Suing landlord, what next after LBA?

[keithdrum]

I found a couple of links for you..

 

propertyhawk.co.uk/index.php?

 

has the following..

 

"Understanding fair wear & tear

This is where landlords have to apply the principle of fair wear & tear to the condition of their property

 

There is nothing in statute which defines ‘fair wear and tear’; the concept is too wide ranging to be enshrined in law. The Association of Residential Letting Agents (ARLA) has however produced some useful guidelines for its’ members on what to consider when coming to a view on it. These are:

 

• The original age, quality and condition of any item at commencement of the tenancy
  
• The average useful lifespan to value ratio (depreciation) of the item
  
• The reasonable expected usage of such an item
  
• The number and type of occupants in the property
  
• The length of the tenants’ occupancy
  

Legally a landlord should not end up, either financially or materially in a better position than he was in at the commencement of the tenancy or than he would have been at the end of the tenancy having allowed for fair wear and tear.

It follows therefore (and is an established legal tenet) that a landlord is not entitled to charge his tenants the full cost for having any part of his property, or any fixture or fitting “put back to the condition it was at the start of the tenancy.” This would constitute betterment. "

and from this forum..

consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?157833

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

There is a patch of paint taken off the wall where my head has been leaned against it as the bed has never had a headboard, and there are a few tiny spots taken off for whatever reason (I don't even know). I said some spots need touching up and I'm willing to pay for the paint but she has got a painter in to quote for the entire room and wants to take the whole bill out of my deposit!! Surely this is just regarded as wear and tear anyway????

[marlow]

Thanks for info. In the thread you linked there is a link to a thread about unfair deposit deductions and it says if there is no inventory to the property then they cannot keep your deposit for ANYTHING other than rent arrears. Also there's something about the Tenancy Deposit Scheme which if the landlord didn't enter into (and she didn't) or make tewnant aware of it (which she didn't) then there is a harsh penalty for it. So I guess I'll be taking her to court. *sigh*

[marlow]

But thinking about it I have already admitted through emails that paint is taken off saying I'm willing to pay for some paint, so that kinda screws me now?

[Steve__M]

It depends on the details of what you and LL have said in your emails. If you really said "I'm willing to pay for some paint", then that could be a tester pot costing a pound or 30 litres of Dulux emulsion.

[marlow]

Lol, I said she can take off £20. The deposit is oly £100 so thank chuff it's not a full month! I have emailed her further stating that a painter's quote won't be far off the entire deposit I paid and she has replied saying she will only charge me for some of the work. So I'd estimate her to charge no less than £40 or something. Those wear and tear terms posted earlier are still very ambiguous. It should be straight cut as to whether head wear on a wall because a headboard wasn't provided is considered wear and tear or damage??

[Vicky30]

This does not seem fair to me I would seek further advise.

[marlow]

This does not seem fair to me I would seek further advise.

 

And here I am....

[Steve__M]

So you have said £20 and she has said she wants more. It is possible then that she has therefore rejected your offer. In which case you are back to square one.

 

You could in this case write back and say that having reconsidered, you don't think you should be required to pay anything.

[marlow]

I live in a house in which the landlady also resides. It's a 6 month contract that started on 4th Feb of this year. Recently I discovered she'd been through some of my stuff which I'd stored in the garage and taken something, obviously without my consent. She's admitted to taking it via text (she works long hours and rarely see her at home). Am I now within my rights to move on before the contract ends? Also regarding deposit, it's one month's worth and ISN'T protected. Would I be within my rights to live out the final month rent free to guarantee my deposit returned? If not and she makes up a load of bull**** to keep it, will I have to go through small claims?

[Steve__M]

As it sounds like you are a lodger, the deposit protection rules do not apply.

 

Do you have a written contract. If so what does it say about deposit?

 

I suppose whether you can lawfully leave depends on whether what the landlady did constituted a fundamental breach of your contract. Did she take something of value and sell it, or was it less serious.

 

The best thing is for you and the landlady to discuss the issue.

[marlow]

I'm not a lodger there's a proper contract. It says nothing about deposit being protected, obviously like most landlords she will know nothing about such thing. She took a football and gave it to some kids. It was in a storage bag which wasn't sealed but no contents were seeable unless someone snoops through it.

[MrShed]

Proper contract or not, it still sounds like you are a lodger - your legal position cannot be overriden by a contract. Is it one house, or multiiple independant "dwellings"? As for the issue you have questioned about, a breach of contract does not constitute the contract being null and void.

[Ed999]

I live in a house in which the landlady also resides. It's a 6 month contract that started on 4th Feb of this year.

 

 

You're a lodger - technically, what the law calls a licensee. You do not have a tenancy, because a tenancy cannot exist where you share the premises with the landlord.

 

The tenancy deposit scheme does not apply, because you do not have a tenancy.

 

The only rights you have are contractual rights: whatever your contract says. You have very few statutory rights as a licensee.

 

You will be better off not paying the final month's rent, if you believe the landlord will not return your deposit. You can't be evicted, except under a court order, which will probably take at least a month to obtain.

 

A licensee can only be evicted by notice by being given 4 weeks written notice, in the form prescribed under the Protection From Eviction Act 1977.

[Steve__M]

Giving away a football sounds a bit odd but having someone steal your stuff (usually milk, butter, biscuits, newspapers, books, cds, frisbees) is part of shared living as far as I can remember! Suggest you work things through with your landlady.

[marlow]

Oh so just because the LL lives there aswell that makes us not tenants? Well I never knew that, another stupid law amongst the many involved in residential stuff! Why should anyone have any more or less rights just because one of the human beings living in the house happens to be the LL? So does this now also mean that she can give me ONE month's notice to leave as opposed to TWO that is law for tenants?????

 

The house itself is kind of a grey are where "multiple dwellings" are concerned. I have my own living quarters all to myself which includes a bathroom and toilet, all downstairs. It is all an extension made on the house a few years ago. So am I still a "lodger" now?

 

If I am then I should still have more rights than what a contract says, especially considering it has dumb penalty clauses in for late rent payment which I just laughed off and told her "she'll be lucky!!!" That is illegal to anyone!

 

So if I refuse to pay the last 4 weeks rent , what if she changes the locks while I'm out? Can I call the police and have the right to break in?

Edited July 15, 2011 by marlow

[MrShed]

Oh so just because the LL lives there aswell that makes us not tenants? Well I never knew that, another stupid law amongst the many involved in residential stuff! Why should anyone have any more or less rights just because one of the human beings living in the house happens to be the LL?

Because it changes the usage of the property. It is fair and equitable that the property is treated differently in such a scenario.

So does this now also mean that she can give me ONE month's notice to leave as opposed to TWO that is law for tenants?????

 

It means that the LL can give you whatever the notice is in the contract.

The house itself is kind of a grey are where "multiple dwellings" are concerned. I have my own living quarters all to myself which includes a bathroom and toilet, all downstairs. It is all an extension made on the house a few years ago. So am I still a "lodger" now?

 

Is it an independant dwelling? Does it have its own address? is the living quarters "self contained" - i.e. can you go between your living quarters and hers without going outside?

If I am then I should still have more rights than what a contract says, especially considering it has dumb penalty clauses in for late rent payment which I just laughed off and told her "she'll be lucky!!!" That is illegal to anyone!

 

So if I refuse to pay the last 4 weeks rent , what if she changes the locks while I'm out? Can I call the police and have the right to break in?

 

Why do you feel you should have greater rights than you signed up to voluntarily? No you could not call the police in such a scenario. It would be a civil matter.

[MrShed]

In the nicest possible way, you seem as if you are making yourself out to be a victim here. In reality, although her behaviour is inappropriate, your reaction is wholly disproportionate. Moreover, your comments re: your rights are both short sighted and misinformed, and you seem to bear no responsibilty yourself for not having checked into your own legal position, nor for the fact that you feel that the contract you yourself signed is inadequate - it was your own choice to sign it and agree to the terms within. I would suggest that, before you do something you regret, or ensure that the LL/lodger relationship completely blows up, that you calm down, take stock, and discuss the situation calmly and rationally with your LL. It may not feel like it, but I can promise you that the breach, and the issue, is nowhere near as big an issue in reality as it seems to you right now. This is friendly advice, not a dig - please take it in such a fashion.

[marlow]

Is it an independant dwelling? Does it have its own address? is the living quarters "self contained" - i.e. can you go between your living quarters and hers without going outside?

 

Doesn't have it's own address no but it has a side door to the back garden with a doorbell that's linked to my room only. I can't get to the outside without going through the shared kitchen though.

 

Why do you feel you should have greater rights than you signed up to voluntarily? No you could not call the police in such a scenario. It would be a civil matter.

 

Well that's like saying why does a tenant feel he has more rights than whatever is written in a tenant's contract? Because it depends what is in that contract doesn't it? It matters not what's written on paper, what matters is the law. So you can 100% assure me that as a "licencee", as you call it, that I am NOT entitled to 2 months notice as would be the case in a proper tenancy case and can you link me to the law that states as much please if so? Obviously I still have the same rights as a normal tenant concerning getting my deposit back too? btw thanks for your input.

[marlow]

In the nicest possible way, you seem as if you are making yourself out to be a victim here. In reality, although her behaviour is inappropriate, your reaction is wholly disproportionate. Moreover, your comments re: your rights are both short sighted and misinformed, and you seem to bear no responsibilty yourself for not having checked into your own legal position, nor for the fact that you feel that the contract you yourself signed is inadequate - it was your own choice to sign it and agree to the terms within. I would suggest that, before you do something you regret, or ensure that the LL/lodger relationship completely blows up, that you calm down, take stock, and discuss the situation calmly and rationally with your LL. It may not feel like it, but I can promise you that the breach, and the issue, is nowhere near as big an issue in reality as it seems to you right now. This is friendly advice, not a dig - please take it in such a fashion.

 

Yeah sure I know what you're saying there, don't worry I'm not having any sort of contact with her at all at the moment. I'm kind of moving on to more stuff about deposits and what not now that I've only suddenly realised things are different as a lodger than as a tenant. See this is something I never knew and I've been posting on here about my rights as a lodger for the past 5 years!

[MrShed]

Doesn't have it's own address no but it has a side door to the back garden with a doorbell that's linked to my room only. I can't get to the outside without going through the shared kitchen though.

 

 

 

Well that's like saying why does a tenant feel he has more rights than whatever is written in a tenant's contract? Because it depends what is in that contract doesn't it? It matters not what's written on paper, what matters is the law. So you can 100% assure me that as a "licencee", as you call it, that I am NOT entitled to 2 months notice as would be the case in a proper tenancy case and can you link me to the law that states as much please if so? Obviously I still have the same rights as a normal tenant concerning getting my deposit back too? btw thanks for your input.

 

With the greatest respect, no. I'm not your lawyer, and I am not going to run off to do your homework for you. Yes, I can 100% guarantee you that is your position as a licencee.It really is up to you if you choose to believe this or otherwise.

[MrShed]

Yeah sure I know what you're saying there, don't worry I'm not having any sort of contact with her at all at the moment. I'm kind of moving on to more stuff about deposits and what not now that I've only suddenly realised things are different as a lodger than as a tenant. See this is something I never knew and I've been posting on here about my rights as a lodger for the past 5 years!

 

But why are you having no contact with her? Off the back of this incident I presume? Are you wishing to remain in the property, or are you now keen to leave?

[Aequitas]

You do not have a tenancy, because a tenancy cannot exist where you share the premises with the landlord.

 

A statement which bears examination.

 

The fact that the landlord "lives on the premises" does not stop an arrangement being a tenancy. It is quite possible to be a "resident landlord"; see for example paragraph 10 of Schedule 1 to the Housing Act 1988. The key (apart from deciding whether the landlord meets the criteria for being a resident landlord) is whether you have exclusive occupation of your room(s). Indications that you do not have exclusive occupation will be whether the landlord supplies services such as cleaning, supplying linen and the like and whether the right is reserved to move you to another room. What your agreement says (whether it purports to grant a tenancy or licence) will not be conclusive.

[mariner51]

Sounds like OP is in a granny flat extension. Property does not appear to be 'self contained' as he shares kitchen with LL(?) What is the situation regards gas, elec & water? seperate meters or shared bills? Is the ext assessed sep for C Tax?

Re lodgers vs Ts rights. Anyone (LL) generous enough to provide accom in their own main residence also has to have some rights to prevent exploitation.

[marlow]

My room is exclusive to me only yes. The contract says she has to give me 24hr notice before entering it of her own accord except in emergency cases because there is actually a fuse box in my room so should a fuse trip then she has to go in there without 24hrs notice, so the contract says. Otherwise yes, we share the kitchen and also I have shared access to every room downstairs but no rooms upstairs, as the contract states. And all bills are inclusive of the rent.

 

MrShed pardon my lack of clarity, I didn't mean I'm not talking to the woman, I simply meant don't worry I'm not going around guns blazing telling her she's a nosey so and so with no right to go through my stuff etc etc. We rarely cross paths through the house and therefore we haven't spoken face to face for about a week or so. There is no more to be said, anyway, on the matter I originally started this thread about. I was initally wondering could I terminate the contract early but the 6 month contract is up in early August anyway so by the time I'd found somewhere and arranged things I wouldn't need to break contract. However as you know I am now concerned about getting my deposit back when I leave as you seem to have instilled in my mind that I have less rights than 'tenants' regarding this matter? But now it seems with other's input that it is unclear whether I am a tenant or a lodger.

[MrShed]

This was kind of the driver behind my questioning re: it being a unique dwelling, as you can be a tenant with a residential landlord in certain circumstances (as Aequitas has stated above). You dont neccessarily have less rights than a tenant re: deposit if you are a lodger, you simply have a different route of reclaiming it - i.e. not tenancy deposit scheme, just through the courts.