months, but under a year!

 

Regards

[Lilythepink]

the employment tribunal is wthin 3 months, but all businesses, have an internal process, that you have to exhaust first. I was too ill to lodge mine within that time, so I just put the grievance in June, but I only got a notice to go for an interview to give evidence, and was astonished to see that they had only taken three into account. I might end up in the industrial tribunal, which I don't think has any time limits, although I suppose it would need to be reasonable. I just wonder why they have taken so long, and interviewed nobody yet. 'going to keep pestering them though, that is the only way, I am not going away.

[lindyhop]

Hi Caggers

 

if a questionnaire has been submitted and responded to, but the response has raised addtional questions, at what point can you approach your employer to raise the new/additonal questions?

 

in this instance the ET1 has not yet been submitted.

 

Regards

[lindyhop]

Hi

 

im not sure that im in the right thread as this covers employment, but i did try freedom of information first, unsuccessfully. there is however a link.

 

i put in a freedom of information request to my employers, i did not address them as my employers but as a member of the public, but their response was that they were not going to answer/respond because they view it as vexatious becasue i have an ongoing discrimination claim.

 

basically can they refuse to provide me with the information?

 

Regards

 

if im in the wrong thread, i would appreciate a site member helping to put me right.

[honeybee13]

Hi

 

im not sure that im in the right thread as this covers employment, but i did try freedom of information first, unsuccessfully. there is however a link.

 

i put in a freedom of information request to my employers, i did not address them as my employers but as a member of the public, but their response was that they were not going to answer/respond because they view it as vexatious becasue i have an ongoing discrimination claim.

 

basically can they refuse to provide me with the information?

 

Regards

 

if im in the wrong thread, i would appreciate a site member helping to put me right.

 

Hello again lindy. Do you mean are you on the right forum rather than the right thread please? If you mean forum, I think this one will do for now.

 

I believe FOI requests are usually for public bodies, please can you remind us if that is who you worked for?

 

My best, HB

[Emmzzi]

Depends what you wanted to know

 

Will I always get the information I ask for?

 

Not always. The Freedom of Information Act recognises that there will be valid reasons why some kinds of information may be withheld, such as if its release would prejudice national security or damage commercial interests. For some exemptions the public authority must consider whether the public interest in withholding the information outweighs the public interest in releasing it. If it decides that the information cannot be released it must tell you and explain why. Public authorities are not obliged to deal with vexatious or repeated requests or in some cases if the cost exceeds an appropriate limit. In addition the Act does not provide the right of access to personal information about yourself. This is instead available under the Data Protection Act again, subject to certain exemptions, and is known as a subject access request.

 

http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_the_public/official_information/how_access.aspx

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act 1998 require the company to provide all data they hold on you.

 

There is a £10 statutory fee payable and the company have 40 days to reply, there is a template in the CAG library you can amend to suit.

[Sidewinder]

Agreed - as stated a FOI request can only be made to a public body, a SAR is a request to provide information relating to yourself, but there are exceptions and conditions, so it depends what you need to know.

[lindyhop]

Hi

 

i have submitted my list of issues to the ET and Respondent, but completely missed the fact that is should have provided comparators.

 

is it too late to add this?

 

how do i go about it? ask for my list of issues to be amended by the ET to include comparators?

 

i am currently at the stage for disclosure - and have only just received the draft list of issues from the respondents which need to be agreed.

 

additionally at what stage can i ask the respondent to transcribe the recording of a meeting which contains some vital evidence supporting my claim. the respondents are already reluctant to provide some info which they feel would be adverse to them.

 

its all a nightmare and so exhausting - it really is a wearing down process and even more difficult if you are self represented (personally speaking of course)

 

Thanks

[Pusillanimous]

You are entitled to have the tape recording, but they are not obliged to transcribe it for you. It is not expensvie to hire someone to transcribe it for you (see google). If short you can do it yourself.

 

I assume you would have mentioned comparators in your original pleadings? If so, nothing to worry about. If you are worried, simply send the ET and other party a supplement with the information.

[lindyhop]

Hi

 

please advise if any additions should be included when considering settlements

 

£XXX to include full and final settlement of all claims, including injury to feelings, personal injury, mutual termination of employment, notice and outstanding annual leave

 

An agreed reference (we would expect this to be a full and positive reference – one just detailing basic information will not be acceptable).

 

We expect this settlement to be made through ACAS under a COT3 agreement.

 

does this sound about right?

 

Regards

[lindyhop]

Help!!

 

OK, so im worried sick now. have agreed on a settlement amount, and my employers are at break neck speed to get the matter finalised - what's wrong? why all of a sudden is there such a great hurry?

 

something must be missed from my above list of inclusions (which i cadged from someone else). can someone please advise on what it is that maybe missing - i cant afford to be caught short.

 

Regards

[Emmzzi]

lindy, they probably don't want to give you time to change your mind is all. Are you happy with the amount?

[lindyhop]

my case is frighteningly quickly coming to an end, and im not sure how i feel about it. those of you that have been following Sweet Lorraines thread may have read my input a few weeks ago, and how unfortunate and painful (for me too) her own case concluded. SL's case had a dramatic affect on what i did next -already waning through physical exhaustion from it all and the mental anguish involved, i decided to start letting go of the fight. i was originally determined that i wanted to be heard in court, i wanted my employers to answer publically for the injustices they had put me through, but it was harder than i imagined to get the representation i needed without forking out pots of money which i didnt have.

 

its been a learning curve.

1. its near impossible to try and do this on your own even if your case is very straightforward - you need support

dont hide from shame what is happening to you

2. involve whatever agencies or charties you can that your circumstances may be linked to, they may be able to advocate on your behalf ie Mind

3. there are pro bono agencies out there that dependant on your case may take it on (even if you are working and own your own property) ie 'Lawworks' or FRU ( with FRU you have to be referred by an agency ie CAB) alternatively try contacting your local uni - do they have final year law students looking for a bit of experience?

4. if you have been in a Union, but have left because your employment ended or income reduce due to sickness and you could no longer afford the subs (or even if you have never been part of a Union) there are unemployed workers community centres which may have a worker that can advocate or advise on your case.

5. do a chronology and keep it updated - i cant stress the importance of this as i found out to my cost at my CMD

6. if self represented, make up the file for your case from early on - it can be overwhelming and take absolute hours trying to sort out all the paperwork later on

7.double check if your case comes under more than one of the equality acts prior to submitting your ET1 -it is easier to do at this stage than to apply to amend the original claim later on - the ET judge may question why the delay, and your employers solicitor will definately be raising the fact that you should have included the issue on the original ET1.

8. make sure you lodge grievances - dont be fobbed off, make it plain to your employer that you want to initiate the grievance procedure and the matter is not just a complaint - you will be penalised by the ET if you fail to exhaust your employers internal procedure prior to bringing the matter to the ET.

9. employers have their own agenda, and their solicitors are there to try and trip you up - they are not trying to help you

10. if self represented, take someone with you to the pre hearings . you will need support during and afterward should the pre hearing be going badly

11. if a CMD is demoted to a PHR remember that you can appeal - you have 42 days from the date of the ET order to lodge the appeal. You have to be able to demonstrate however that there has been some form of err in law by the ET judge. research save 'Baili' as part of you favourites on your toolbar

12. research, use this site to ask questions, let off a little steam and importantly share your own experiences, Tamara Lewes book is a good starting point and worth the money if you cannot obtain it from a library. also sign up for alerts

13. dont be totally dependant on unions to help you with your case. sometimes even stewards have thier own agenda and may not have your best interest as a priority - they may have the type of relationship with the employer to try and dampen things down and not muddy the waters. stewards may be new and not familliar with how things should work or even unclear or uncomfortable, or just too busy with their job to deal with the discrimination or complaint that you are experiencing properly - do your own research or get a third party to help with research. regional officers and union solicitors priority may be the value of the case only, and if they are not guaranteed a win will not take on your case, no matter how badly you have been done by.

14. attend as many ET hearings as an observer as you can to get the feel of the judges, their decisions, the cases, and how things generally work. i wish i had done this - it is a shame that CMD's are closed hearings however pre hearings are not

15. ET court paperwork is not a doddle, listing the issues, establishing comparators, even filling in a CMD agenda as a lay person needs guidance. employers solicitors may either withhold documents, try and impose their own time limits on you, use delay tactics or or try to overload you in the hope that you will miss something important to your case.

16. it is really important to keep to the orders/timings set by the ET court - dont be the one in the wrong complain to the court if the otherside is wrong footing - cover your back

17. it may sound defeatest but, think carefully before making a complaint/raising a grievance, would it be easier to just leave and find another job? - in my own case the person that started all my problems got promoted - they wanted my job for themselves and got the opportunity to get my job once i was signed off work long term on secondment, to my disgust and even with supporting evidence from others of this persons behaviour, my employers have kept this person in post, and i am the one who has lost their job, been made so ill i am now deemed disabled and acquired an horrendous sick record to boot!

18. letting go is not easy it really isnt. if anyone tries to tell you any different its BS! if anyone tries to tell you that letting go will make you feel better - it may well do, but in your own time not theirs - everyone is different and recovers at different rates. there are so many obstacles and hurdles to jump taking on this type of thing it really is a mamouth task - try not to beat yourself up about it if you decide not to go all the way, only you know how much you can take. you are not a failure.

19 if you can, start getting out into the community to help take your mind off the situation for a couple of hours, join a club ie cookery class, gardening club, walking group, do volunteering with the park rangers in your area - get out there mixing with nice, normal people. your view of people can be warped if you are only having contact

with the employer that resents your existence, their solicitors who are setting man traps for you and your work colleague(s) responsible for making your work life hell on earth.

20. if on prescription meds make sure you take them - by God you will need them.

 

Site Team - i need your help yet again, can someone help with putting my employment bits on this thread. all i can say in my defence is that sometimes to achieve a response, i have had to use a new 'title' to draw attention to my query, which i am not aware can be done within the original thread. i promise that i do aspire to be a good caggie for this site and will be making a donation (once i have some money - if my employers and their solicitors dont shaft me) to show my appreciation.

Regards

[lindyhop]

Hi Emmzzi

 

thank you for responding. i have no trust at all where my employers are concerned and unfortunately this manifests itself by my viewing all of their activities with suspicion.

 

am i happy with the offer? No, but only because it was never about the money, my heart is breaking over the loss of what was my life prior to all this, no amount of money can make it right and its now more than ever that this has been brough home to me -i have been offered a settlement, but it hasnt helped me feel better.

 

letting go and moving on is what is needed - but im not in the right place for this right now - im still fighting my way out of self pity:-(

 

Regards

[Emmzzi]

So that is a hard one to offer advice on. Would you feel better if you went through with the hearing? Do you NEED the money?

[Pusillanimous]

Did you tell ACAS you agreed? If so, they might hold you to it, anyway.