Employment Tribunal ..Case Managment ...Whistle blowing

[stewpots]

I made a protected disclosure and was dismissed with 2 others in August, spent £3,000 on solicitors but run out of money

 

I have a CMD next week (their solicitor only just responded in time on 18th Nov) so its come around quickly.

 

This company is household name in financial sector

 

I have to go on my own

 

re CMD I assume I have to tell what witnesses I am going to rely on, can I ask for the two that dismissed me to attend full tribunal. These people are well known in their sector

 

I have loads of buddles (previous solictor) but thats not looked at here ?

 

I have talked to ACAS they don't seem to know much.

[Marieleeza]

I don't know how to start a new thread but need help

 

I made a protected disclosure and was dismissed with 2 others in August, spent £3,000 on solicitors but run out of money

 

I have a CMD next week (their solicitor only just responded in time on 18th Nov) so its come around quickly.

 

This company is household name in financial sector

 

I have to go on my own

 

re CMD I assume I have to tell what witnesses I am going to rely on, can I ask for the two that dismissed me to attend full tribunal. These people are well known in their sector

 

I have loads of buddles (previous solictor) but thats not looked at here ?

 

I have talked to ACAS they don't seem to know much.

 

There is a checklist for CMD that some Tribunals use for CMD. If the one you are going to does not use it it is still good as a guideline.

 

Here is the link.

 

http://etclaims.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/CMD-Agenda-Word.doc

 

As I recall, it is important to be aware of any dates that you or your witnesses cannot attend as the date for the ET hearing will be set at this CMD and it is hard to get it altered once it has been scheduled.

 

A date will be set for exchange of witness statements. It could be a long way away.

 

I was prepared to inform the Respondent about my witnesses but I was not asked to. You can ask the judge to make orders for the two people you want to attend but the Respondent may be calling them anyway. It would be better if the Respondent called them rather than your compelling them to come because they would have to produce a witness statement in advance of the hearing and you will be able to prepare your cross examination.

 

Issues about the timing of the complaint, if there are any, can be discussed at CMD.

 

Also, if you need to amend your claim in any way, you can ask the judge for permission to do that.

 

The judge will make decisions and issue orders about who will complile the bundle, when medical evidence shall be disclosed, when all documents should be disclosed, when witness statements need to be submitted etc.

 

The judge may also suggest Judicial Mediation, if it is appropriate, usually if it is not a big money claim.

 

You could perhaps get some legal advice from legal aid, if you can satisfy the means test, about what to say at CMD. I got some brief advice from them by phone and it was really good.

 

That is all I can remember about CMD. It only takes an hour and while a lawyer is desirable, if you stay calm and poised, I am sure that you will be able to handle it.

 

Good Luck

[stewpots]

There is a checklist for CMD that some Tribunals use for CMD. If the one you are going to does not use it it is still good as a guideline.

 

Here is the link.

 

http://etclaims.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/CMD-Agenda-Word.doc

 

As I recall, it is important to be aware of any dates that you or your witnesses cannot attend as the date for the ET hearing will be set at this CMD and it is hard to get it altered once it has been scheduled.

 

A date will be set for exchange of witness statements. It could be a long way away.

 

I was prepared to inform the Respondent about my witnesses but I was not asked to. You can ask the judge to make orders for the two people you want to attend but the Respondent may be calling them anyway. It would be better if the Respondent called them rather than your compelling them to come because they would have to produce a witness statement in advance of the hearing and you will be able to prepare your cross examination.

 

Issues about the timing of the complaint, if there are any, can be discussed at CMD.

 

Also, if you need to amend your claim in any way, you can ask the judge for permission to do that.

 

The judge will make decisions and issue orders about who will complile the bundle, when medical evidence shall be disclosed, when all documents should be disclosed, when witness statements need to be submitted etc.

 

The judge may also suggest Judicial Mediation, if it is appropriate, usually if it is not a big money claim.

 

You could perhaps get some legal advice from legal aid, if you can satisfy the means test, about what to say at CMD. I got some brief advice from them by phone and it was really good.

 

That is all I can remember about CMD. It only takes an hour and while a lawyer is desirable, if you stay calm and poised, I am sure that you will be able to handle it.

 

Good Luck

 

Thanks for quick reply am really stress with it

 

I ran out of money re lawyer but have pages of docs e-mails etc etc their solictor use to respond to 2 points of the 14 mine raise etc etc

 

2 whistle blowing disclosures re price fixing improprity etc I had only been there 5 months. dismissed on spot with 3 others that raised similar issues.

 

I really want those two attend as there 'house hold names' in the financial world and I would like to cross examine them

 

I assume their solictor (this company makes billions you see on TV etc) could state they just want to use witness statments for them, I assume i can ask for their attendence.

 

FSA have been involved etc. Re big money claim I want over £100,000

 

They already have one swarn witness statment but that guy happy to attend another not so she still works there, i know I could force here but dont want to

 

I have told ACAS what I want for pre hearing settlement . does this come up ? Company suggested pre hearing settlement but not in time for this.

 

Are decisions made public if i contacted trade press (in this sector) would that be seen as nasty evil etc

Edited December 8, 2011 by stewpots

[stewpots]

Hi OP

 

Sorry to hear of your predicament. Costs are very rarely awarded and I am shocked that such high costs were awarded even for a misconceived claim.

 

Can you post a bit more background so I can try to help?

 

 

Apologies, I think you mis understand.

 

The CMD is next tuesday, the attached document above has helped. I told ACAS I want £100,000 to settle out of court (about 1 yrs pay) my earnings are half what I was on.

 

I obviously feel I can win the case but don't fancy facing 4 of their solictors at full tribunal so wanted a pre settlement and told ACAS above.

 

Their solicitor already has a buddle of 35 e-mails docs etc from my solicitor who i can no longer afford.

 

I have a witness what was said in a meeting and lots of stuff, the main point for me is getting the two people who dismissed the team of 3 to attend tribunal. My witness provided sworn statement.

 

The FSA involved I was threaten (via e-mail) with police action if I didn't return lap top lots of 'stuff'

 

These guys are responsible for £400m + budgets , I would want to cross examine I assume i can ask judge on Tuesday ? I don't think the company would want them there

 

Are ET public posted etc

[stewpots]

Have started a new thread (sorry mods). Have had a lot of assistance already

 

I made a protected disclosure and was

dismissed

with 2 others in August, spent £3,000 on solicitors but run out of money

 

I have a CMD next week (their solicitor only just responded in time on 18th Nov) so its come around quickly.

 

This company is household name in financial sector

 

I have to go on my own

 

re CMD I assume I have to tell what witnesses I am going to rely on, can I ask for the two that dismissed me to attend full tribunal. These people are well known in their sector

 

I have loads of buddles (previous solictor) but thats not looked at here ?

 

I have talked to ACAS they don't seem to know much.

 

[stewpots]

Do I ask for specfic information from respondent at CMD. I would like a copy of some papers and copy of a diary entry etc

[Marieleeza]

Do I ask for specfic information from respondent at CMD. I would like a copy of some papers and copy of a diary entry etc

 

You can email and request it now and then follow it up at the CMD. You can put a time limit on your request and say that you will ask the Tribunal to make an order for its disclosure, if you have not received the info by such and such a date.

 

At the CMD, if it is still outstanding, you can tell the judge that you have requested it and find out if there is any problem with producing it. The other side will have to answer and then you will know if they are going to disclose it voluntarily or not.

[madari]

Protected disclosure????

 

Google: NHS Manchester v Fecitt & others EWCA CiV1190 [2011] for case law of a long running case involving whistle blowing

This case went to the court of appeal this year.

 

Unless the whistleblowing has something to do with discrimination then it will be very difficult to succeed.

 

Good luck

[stewpots]

The CMD is tuesday i will ask for extra info then. If I cant I assume I will ask for it outside of the CMD. I cant e-mail defendent they just want to talk through tribunal at the moment.

[stewpots]

Protected disclosure????

 

Google: NHS Manchester v Fecitt & others EWCA CiV1190 [2011] for case law of a long running case involving whistle blowing

This case went to the court of appeal this year.

 

Unless the whistleblowing has something to do with discrimination then it will be very difficult to succeed.

 

Good luck

 

Whistle Blowing has nothing to do with discrimination but linked to that case it would make it easier. Being sacked is a good test for a detriment

 

Its price fixing/collusion impropriety. That went on e-mail evidence FSA involved . They say they got rid of 3 of us all on the same day over poor performance not because we raise issues under protected diclosure. A big broker was fined £9m for price fixing

Edited December 9, 2011 by stewpots

[stewpots]

You can email and request it now and then follow it up at the CMD. You can put a time limit on your request and say that you will ask the Tribunal to make an order for its disclosure, if you have not received the info by such and such a date.

 

At the CMD, if it is still outstanding, you can tell the judge that you have requested it and find out if there is any problem with producing it. The other side will have to answer and then you will know if they are going to disclose it voluntarily or not.

 

I have had no contact with their solicitor since I run out of money using mine, they said won't do the case by e-mail exchange (phrased better then that)

 

I assume they are wating for further directions at CMD

 

I will copy all my evidence , someone said I should make 3 copies but I understand CMD not interested in evidence at this stage. Their solicitor obvioulsy seen all evidence already.

 

Obviously i can give dates protected disclosures made and case law (all provided by my solicitor months ago) i have a witness maybe 2 (the other she still works at company but she was involved). My solicitor raised 80 points in several letters they responsed to 10.

 

Its a complicated case they say a figure £179k in one point out of 30 we have already provided a fig of £3m (documents) FSA involved all sorts (price fixing was going on, they are just saying they didn't know at the time of our dismissal)

 

I dont want to be unprepared just no more money for solcitor who great and prop put in load more hrs then her final bill

 

Maybe I am over complicating this first stage. e.g they said many letters my performance more but we provided 7 letters e-mail my perfromance was great excellent, another they got rid of on same day for poor performance had been recommeded for promotion 8 weeks earlier !!

Edited December 10, 2011 by stewpots

[Marieleeza]

I have had no contact with their solicitor since I run out of money using mine, they said won't do the case by e-mail exchange (phrased better then that)

 

I assume they are wating for further directions at CMD

 

I will copy all my evidence , someone said I should make 3 copies but I understand CMD not interested in evidence at this stage. Their solicitor obvioulsy seen all evidence already.

Obviously i can give dates protected disclosures made and case law (all provided by my solicitor months ago) i have a witness maybe 2 (the other she still works at company but she was involved). My solicitor raised 80 points in several letters they responsed to 10.

Its a complicated case they say a figure £179k in one point out of 30 we have already provided a fig of £3m (documents) FSA involved all sorts (price fixing was going on, they are just saying they didn't know at the time of our dismissal)

 

I dont want to be unprepared just no more money for solcitor who great and prop put in load more hrs then her final bill

 

Maybe I am over complicating this first stage. e.g they said many letters my performance more but we provided 7 letters e-mail my perfromance was great excellent, another they got rid of on same day for poor performance had been recommeded for promotion 8 weeks earlier !!

 

 

You only need those multiple copies for the actual hearing not for the CMD. However, you could copy all the documents you intend to use for your case and make a list or index saying what each one is and give it to the Respondent's solicitor at the CMD and that would be your part of the disclosure done.

 

At the same time you could give the solicitor a list of the documents you want. Make a table and describe each one and give the date it was generated together with a reason why it is important for your case in another column You could make a copy of this for the judge to look at too and that will be the start of getting the extra information you need.

 

The dates of the protected disclosure should be on your ET1 claim and you should have had the ET3 response. If there are any issues about the timing or validity of your claim the judge will explain that to you at the CMD. However, you must look up similar cases and get to know the legal strengths of your case.

 

The evidence about your performance will not be discussed until the hearing. However, it would save you time if you could hand over all the evidence you have - every piece of paper that you intend to rely on - at the CMD. I would give everything,even if they all ready have their own copy just to get that over and done with. Having looked at your post again, I see that your former solicitor had already disclosed a bunch of stuff. Therefore I would give a copy of any other documents that he has not yet disclosed to the Respondent's solicitor at the CMD. It might be an idea to do a full list of all the documents disclosed giving the date, title and description of each one (make a Table on MS Word) as this is usually requested as part of disclosure. It is just a reference list which makes it easier for you, the Tribunal and the other solicitor to identify particular documents.

 

The judge will probably order the Respondent to compile the bundle for the actual hearing as the solicitor has more resources and clerical help than you do.

Edited December 11, 2011 by Marieleeza

[stu007]

Hi

 

Know i would assume this company would have a 'Whistleblowing Policy/Procedure'.

 

This may be a silly question but have asked or already have a copy of that companies 'Whistleblowing Policy/Procedure'?

[stewpots]

Hi

 

Know i would assume this company would have a 'Whistleblowing Policy/Procedure'.

 

This may be a silly question but have asked or already have a copy of that companies 'Whistleblowing Policy/Procedure'?

 

Yes but as we (new starters) were not told where the toilet /fire escape was we didnt kno about it

 

Went to management

 

Didn't know I had to do so much for CDM

 

I have no idea how my solicitor buddle evidence but I can again with a spread sheet so for example 3.6 (from there ET response) they say £179,000 I can say in spread sheet see item X (e-mail dated shows figures £2.4m + I require updated figure from them .One item they have missed off is £800k which was won through price fixing will mention feel those figures need to be included)

 

3.5 performance reason got rid of I can refer to docs x y z and give dates of e-mails when the feed back was given as excellent great work etc etc

 

they have already the evidence but tended to ignore it in ET response

[Marieleeza]

Yes but as we (new starters) were not told where the toilet /fire escape was we didnt kno about it

 

Went to management

 

Didn't know I had to do so much for CDM

 

I have no idea how my solicitor buddle evidence but I can again with a spread sheet so for example 3.6 (from there ET response) they say £179,000 I can say in spread sheet see item X (e-mail dated shows figures £2.4m + I require updated figure from them .One item they have missed off is £800k which was won through price fixing will mention feel those figures need to be included)

 

3.5 performance reason got rid of I can refer to docs x y z and give dates of e-mails when the feed back was given as excellent great work etc etc

 

they have already the evidence but tended to ignore it in ET response

You do not have to get your disclosure documents ready for the CMD. I just thought it would be a good idea as you seem to have limited communication with solicitor. I think you could bring up the issue of email with the judge as it is standard for all correspondence to be sent by email and the Tribunal copied into every email exchange.

 

Are you using a checklist? I gave you a link for one earlier? Even if checklist not required it gives you a good idea of the issues that might come up.

 

I think it best for you to come across as serious and prepared. The other side will send a barrister who may well know nothing about your case. They often just wing it at CMD. On the other hand both solicitor and barrister may turn up.

 

The judge should be helpful to you and, in my case, the judge was okay but other posters caution about relying on that as there are some stinker judges too.

 

Do you know how many days your case will take? This is largely determined by the number of witnesses.

[stewpots]

You do not have to get your disclosure documents ready for the CMD. I just thought it would be a good idea as you seem to have limited communication with solicitor. I think you could bring up the issue of email with the judge as it is standard for all correspondence to be sent by email and the Tribunal copied into every email exchange.

 

Are you using a checklist? I gave you a link for one earlier? Even if checklist not required it gives you a good idea of the issues that might come up.

 

I think it best for you to come across as serious and prepared. The other side will send a barrister who may well know nothing about your case. They often just wing it at CMD. On the other hand both solicitor and barrister may turn up.

 

The judge should be helpful to you and, in my case, the judge was okay but other posters caution about relying on that as there are some stinker judges too.

 

Do you know how many days your case will take? This is largely determined by the number of witnesses.

 

This was the response from Tribunal office not very helpful !, I will call them monday.

 

-----------------------------------

Dear Sir

 

I have referred your concerns to the judge who advised that the case management discussion is only an informal meeting where witnesses will not be in attendance. Any further instructions will be given out by the judge on the day.

 

 

Kind Regards

----------------------

 

 

I have the check list thanks and thats a great help

 

I will do a spread sheet that responses to their grounds of resistance which covers 11 points, wether I use that on tuesday don't know. They repeat same numbers figures comments re poor perfomance etc but evidence provided not true.

 

I have asked for re-instatement they said cant that section closed and position not avaible but docs provided show we were to help in another section as and when required as well as the section that was closed after our dismissal.(The section I worked in was only closed because of FSA enquiry)

 

Technically I could be re-instated if I want to if I win of course but I dont want that so have come up with some figures re compensation as well which I provided to ACAS, I had some guidence from solicitor before.

 

My main think is they don't answer my old solicitors questions I assume if i can show its important part of my case they have to.

Edited December 11, 2011 by stewpots

[Marieleeza]

This was the response from Tribunal office not very helpful !, I will call them monday.

 

-----------------------------------

Dear Sir

 

I have referred your concerns to the judge who advised that the case management discussion is only an informal meeting where witnesses will not be in attendance. Any further instructions will be given out by the judge on the day.

 

 

Kind Regards

----------------------

 

 

I have the check list thanks and thats a great help

 

I will do a spread sheet that responses to their grounds of resistance which covers 11 points, wether I use that on tuesday don't know. They repeat same numbers figures comments re poor perfomance etc but evidence provided not true.

 

I have asked for re-instatement they said cant that section closed and position not avaible but docs provided show we were to help in another section as and when required as well as the section that was closed after our dismissal.(The section I worked in was only closed because of FSA enquiry)

 

Technically I could be re-instated if I want to if I win of course but I dont want that so have come up with some figures re compensation as well which I provided to ACAS, I had some guidence from solicitor before.

 

My main think is they don't answer my old solicitors questions I assume if i can show its important part of my case they have to.

 

Before you go to court, they will have to show you every document that they are relying on and their witness statements too. Their ET3 response should give you an idea of the legislation they are relying on. Once you see their evidence, you will be able to prepare your case.

 

ACAS aim to settle cases not to get the best deal for you. Do not agree to anything verbally because it is binding and you cannot back out. Just listen and say that you will take legal advice.

 

This CMD will only last for an hour. You may have to wait a while as they do not always start on time but they do not let them over run the scheduled hour. Do not worry too much. Take someone with you for moral support. They will not be able to speak but they can sit behind you.

 

The Respondent's representative will probably not talk to you. They only like to talk to other legal bods. If they do approach you and threaten costs do not believe it. Costs are only awarded against claimants in rare circumstances.

 

Do not be scared. You will feel good after you have faced it.

 

This is what I think will happen

 

Dates for disclosure of evidence and witness statements will be set.

 

The judge will ask how many witnesses will be called and decide how many days to grant for the hearing (1-4 usually)

 

A date for the hearing will be set.

 

You might be asked to agree a list of issues that will form the basis of the hearing. These are the points to be argued. A date will be set for completing that. Email is really necessary for communication with Respondent's solicitor so bring that up as doing everything by mail would be tedious and expensive.

 

The judge will allocate responsiblility for compling the bundle of evidence to be used at the hearing. Normally the Respondent gets lumbered with this.

 

The Respondent might ask to change details of their ET3 response.

 

The judge might question anything in your ET1 claim that is unclear and he/she should help you to clarify it.

 

I have only been to one CMD so let me know if my predications were close to the reality.

[stewpots]

Before you go to court, they will have to show you every document that they are relying on and their witness statements too. Their ET3 response should give you an idea of the legislation they are relying on. Once you see their evidence, you will be able to prepare your case.

 

ACAS aim to settle cases not to get the best deal for you. Do not agree to anything verbally because it is binding and you cannot back out. Just listen and say that you will take legal advice.

 

This CMD will only last for an hour. You may have to wait a while as they do not always start on time but they do not let them over run the scheduled hour. Do not worry too much. Take someone with you for moral support. They will not be able to speak but they can sit behind you.

 

The Respondent's representative will probably not talk to you. They only like to talk to other legal bods. If they do approach you and threaten costs do not believe it. Costs are only awarded against claimants in rare circumstances.

 

Do not be scared. You will feel good after you have faced it.

 

This is what I think will happen

 

Dates for disclosure of evidence and witness statements will be set.

 

The judge will ask how many witnesses will be called and decide how many days to grant for the hearing (1-4 usually)

 

A date for the hearing will be set.

 

You might be asked to agree a list of issues that will form the basis of the hearing. These are the points to be argued. A date will be set for completing that. Email is really necessary for communication with Respondent's solicitor so bring that up as doing everything by mail would be tedious and expensive.

 

The judge will allocate responsiblility for compling the bundle of evidence to be used at the hearing. Normally the Respondent gets lumbered with this.

 

The Respondent might ask to change details of their ET3 response.

 

The judge might question anything in your ET1 claim that is unclear and he/she should help you to clarify it.

 

I have only been to one CMD so let me know if my predications were close to the reality.

 

Thanks for your help, I feel a bit more calm spent 8 hrs putting some items together in spread sheets.

 

I'm sure 80% of it won't be required at CMD but I feel better. I can wait for directions regarding a re consituted buddle, i will ask for a few more documents from them and clarity regarding some issues.

 

I haven't seen any documents or witness statements they will be relying on that will be interesting.

 

I appreciate ACAS can act as a mediator and do not favour anyone side.

[stewpots]

They have put a offer in at 3pm ie 1 day before CMD . Offer came via ACAS.

 

Its not enough, although I wont leave for London until noon tomorrow.

 

I am fully prepared.

 

I did send some details today after 3pm via ACAS which 'crushes' their defence.

 

I could pass it over tomorrow but....

[Marieleeza]

They have put a offer in at 3pm ie 1 day before CMD . Offer came via ACAS.

 

Its not enough, although I wont leave for London until noon tomorrow.

 

I am fully prepared.

 

I did send some details today after 3pm via ACAS which 'crushes' their defence.

 

I could pass it over tomorrow but....

They might up that offer before the CMD starts but if it is still not enough you could hold out.

 

It looks like you are on a winner. Good luck!

[stewpots]

They might up that offer before the CMD starts but if it is still not enough you could hold out.

 

It looks like you are on a winner. Good luck!

 

Can they put in a verbal offer before we go in and see judge ?? Could I accept a verbal offer (I have no witness)

 

I am very drained by all of this. I want a six figure sum but maybe being over optimistic, read the Daily Mail

 

I was on a good salary but just there for months

[honeybee13]

Good luck with this, it's sounding hopeful.

 

My best, HB

[stewpots]

It would be verbal and I would have no witness unless they sign something ?

 

I don't leave till noon

 

I wanted a xxxxxx but only there 5 months , read Daily Mail too much

[madari]

Hi

 

They can put an offer anytime they want to,even half way thru a full hearing just like you can withdraw your claim against them at any point, even half way thru the hearing, but this action has a potential of the otherside making a costs order against you.

 

Any offer that you accept or they make is not legally binding unless you have sought independent advice, so be careful

[Marieleeza]

Can they put in a verbal offer before we go in and see judge ?? Could I accept a verbal offer (I have no witness)

 

I am very drained by all of this. I want a xxxxxxx but maybe being over optimistic, read the Daily Mail

 

I was on a good salary but just there for months

Yes they can but if I were you I would have the CMD and think it over.

 

You have nothing to fear from the judge.

 

I know that it is stressful but do not let them drain your pockets as well as your emotions. You have been treated badly. Get them to double the offer made through ACAS.