MKDP & nationwide credit card debt Defective DN/TN?

[Stagparty]

I think it was taken out in March 2007, applied for online with a paper copy sent through the post for signing.

 

Yes I want them to fulfill the CCA request - I want them to abide by the law and to deal with this properly. I realise this is idealistic but they are the ones who have caused me most grief so far.

 

Ultimately I want to win, they have terminated the account on a defective default notice but I haven't brought that to their attention yet. I'm of the view (poosibly mistakenly) that by saying it's terminated unlawfully I'm agreeing there is a valid agreement. By win I mean not have to pay them - right at the start I tried to make an agreement with them and they would not play ball at all, I had every intention of paying them in full over time. The longer this has gone on, and the worse their actions have become, and their disregard for due process make me think stuff you. Probably a bad attitude and i apologise if you think it is. All I asked for was a little help to get me through a bad time. They made the bad time a whole lot worse.

I honestly don't know if this is the best strategy or not, if you read the thread above the concensus seems to be don't play the DN card yet.

 

I don't have a mortgage with Nationwide, no. They will have got the information regarding the mortgage balance from the CRA's and probably done some kind of online/comparison valuation I guess

[DonkeyB]

No Stagparty, I don't regard this as debt evasion - my view is that if the creditor deals fairly with its customers, then all well and good; it's when things like this happen needlessly that I get angry!

 

It's interesting that NW had analysed your position and said 'do not litigate'. I wonder why it progressed to this - to be fair to Nationwide, they're one of the better organisations to deal with.

 

Sadly, while I vaguely understand the DN situation, I think someone like Vint may be worth a PM to look in. He's the oracle on dodgy DNs and terminations.

 

Here's Vint's page.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/member.php?u=246112

[Stagparty]

Many thanks for your input Donkey - I have had huge issues with Nationwide - on another issue they have transferred an loan (regulated by the CCA) into an overdraft (not regulated by the CCA!) and doubled the interest rate etc. That one is still ongoing!

[DonkeyB]

Blimey. Do you have a thread on that? I know they can take monies from a current account to pay other loans (offsetting) but I didn't know they could get out of a CCA-regulated agreement like that. Was it in the T&Cs?

Edited January 28, 2010 by DonkeyB

[themagician]

Thanks for that diamondgirl, do you think it would be worth hammering the nail into the coffin and telling them about the unlawful rescission of contract too?

NO ! in the magicians terms ,thats the ace up the sleave!!!

[Stagparty]

Sorry for the seemingly random questions here - should Carter have sent a letter headed "Letter Before Action" at some point?

[Stagparty]

And another possibly random one - s78(6) says, if I remember correctly, that enforcement action may not be taken whilst the account is in dispute. Issuing court proceedings would certainly be enforcement action - is it worth pointing this out in words of no more than one syllable to Carters?

If he pressed on regardless would it be a case of reporting him to the Solicitors Regulatory Authority or Nationwide/Freds to the OFT and Trading Standards or both?

[Stagparty]

Blimey. Do you have a thread on that? I know they can take monies from a current account to pay other loans (offsetting) but I didn't know they could get out of a CCA-regulated agreement like that. Was it in the T&Cs?

 

 

Hi there, yes I do have a thread about this - the link is here... http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/debt-collection-industry/219512-nationwide-they-trying-scrfew.html

 

Nationwide appear to still think that their terms and conditions will take precedent over the Consumer Credit Act, I hate to be the bearer of bad news - they are mistaken. But that's another battle for another day. Today I need to sort Carter.

[NailPost]

ction cannot be taken if a mater in dispute. That would be part of your defence if it ever got to that stage. You will not be pointing this out directly to Carter but indirectly n your submissions to the court. If Carter pressed ahead the judge would be bound to remark upon it...lol

 

Its worth reporting the cretin to the SRA in any event. OFT and Trading Standards do not bother with solicitors but why not report him to them anyway - but not yet. Give him a bit more rope to hang himself. The usual excuse is administrative error so let him commit a few more errors!

[Stagparty]

ction cannot be taken if a mater in dispute. That would be part of your defence if it ever got to that stage. You will not be pointing this out directly to Carter but indirectly n your submissions to the court. If Carter pressed ahead the judge would be bound to remark upon it...lol

 

Am I right in thinking you are suggesting I don't point this out to Carter at the moment?

[vint1954]

Hi stagparty.

 

They have got themselves into a pickle.

 

1. The default notice is faulty in that it does not give you 14 clear days for service. Stick to your guns that it was second class, better if you have kept the envelope. Not overly important as by mentioning 14 days from date of letter, it could never be complient. There is a problem also in the form of the text BEFORE THE DATE SHOWN. This should stand out from the surrounding text by being bolder or underlined or both. The final and bigest nail in their coffin is demanding the full ballance in the DN. They can only demand the sums needed to rectify the breach, arrears and over limit sums.

 

2. Following the july DN, you then need to look for a term of termination. These will be a letter stating termination or a further demand for the ballance in full. Do you have any such letters?

 

This will be the kind of letter that you would have sent them in August , when you realised what they had done.

 

Dear xxxxxxxxxxxx,

 

Re account no xxxxxxxxxxxx Unlawful Rescission.

 

I refer to your Default Notice dated xxxxxxxx 2009, received by me on xxx 4 days after date on DN 2009 and your subsequent termination of the agreement by demanding the balance in full. I would add that these actions were taken by you, while the account was and remains in serious dispute, owing to your failure to properly respond to my request under s78 of the CCA 1974.

 

The default notice failed to give me the required statutory time in which to seek legal advice and/or remedy any alleged defect. Your actions resulted in insufficient time for me to even obtain an appointment with a solicitor let alone remedy the alleged default. These actions by you, have resulted in you unlawfully rescinding the alleged agreement.

 

I confirm previous acceptance of your unlawful rescission of the agreement and I note that you are now entitled to claim those arrears genuinely due at the time of the termination (not including any unlawful charges ) and I would be obliged if you would advise me of the exact amount of those arrears, against which will be a claim for unlawful rescission

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

This will be backed up by your ceasing payments around that time, so when asked how you accepted the unlawful termination, you can answer in writing and by stopping payments.

 

If this is indeed what occured, you need to write to Carters, explaining that despite your best efforts, Nationwide refused to complete your CCA request and while in dispute they issued a DN.

 

Tell them also that you accepted their unlawful rescission of the agreement on xx august 2009 in writing and that they have no cause to contact you regarding the account, let alone attempt to seek a judgement from a court. Let them work it out.

Edited January 28, 2010 by vint1954

[Stagparty]

Hi Vint

 

Thank you for your input. I do indeed have the envelope and it was sent 2nd class. The last payment to NW was made very early August 2009.

[Stagparty]

Vint - unfortunately I have not, as yet, brought up the defective DN with NW or Carters etc. Would it be too late to do so now? For what it's worth I stopped paying in August 2009.

 

My rational was if they didn't have a compliant agreement (or hadn't complied with the CCA request) then I didn't konw how I could accept a termination.

[vint1954]

Vint - unfortunately I have not, as yet, brought up the defective DN with NW or Carters etc. Would it be too late to do so now? For what it's worth I stopped paying in August 2009.

 

My rational was if they didn't have a compliant agreement (or hadn't complied with the CCA request) then I didn't konw how I could accept a termination.

Well the DN defence is the strongest one. You may have sent that letter in August? But you need to have accepted the unlawfull rescission for the defective DN to be of any use. Dont tell them anything about the DN at this stage, unless you are just refering to the letter above, if you know what I mean.

[Stagparty]

I need to check my other files I guess to see if I misfiled it.

[vint1954]

I need to check my other files I guess to see if I misfiled it.

I think that is a good idea. Have you had any other letters asking for the ballance in full or closing your acount.

[Stagparty]

KPR wrote and demanded payment saying that the account had been passed to them in August.

 

They then wrote and offered a discount on the balance for a one off payment.

 

I then got a "Final Notice" from KPR in Sept stating a total outstanding balance

 

Got a letter from Freds demanding immediate payment with the full balance shown

 

Got a letter before action from Freds showing the full balance and how they intend to inflate the debt with costs etc

 

Got another LBA from them

 

Got a letter saying I hadn't made an acceptable repayment proposal

 

Nationwide though are still sending statements adding late fees and overlimit fees to the account.

 

I'd say by demanding the full balance on the DN and by demanding the return of the card on the DN and by issuing solicitors letters and giving an ultimatum of pay or be sued by a certain date their actions would lead a reasonable person to assume that they have terminated the account.

 

What do you think?

[DonkeyB]

That to me is the same level of termination as death itself.

[vint1954]

KPR wrote and demanded payment saying that the account had been passed to them in August.

 

If that was for full payment then there it is. Your letter was probably a week or so after that. If not send it now.

 

They then wrote and offered a discount on the balance for a one off payment.

 

Account is now terminated unlawfully. Go away please

 

I then got a "Final Notice" from KPR in Sept stating a total outstanding balance

 

Got a letter from Freds demanding immediate payment with the full balance shown

 

Got a letter before action from Freds showing the full balance and how they intend to inflate the debt with costs etc

 

Got another LBA from them

 

Got a letter saying I hadn't made an acceptable repayment proposal

 

Nationwide though are still sending statements adding late fees and overlimit fees to the account.

 

No account to add them to.

 

I'd say by demanding the full balance on the DN and by demanding the return of the card on the DN and by issuing solicitors letters and giving an ultimatum of pay or be sued by a certain date their actions would lead a reasonable person to assume that they have terminated the account.

 

Just a little

 

What do you think?

Send the letter to Carters. You must be bemused as heck having sent that acceptance letter.

 

Mention also that they have no cause for action due to DN and your acceptance in August of their unlawful rescission and that to proceed to court after this event and now that you have alerted them to the situation, could well be concidered an abuse of process and also that this will be brought to the courts attention.

Edited January 28, 2010 by vint1954

[vint1954]

That to me is the same level of termination as death itself.

[Stagparty]

Thank you very much guys. Donkey - you've managed to bring a smile to my face... well done!

[Stagparty]

The title says it all really - I currently have 2 DCA's and the Original Creditor all trying to collect the same amount (which isn't due because of an unlawful rescission following a defective DN).

 

Can anyone please point me in the direction of the regulations that govern who should be collecting?

 

Thanks in advance

SP

[harrassed senior]

One is the simple answer.

 

If the account is in dispute, it should remain with the disputed DCA and is not allowed to be sold on.

 

Are you sure it is not just another 'branch' of the same DCA, as this is a trick they use.

[Stagparty]

Thanks Senior - I thought it was just one. The two DCA's are Fred's and AIC - I don't think they are connected, are they?

 

Is the "one at a time" rule stated in any guidelines as far as you know?

[Jasper1965]

Thanks Senior - I thought it was just one. The two DCA's are Fred's and AIC - I don't think they are connected, are they?

 

Is the "one at a time" rule stated in any guidelines as far as you know?

 

The OFT guidance on Debt Collection

 

Physical/psychological harassment

2.5 Putting pressure on debtors or third parties is considered to be oppressive.

2.6 Examples of unfair practices are as follows:

a. contacting debtors at unreasonable times and at unreasonable intervals

b. pressurising debtors to sell property, to raise funds by further

borrowing or to extend their borrowing

c. using more than one debt collection business at the same time

resulting in repetitive and/or frequent contact by different parties