Changing claim amount from Prelim to LBA

[redsue]

Hi Isiris - I don't mind at all however I'm not at your stage yet - I know some people on here have been advising caution on changing at later stages (so as not to appear greedy to the courts) - love to help you out but I'm afraid I'm not sure of the process once MCOL has been issued.

[dolly]

Isris - the only way you could do it would be to cancel your claim and re-issue.

Redsue - that sounds fine.

[redsue]

thanks Dolly, LBAs are ready to roll and going out in the post tonight - tee hee...

[redsue]

LBAs going out in the post tonight with compounded contractual interest on penalty charges, then the clock begins again...

[bill-k]

Glad to see you're really going for it, Redsue. So you finally believed your figures. Brill.

Thanks due to Dolly, no doubt !!

[redsue]

to be honest bill-k, I didn't understand applying the compound interest onto the 'complex' spreadsheets so I've decided just to use Vampiress spreadsheet (SIMPLE VERSION - Throughout claim with compounded contractual interest) as I could get my head around that one - it certainly makes a difference - fingers crossed I've got my sums right - I've also changed some of the wording on my LBAs to incorporate the new amount which Dolly has checked over - she's a star!

[bill-k]

Great stuff, Redsue. Funny, that's what I ended up doing - I used Mindzai's ss first of all, but wasn't sure (like you weren't) about the huge figures. So I set about working it out for myself, using Vamps' Simple SS, with those compound formulae I worked out, then compared my results with Mindzai's. I ended up printing out the Vamps simple sheets with columns showing all 3 rates: Unauthorised and Authorised (componded daily), then Statutory 8% simple. I used Mindzai's Claim Particulars to claim either of the 3 rates "in the alternative."

Like you, now, I'm just waiting. Ain't it funny how much junk mail arrives in the post when you're waiting for something special ? !!!

[redsue]

Hi bill-k, I was just wondering how you where progressing with your claims? Have you heard anything from NW yet? Did you receive a 'yeah whatever' letter?

I finally decided to go for the compounded contractual interest at 24.9% and the claim went from about £2,200 to about £4,300 - which was interesting

I've not heard anything from NW regarding my prelim or LBA which I sent 5 days ago so I'm just playing the waiting game.

I am hoping to prepare my MCOL so that I can literally press the button when the 14 days are up ( I may give them 15 days cos I'm nice like that!) and was wondering how you had worded your MCOL with regards to the compounded interest? I realise I can't claim the standard 8% if I go down the 24.9% route. Both my parachute accounts are up and running with OD's on them (phew). So I'm really ready to rock and roll.

Any help would be really appreciated - thanks.

I'm on a roll now as I've started down this road with MBNA too!

[bill-k]

Hi Redsue - Thanks for asking. I did in fact receive no less than FOUR "sod off's" from NatWest (apparently that's what they call them, according to one of our friendly bank staff members on-site !). So I sent the claim in to Southend SCC, and heard nothing, then finally (today, as it 'appens) I got TWO letters. The first, from the County Court with the N205A Notice of Issue, stating that the claim will be deemed to have been served on 22/09/06. The second with the N9 & N10 Acknowledgement of Service forms. They (RBS) have stated that they intend to defend all of the claim in the High Court of Justice, Queen's Bench Division, Commercial Court, Royal Courts of Justice !!!

 

AS IF. So they're trying to scare me witless. I guess they'll do the same to you. This move gives them a further 28 days to string this out, while the likes of you & I are expected to wet our pants and give in. Me? Yes - I wet my pants - bloody laughing !! What happens here is that either:

a) we throw in the towel, thinking that we'll have our case scrutinized at the Old Bailey. THEY WOULDN'T DARE.

b) we don't blink. THEY will make a "last-minute" paltry offer of settlement before it gets that far. THEY WISH.

c) we still don't blink. THEY have to pay all we claimed before it goes to Court. There is no way they could afford to lose at the Old Bailey, and they would. They know it, but they are hoping that we don't.

 

I have to admit I didn't use MCOL as they don't allow exemption from Court fees if you're receiving I.R. Tax Credits (which we are), so I used the old snail-mail system. Apparently, there is limited space on the MCOL claim page for much more than "I want my money back, you ankers !" I think other postings here mention sending in detailed Particulars of Claim to MCOL via snail-mail. If you're using Mindzai's (or similar) Details of Claim, then you will need to do this I think, as you will need to list the amounts (e.g. the 8% option) claimed "in the alternative."

 

You got your parachutes - good (qualify for a free case of wine, did we ?)

 

It's empowering innit, this CAG/BAG bunch of geezers. I'm also doing MBNA. Another story - another day (I've had my Friday booze, so I might wax a little too lyrical !!) Remind me if I don't tell.

 

If you're not desperate for the cash, then I'd suggest that you give them a few more days than you threatened. It helps with your image as the good guy, if push comes to shove. As long as you don't cut it short, you don't have to stick rigidly to your deadline.

 

You doin' good, babe.

[redsue]

Hi Bill-k! Royal Courts of Justice *big grin* Get you! Make sure you get your suit in the dry cleaners as if they want their day in court.

Yes, I have to admit I'm feeling a tad empowered at the moment - I've just been reading All8pne thread and he got paid out from NW really quick - so I'm counting the days down until MCOL.

I'm not sure whether to use MCOL or N1 claim form for the next stage. This is partly because I'm claiming for the compunded contractual interest I'm not too sure of the wording I'm going to use.

All the examples on this site, that people have kindly given us, are for the 8% interest to which I know I can't claim alongside the compounded contractual interest. However, I know that Mindzai included a fall back option to the effect of- can I have this amount (xx%), or this (xx%) if not I'll have the 8% instead. But personally I don't feel comfortable with that. I also know that you're pushed for space on the MCOL form.

Any ideas my mate? :?

I've still not heard anything at all from NW - no letters, nothing on two accounts - I know they've received the letters as they were signed for by recorded delivery.

[crashbandicoot]

Use the N1 form redsue, it'll give you all the space you need. MCOL leaves you pushed for space anyway, and the banks can use delaying tactics by saying your claim/particulars aren't clear/detailed enough etc.

[bill-k]

However, I know that Mindzai included a fall back option to the effect of- can I have this amount (xx%), or this (xx%) if not I'll have the 8% instead. But personally I don't feel comfortable with that. I also know that you're pushed for space on the MCOL form.

Any ideas my mate? :?

 

I'm not even sure I can still get into my suit, these days. I really better check, to see if the moths got into it first !!

Crash has answered your N1 query I think. As regards Mindzai's Particulars (I'm sure he won't mind us discussing them behind his back ) - questioned him, as it looked like all those options made him seem so unsure of his case. His reply made sense. As I understand it, the Court cannot award anything which you haven't claimed. Setting out the alternatives effectively puts a legally acceptable safety-net under your primary claim. If (and I mean IF) it gets to Court, AND the bank successfully argues that the unauthorised rate is unfair (that's a big ASIF), then the Court can only award you the charges without interest. They cannot award any other interest if it's not claimed in the alternative. So you claim the Contractual Authorised rate, and then Statutory as a final fallback, should they successfully argue that Contractual doesn't apply at all.

I thought it showed a weakness, but it apparently shows you know a bit more about their game than yer average punter - or that "you know a man who does" !!

 

There is a possibility that a Court clerk will return your claim as incorrect because they are not used to yer average bod putting in such long claims. They better get used to it. I returned my papers with a polite letter explaining, and am now waiting. Mindzai & Lucid say that theirs went through OK.

 

HTH.

 

Stick at it, gal.

[bill-k]

PS Redsue - I think it was Tim who put it another way, as well. Using the alternatives makes it a simple decision for the Judge. Instead of the possibility of legal haggling over how much, it becomes a multiple-choice - A, B or C. Easier all round, I should think, so it gets you brownie points.

Just hope the Judge doesn't ask to phone a friend - or even worse, says "...but we don't want to give you that...!!"

[redsue]

ha ha - and look at the skeletons in Mr Tarrants cupboard (dirty ticket!)

 

Yes, makes sense - anything that makes life easier for the judges - I'm starting to prepare the details of my N1 form.

Forgive me if I'm asking another dumb question - but can I use the PDF file of the N1 form that Bankfodder kindly supplied? Or do I pop down to my local court to pick one up? :-|

 

Had a bit of a shock today too! I checked our bank accounts online and saw a cheque deposit that I wasn't expecting at all - phoned hubby in great excitement - thinking wow this is it and I've not even filed yet! Only to be told by hubby that he'd put it in

 

memo to self: get these bank charges off your mind!

[bill-k]

Well, at least our Chris can afford to maintain a few skeletons ( cough, cough !!)

 

I should think you can print out BF's PDF N1 form, then fill it in by hand, or you can do the same with a copy from your local CC. I did neither.

Sorry, being a techie, I got on to the HMCS site, and downed a load of info & forms from there. Worth a browse. What you can do there is open a PDF file of the N1 form, then fill it in online, then print it off (don't forget - 3 copies). It looks nice and neat like that, but you'll need your claim details ready, as you can't save it and edit it later. You still have to delete some options by hand, and sign it, of course. I just put in "attached" in the Detailed Particulars of Claim section, then sent my details on a separate sheet (using Mindzai's example).

I sent in three separately stapled sets of the following to the SCC:-

N1 form (printed on 2 sides - in black & white, colour's run out on mine !!);

Detailed Particulars of Claim (on separate sheet);

Schedule of charges (Spreadsheet printout);

N1A (2 sides of Help info - not sure if needed, but sent for politeness)

- so that's 3 sets of 4 sheets.

The only bit I had to leave the house for was to post the claim. As good as MCOL as far as I'm concerned - and if you have detailed Particulars, then it's probably better. MCOL uses less paper, though, as I expect you only have to file one copy online - so it's greener !!

 

Us hubbys are good at that trick, ain't we? Get you all excited, then doze off on the sofa, completely unaware of the Niagara of juices that we've just accidentally started !! Never mind, maybe you can retaliate later with "Look what I've spent our little bonus on...!!"

 

I better go, I'm....feeling a....bit.....................

................................................................................................

.................ZZZZZZ.............ZZZZZZZ!!!

[redsue]

Hi, I'm back after fretting about filling in my N1 Form. Thanks bill-k for the previous info, I've taken it all on board and I'm going submit my claim on Monday. I can't believe how quickly some people have been paid out - great news, I just hope I haven't missed the boat.

 

I'd be really grateful if someone could please check my particulars of claim as I'm nervous as to whether I have filled it in correctly as I'm going for compounded contractual interest at the unauthorised rate of 24.9%. I'm not going to use a fallback authorised rate as this is 7.75% (may as well go for the s69 rate of 8%)

 

I've filled in my N1 form and entered the following information

 

Brief details of claim

RECLAIMING UNLAWFUL BANK CHARGES TAKEN OVER A SIX YEAR PERIOD ON TWO ACCOUNTS HELD WITH THE DEFENDANT

 

Particulars of Claim

 

In XXXXX County Court

 

BETWEEN

HUBBY and ME

AND

Nationwide Building Society

 

1.The Claimants have, between them, a joint account XXXXXXXX and another account XXXXXXXX ("the Accounts") with the Defendant which were opened on or around [DATE].

 

2. During the period in which the Accounts have been operating the Defendant debited numerous charges to the Accounts in respect of purported breaches of contract on the part of the Claimants and also charged interest on the charges once applied. The Claimants understand that the Defendant contends that the charges were debited in accordance with the terms of the contract between itself and the Claimants.

 

3. A list of the charges applied is attached to these particulars of claim.

 

4. The Claimants contend that:

 

a) The charges debited to the Accounts, as outlined in the attached schedule, are punitive in nature; are not a genuine pre-estimate of cost incurred by the Defendant; exceed any alleged actual loss to the Defendant in respect of any breaches of contract on the part of the Claimants; and are not intended to represent or related to any alleged actual loss, but instead unduly enrich the Defendant which exercises the contractual term in respect of such charges with a view to profit. In the event that the charges are not a penalty, they are unreasonable under The Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 section 15. The Defendant has declined to justify the charges.

 

b) The contractual provision that permits the Defendant to levy such charges is unenforceable by virtue of The Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations (1999) paragraph 8 and schedule 2(1)(e), The Unfair Contracts Terms Act 1977 section 4 and the common law.

 

5. Accordingly the Claimants claim:

 

a) the return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £2,191.50 and interest charged thereon in the sum of £115.57;

 

b) Court costs;

 

c) the additional costs incurred by the Claimant in the writing and sending of letters to the Defendant pursuant to this claim in the sum of £4, as set out in the attached list of costs.

 

d) the Claimants claim contractual interest at a rate of 24.9% per annum, from the date of each transaction to 9th October 2006, which is £2,151.31, as set out in the attached list of charges. The Claimants further claim interest, on the resulting total of £4,342.81, at the same rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment, at a daily rate of £0.95 per day.

 

The account’s Terms and Conditions specify the interest payable on unauthorised drawings from the account. The Claimants hold that this applies to unauthorised drawings by the Defendant as well as to unauthorised drawings by the Claimants. Should the court deem this incorrect, the Claimants claim the rate to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity, and is based on the Defendant’s unauthorised overdraft interest rate that would be applied under the terms of the above mentioned account.

 

Should the court find that this interest rate is not applicable, then in the alternative the Claimants claim interest under Section 69 of the County Court Act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum calculated from 20th September 2000 to 9th October 2006, which is £175.32 and continuing until payment or the date of judgement at a daily rate of £0.52.

 

We believe that the contents of these particulars of claim are true.

 

 

I'm enclosing a list of costs e.g. S.A.R - (Subject Access Request) fees x 2 = £20, Recorded delivery postage cost x4 =£4.00 and also enclosing a schedule of charges for both of the accounts.

 

I understand that I need to print off and sign 3 copies of everything. Can I then take these down and hand them into our local court by hand with my payment of £120 or do I have to post them with a cheque?

 

Thanks in advance for your help and guidance :o xx

[bill-k]

Hi Redsue,

I'm just off out so I'll look closer tonight, and let you know anything else I can see. At the moment, it looks like you're claiming compound interest in the primary claim, but s.69 in the alternative. Remember that this is Simple, whereas the 7.75% is Compound, so you would get more from that if you included it I think.

I personally prefer to state "Compounded Daily at an annual rate of XX%" for my interest claim.

I've always posted my claims, so I can't say for sure about taking it in personally. If it's local, you might as well. The worst they can do is tell you they need a check, or they need it posted. Yes, three copies of everything.

Catchulater,

Bill.

[bill-k]

Redsue, I've had a closer look and, apart from my earlier suggestions, the only other query I have is with your alternative s.69 claim. It is claimed from one single date, as opposed to being claimed from the date of each transaction.

I'm no expert, though, so try and get the opinion of a higher-standing member or a Mod if you can.

I'm off away for a week, so will be offline for a bit. Anything urgent, send me tonite and I'll check before I go, if I can.

 

You shouldn't need luck, so I won't wish you it. I wish you, strength, resolve, bloody-mindedness, determination, and the ability to be courteous and merciful to the vanquished !!

 

.....Oh, and loads of patience !!!

 

Go get 'em, gal.

 

Bill.

[redsue]

Thanks Bill-k as always for the encouragement although I think you may have already departed on your hollybobs - you never know I may have my dosh by the time you get back!!

 

I've taken your advice on board and changed some of the particulars - could anyone else possibly have a quick check over it for me please?

 

 

5. Accordingly the Claimants claim:

 

a) the return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £2,191.50 and interest charged thereon in the sum of £115.57;

 

b) Court costs;

 

c) the additional costs incurred by the Claimant in the writing and sending of letters to the Defendant pursuant to this claim in the sum of £4, as set out in the attached list of costs.

 

d) the Claimants claim contractual interest compounded daily at an annual rate of 24.9% per annum, from the date of each transaction to 9th October 2006, which is £2,151.31, as set out in the attached list of charges. The Claimants further claim interest, on the resulting total of £4,342.81, at the same rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment, at a daily rate of £0.95 per day.

 

The account’s Terms and Conditions specify the interest payable on unauthorised drawings from the account. The Claimants hold that this applies to unauthorised drawings by the Defendant as well as to unauthorised drawings by the Claimants. Should the court deem this incorrect, the Claimants claim the rate to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity, and is based on the Defendant’s unauthorised overdraft interest rate that would be applied under the terms of the above mentioned account.

 

Should the court find that this interest rate is not applicable, then in the alternative the Claimants claim contractual interest compounded daily at an annual rate of 7.75% per annum, from the date of each transaction to 9th October 2006, which is £531.52, as set out in the attached list of charges. The Claimants further claim interest, on the resulting total of £2,723.02, at the same rate up to the date of judgement or earlier payment, at a daily rate of £0.59 per day.

 

The account’s Terms and Conditions specify the interest payable on authorised drawings from the account. The Claimants hold that this applies to authorised drawings by the Defendant as well as to authorised drawings by the Claimants. Should the court deem this incorrect, the Claimants claim the rate to be justified under the principle of mutuality and reciprocity, and is based on the Defendant’s authorised overdraft interest rate that would be applied under the terms of the above mentioned account.

 

Should the court find that this interest rate is not applicable, then in the alternative the Claimants claim interest under Section 69 of the County Court Act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum calculated from the date of each transaction to 9th October 2006, which is £175.32 and continuing until payment or the date of judgement at a daily rate of £0.52.

 

Dolly, lovely to see you're back - if you get the chance to take a look I'd really appreciate it, however I know you have loads on your plate at the minute.

 

Any mods care to comment - thanks again people - I'm a tad nervous as i'm going for the jugular with compounded contractual...

[redsue]

Hi everyone just thought I'd let you know that I filed my claim today against NW with my local court - so I'm £120 out of pocket - I just hope this goes through as planned :o

Once I've got my claim number I'll pm a mod with the details - wish me luck...

[redsue]

Just found out my case number and pm'd a mod - filed 9/10/06. I've just checked with our local court who where very helpful. NW have until 25 Oct (2 days to serve plus 14 days) to file a defence or an acknowledgement of service which gives them a further 14 days until 8 November - another waiting game....

[redsue]

still no word from NW.....

[redsue]

Woo Hoo! :grin: :grin: :grin: :grin:

Great news everyone - NW has paid back some cash into our two accounts! I'm not sure how they have arrived at their figures and they are still £2,000 grand short but it's a start - with compounded interest the claim was £4,482.81 and they've paid us back £2,457.40 - so I'm going to send a letter to Mr Bacon and ask him for the rest - I'll also keep an eye out for our 'get out' account letters.

Bill-k I'm expecting you back from your hollybobs soon - its been quiet without you!

Thank you all so much for the support - donation definately on its way, thanks for all the advice - this is a really cool site in helping to empower people. :grin:

[bill-k]

Yee-Har !! Ride 'em cowboy !! :grin:

 

Just got back from hols today. Bermuda's nice (they tell me). Nice is good, but better in Cannes. Weymouth woz wet, though - I know that for a fact !!! Oh well, it was a break from routine. Got a week away in a caravan with Tesco Clubcard tokens (another Martin Lewis idea !!) Kids enjoyed it.

 

Excellent news, Redsue - they've as good as caved in. It looks like they tried to pay you the basic amount, but without the Contractual interest, and hoped you'd BOTTLE OUT !!! LOL+ROTFL !!! You won't need me to tell you, now, though, will you ? You've got 'em by the bits - now pull & twist - they're almost asking you to do it !!! :grin:

 

...I almost think they'll pay up, and beg you for more punishment !!

 

Who's in charge, now, eh ??

 

Good for me, too. We got back from hols and ploughed into the mail, as yer do. Lo & behold, our NW (NatWest, now RBOS) had sent a cheque for the full amount claimed. It was just £125, but it included ('ere...get this):-

" The return of the amounts debited in respect of charges in the sum of £60.00 and interest charged thereon in the sum of £23.67 " and...

" the additional costs incurred by the Claimant in the preparation, writing and sending of two letters to the Defendant pursuant to this claim - at the rate of £6.00 per letter - in the sum of £12.00, and also costs in the preparation, writing and sending of this claim to the Court in the sum of £30.00. "

 

On a smaller scale to yours, but a victory of the principles.

 

This was the crew who were gonna see me at the Old Bailey !!! I might send them the cleaning bill for my suit, anyway !!

 

Here's lookin' at you, kid !!

 

Who's next....Competition time. What DOES MBNA really stand for ?? !!

 

MayBe No Answer ?

My Balance Not Addup ?

More Bloody Naughty Additions ?

 

...somebody grab the mike, and have a go.

[bram stoker]

Hi again,

 

From your posts and your email to me I can see 2 things:

 

1. There is no option B in your claim - no mention of the authorised rate, so they haven't paid that.

 

2. They appear to have paid you £413.13 in interest. I don't know how they calculate this.

 

I would reject the offer telling them very simply in no uncertain terms that you are unclear as to their calculation of tax which appears to be incorrect, and that you are claiming 24.9% interest.

 

No need to mention that it's for a judge to decide if this rate is too high.

 

Good luck.