JSA or ESA - for a friend

[terrypc]

I opted for JSA in the same circumstance as I did not want to go through the ESA nightmare hoops of fire to get any money! I also wanted to do some work and this was more flexible on JSA I found. I could do 2 days work ok and give up JSA then do a rapid reclaim on day 3 and get payment 10 days later. I've also tried working 3 days a week and giving up JSA but got ill in week 2 so went back to JSA no trouble. I felt that ESA would not have been so easy, although it is meant to be but in practice isn't.

 

I am helping a friend who's ESA was turned down (he has schizophrenia and is fully supported by his GP etc) and has been waiting on no money since Feb for a decision (late appeal). He has now claimed JSA in desperation. So I have no faith in ESA.

[RaeUK]

Interesting post, terrypc. I don't think I could do what you are doing. ESA seems to be a bit of an anomoly that hasn't quite sorted itself out yet. (Touch wood) I haven't had a problem, per se, with it although I have effectively been on the assessment rate since November 2009. I've gone through two Atosh assessments and two failed appeal Tribunals and am currently heading towards my third consecutive claim. (I say 'heading' simply because there appears to be a backlog at the Tribunal Service. The DWP are still waiting official confirmation I failed my last Tribunal early May). But I will contend that I am capable of some work it's just that I am very limited in what that work can be. As an example, this year I've had the equivalant of 60 working days off sick. No employer in their right mind would employ me on that record. And - from what I've read - it would be outside of the JSA's sick 'leave' quota. By a long chalk. My goal is to work for myself. All I need is a little help and support ...

Rae

[terrypc]

Same here Rae! I feel I'm ripe for working my own business but now seems the worst time to start up an enterprise and I just can't get my head round tax/NI/accounts etc. - its an alien world! All I'm good for seems to be the public sector work that made me ill! I'm still passionate about it unfortunately.

 

ESA must cost so much to administer! All those appeals etc and often sick notes get lost by the DWP. I'm happy to take my chances with the local jobcentre staff than Atos doctors! My jobcentre are ok and offer me 16 hrs a week jobs which I happily apply for on the off chance an employer might be feeling carefree that day!

[RaeUK]

I wish you all the best with that, it really does come down to the quality of staff at the JobCentre / DWP. The one thing I'm interested in is the Permitted Work Scheme (I may not have the title quite right) that is available on ESA. That allows you to work up to 16 hours per week and earn (in the region of) £90 per week with no loss of benefits. That goes on for 1 year. Self-employed, that is nett turnover not gross. So it means you can say 'right, I'm going to give this my best shot' and have a years safety net to see if you can make it work and sustain it...

[terrypc]

Yeah Rae, have a crack at it. I've never heard of anyone successfully being under the Permitted Work rules ok though and was advised by benefit advisors not to just incase they say you are capable of work and migrate you onto JSA. It's a catch 22 or just a catch in my opinion.

[Nystagmite]

Isn't the point of permitted work to see if you can work, instead of being chucked into the deep end?

[leemack]

I opted for JSA in the same circumstance as I did not want to go through the ESA nightmare hoops of fire to get any money! I also wanted to do some work and this was more flexible on JSA I found. I could do 2 days work ok and give up JSA then do a rapid reclaim on day 3 and get payment 10 days later. I've also tried working 3 days a week and giving up JSA but got ill in week 2 so went back to JSA no trouble. I felt that ESA would not have been so easy, although it is meant to be but in practice isn't.

 

I am helping a friend who's ESA was turned down (he has schizophrenia and is fully supported by his GP etc) and has been waiting on no money since Feb for a decision (late appeal). He has now claimed JSA in desperation. So I have no faith in ESA.

 

If the appeal has been accepted ESA is paid on appeal as long as med certs are provided. If he's provided the med certs chase up payment - he's due some money.

[terrypc]

They had given him £200 recently and said repeatedly that the claim is "clerical". Despite letters, calls etc they cannot say when the DM will reach a decision. Their screens show the claim as closed. He can't take anymore of it and has given up against my advice.

[leemack]

They had given him £200 recently and said repeatedly that the claim is "clerical". Despite letters, calls etc they cannot say when the DM will reach a decision. Their screens show the claim as closed. He can't take anymore of it and has given up against my advice.

 

The person he speaks to on the phone knows nothing about his case. They look at the info on the screen, which all too often will just say the case is closed without saying it is clerical. Only a decision maker can give him any info in a clerical case - ask the person who answers the call to arrange for a decision maker call back regarding his clerical claim. Most payment issues are due to med cert issues. The reality is that even though he's now claimed Jsa, he's due a substantial backpayment still on the ESA claim - this is money he is owed.

[terrypc]

I know Leemack but he won't have any of it. I drafted a letter for him to sign of complaint about the way he has been not kept informed, long delays (they lost a sick note and he had to get another one) and other problems (like not phoning him back on time) and he wouldn't sign it and has just had enough and feels better with JSA (as he feels not labelled as "sick" anymore). Terrible stigmatism of claiming sickness benefits some people hold onto especially as he was a mental health nurse before getting ill.

[leemack]

I know Leemack but he won't have any of it. I drafted a letter for him to sign of complaint about the way he has been not kept informed, long delays (they lost a sick note and he had to get another one) and other problems (like not phoning him back on time) and he wouldn't sign it and has just had enough and feels better with JSA (as he feels not labelled as "sick" anymore). Terrible stigmatism of claiming sickness benefits some people hold onto especially as he was a mental health nurse before getting ill.

 

Yep this an area where those with mental health issues are doubly discriminated against. Firstly the Atos process does not treat them fairly, and the when they fail the process, or things go wrong in the process (or both), they are much less likely to use the appeals or complaints process, or get any problems sorted out.

 

The number or people I had referred when I did outreach at the community mental health team was unbelievable - and a good proportion had let benefit issues fester as they couldn't cope with dealing with it themselves.

 

And all the while the Tories remove help and support for these people that need the most help - including the service I used to work for.

[terrypc]

Same here Leemack. I can't tolerate the injustices anymore and the often consequential loss of life I've seen over this sort of thing. And everyone throws blame at everyone else and not at the people at the top making money directly out of the misery caused (Atos and govt pals for example).

[RaeUK]

Indeed it is! But the overlying drive is to get people off benefits despite their GP's evidence!

 

I'm not so sure, terrypc. That said, I suspect it's open to interpretation. I feel Nystagmite is right. I was lucky in having an excellent Pathways Advisor for a year and a half. (Haven't met my new one yet so can't comment further). She was quite adament that there was no way on earth I would ever meet the criteria for JSA and, should I feel that was the route for me, then it would just make an already debilitating condition worse.

We worked well together and went through what options I had if I was to continue my determination to get off benefits somehow. Not surprisingly, the options are quite few. But doable. We discussed the Permitted Work Scheme to a good degree. As I understand it, it gives somebody the opportunity to try some form of part-time work to see if they are capable of doing it continually, whilst at the same time, allowing greater financial freedom and benefits support. If, after the maximum 12 month limit (or at any time before), it isn't the right thing then you simply continue with ESA. No catch.

The crazy part is that, as long as I keep failing to qualify for full ESA, then in order to take part in Permitted Work I must continue to prove I am unfit for work by supplying a med cert.

Surely there's another way. I feel like I'm stuck in the middle of two types of benefit neither of which is genuinely a 100% fit.

Rae

[bbest]

Oooooh Reading this thread makes me very scared!

I have been on JSA for a year now looking for work, however some physical symptoms that developed such as IBS constant flare up's, depression, panic attacks, anxiety, sweating, shaking and more have caused me immense problems which I now have to soon see a psychiatrist and support workers etc.

 

I am almost acrophobic because I get brain fog, step out in front of cars without realizing I am in the road etc., its becoming more difficult to search for work but I do still complete what is required of me but now am absolutely terrified because of the new work program.

I attended the program as I have to with the best coping strategies I could muster and wrote down everything discussed at the interview but it was obvious despite my professional background he wanted to try and make me accept anything. To be honest in a normal world for me where I have strength and presence of mind I would simply accept the status quo and go along with almost anything until I could get back into paid work.

Now I am terrified on a daily basis having nightmares about going out, not coping, being somewhere a long time and needing the loo etc., a brief discussion with my doctor regards all this going on and he stated he would be prepared to provide me with a sick note whilst I receive my treatments and therapy etc. but looking at what people are saying on this thread and the stress it is causing everyone I am afraid to go this route too as if my money gets stopped I will have no food and nowhere to live if my miniscule benefits are stopped.

I feel so stuck in the middle not really knowing which course to take and its making me even more ill with the worry of it all.

Regards

bb

[seen this before]

i have made a doctors appointment in regards to signing off and will ask the gp to do so,the stress of this work programme is really to much to deal with.its the job centres role to assist people not controversial private companies that are profit motivated.

 

staying on jsa when enough is enough is far more damaging to health through anxiety and the prospects of work slip further and further away in the process.

[bbest]

I agree I think I will speak to my doctor again as he has already offered but I did not want to at the time, but my stress and anxiety are through the roof right now and this is certainly not healing in any way. let me know how it goes for you. xx