XXXXXXXXXX – Rossendales

[iaintw]

related to enquiry

I live in North East Lincolnshire and read your posts.

 

In my council that their have the right to chase you up not paying your council tax know as *Gone Away*

in your letters some of them are threaten from yourself to them. thats why their consulted their legal department for slander against you.

try to understand North East Lincolnshire council point of view.

 

If you got problems paying your council tax try to do a payment plan with them

[brassnecked]

related to enquiry

I live in North East Lincolnshire and read your posts.

 

In my council that their have the right to chase you up not paying your council tax know as *Gone Away*

in your letters some of them are threaten from yourself to them. thats why their consulted their legal department for slander against you.

try to understand North East Lincolnshire council point of view.

 

If you got problems paying your council tax try to do a payment plan with them

 

Outlawa HAD paid his council tax, but the council made a mistake and allocated the payments to an INCORRECT ACCOUNT. They then took him to court for a Liability Order, and, passed it to bailiffs, who then added a few irregular fees on top, all for money he didn't actually owe.

 

I don't know about you but I would be equally annoyed. What compounded, the situation and made it worse was that when they found out, they didn't fess up, apologise and remove the bailiff fees, they just stopped enforcement, said nothing and left outlawa in limbo.

No doubt outlawa will be back to answer soon.

[outlawla]

North East Lincolnshire Council

Finance Department

North East Lincolnshire

DN35 8LN

 

 

02/01/12

 

 

Dear Head of Income & Payments Service

 

Re: Council representatives and documentary evidence – Proof of Authority

 

 

In the case of council tax liability hearings at Grimsby Magistrates’ court would you please specify those members of the council who are properly authorised to take part in these proceedings? Could you also send copies of any documentation required by the Magistrate’s court as proof these council members are properly authorised, as per Section 223 of the Local Government Act 1972 (Appearance of local authorities in legal proceedings).

 

I believe Magistrates in these hearings accept computer printouts provided by council members as evidence for prosecution. This evidence though, is only permissible if supported by a certificate in accordance with Regulation 53 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 or Section 102 (13A) (Admissibility of evidence) of the Local Government Finance Act 1992.

 

Legislation specifies that such a certificate must be signed by a person occupying a responsible position in relation to the operation of the computer. Please also would you specify those members, or which individual of the council is/are properly authorised to sign this certificate and send to me a sample copy of this document.

 

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Outlawla

 

 

P.S

 

related to enquiry

I live in North East Lincolnshire and read your posts.

 

In my council that their have the right to chase you up not paying your council tax know as *Gone Away*

in your letters some of them are threaten from yourself to them. thats why their consulted their legal department for slander against you.

try to understand North East Lincolnshire council point of view.

 

If you got problems paying your council tax try to do a payment plan with them

 

I don't see why I should respond to someone who has obviously commented on something they've not understood, but what the hell....

 

What is the council doing if not systematically threatening its residents? Which is worse? Words on a piece of paper, or the actual physical threat of the council's thugs unlawfully demanding money?

[brassnecked]

 

I don't see why I should respond to someone who has obviously commented on something they've not understood, but what the hell....

 

What is the council doing if not systematically threatening its residents? Which is worse? Words on a piece of paper, or the actual physical threat of the council's thugs unlawfully demanding money?

 

The thugs demanding the money, BTW the wording of that post reminded me of an old song parody by Rover "Window the in doggie that is much how" it goes on "tail waggly the with one the"woof woof!

[oopsadaisy]

Hi another Rossendale victim here. Please can somebody help. Had him here again this morning (never let him in) he say's I've got until Tuesday to pay £433. Told him no way could I do that, so got usual waffle, take goods etc. Anyway after reading many threads on here I am going to take the route of paying council direct, one question regarding paying the bailiff fees....... how do I go about that? They're over £200! Charged me £110 for coming in a van!! Many thanks.

[hallowitch]

Hi another Rossendale victim here. Please can somebody help. Had him here again this morning (never let him in) he say's I've got until Tuesday to pay £433. Told him no way could I do that, so got usual waffle, take goods etc. Anyway after reading many threads on here I am going to take the route of paying council direct, one question regarding paying the bailiff fees....... how do I go about that? They're over £200! Charged me £110 for coming in a van!! Many thanks.

 

oopsadaisy

 

can you please start a new thread use this link

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/newthread.php?do=newthread&f=168

 

they can only charge a van fee if they have previously levied your goods

[outlawla]

Following on from complaint to Magistrates' court post #43

 

Grimsby Magistrates' Court

Victoria Street

Grimsby

North East Lincolnshire

DN31 1NH

 

 

04/01/12

 

Dear Legal Team Manager

 

 

Re: Complaint made to Grimsby Magistrates’ court 16 December 2011

 

 

Thank you for your 23 December 2011 letter. I notice you have not specifically addressed my complaint. Instead you have listed three stages of a procedure, which if correctly followed, would be lawful and transparent.

 

However, the main body of my complaint dealt with the incorrectly followed procedure, hence the reference to "Regina v. Brentford Justices, Ex parte Catlin [1975] QB 455" and the case law from this which states “...if a magistrate authorises the issue of a summons without having applied his mind to the information then he is guilty of dereliction of duty...”

 

If you revisit my complaint letter of December 16, you will notice that NELC had put in writing that the council tax it pursued through the court had been paid. A point already explained in a letter to the council, and subsequently stated at the court hearing.

 

If my case highlights the need for such bulk processing to be brought into question, the following data obtained from the council, provides overwhelming evidence there is dereliction of duty.

 

The council have obtained from the court the following Liability Orders over the last 5 years, incidentally the Chief Executive of NELC has stated:

 

“The council's collection team checks the accuracy of all accounts before passing them to the enforcement stage. Accounts are only progressed to enforcement for amounts over £50.” From the same data source, it was determined that a total of 3,528 Liability Orders were issued for an initial debt of £50 or less.

 

· 1,387 Liability Orders issued for outstanding debt of less than £25

· 981 for less than £20

· 544 “ “ “ £15

· 82 “ “ “ £10

· 45 “ “ “ £5

· 12 “ “ “ £1

 

3 Liability Orders issued for debt of only 1p

The first item you listed in the three stage procedure, which you termed “lawful and transparent”, is:

1. “The council delivers a complaint list to the court.”

I believe the complaint list will exist in the form of a computer printout. It is also my understanding that Magistrates accept computer printouts as evidence only if supported by a certificate in accordance with Regulation 53 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992 or Section 102 (13A) (Admissibility of evidence) of the Local Government Finance Act 1992.

 

Legislation specifies that such a certificate must be signed by a person occupying a responsible position in relation to the operation of the computer.

 

Would you please verify that this procedure is carried out and if so specify which council member was properly authorised to sign this certificate in relation to the council tax liability hearing of June 2, 2011 and send to me a copy of this document?

 

Secondly you state:

2. “This list is reviewed by a legal adviser, under powers delegated by the Justices' Clerk, who issues the summonses.”

In light of the ‘rather incriminating’ aforementioned liability order data, it seems logical to ask what the review process actually entails, and who is delegated the responsibility. It has already been mentioned the council's collection team should not progress accounts to enforcement for amounts under £50, but there is presumably – under Council Tax law – a minimum to which taking court action is lawful?

 

I think at best, the review process of the complaints laid by the council, would amount to the delegated court member’s momentary glance at the document followed by the downward motion of his rubber stamp holding arm, then repeated for however many thousand are required by the council. However, I suspect more realistically just one signed master copy would be supplied to the council which could then be reproduced for however many thousand are needed.

 

For your information I have already brought these issues to the attention of Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service – Complaint Handling Team, and will shortly be presenting (on approval by my MP) a complaint to the Parliamentary Ombudsman.

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Outlawla

Edited January 4, 2012 by outlawla

[brassnecked]

We will watch and wait with baited breath on this one Outlawa, you have them on the rack, and they are trying to avoid talking.

[outlawla]

North East Lincolnshire council's response to formal complaint Post #32, received today.

 

 

North East Lincolnshire council

Civic Offices, Knoll Street

Cleethorpes

North East Lincolnshire

 

 

23rd December 2011

 

 

Dear Mr Outlawla

 

 

Ref:- 550xxxxxxx

 

Thank you for your letter dated 13th December 2011. I have noted its contents.

 

You specifically ask about the £24.50 bailiff fee. It was the council's decision to withdraw your account from the bailiffs. For this reason we will not be pursuing you for this fee.

 

You ask about the £70 summons fee. You failed to make your council tax payments in accordance with your bill. You did not quote the correct account number on your payments and this precipitated all subsequent actions. The £70 summons fee has been correctly incurred and we await its payment. If you are unable to pay this in a lump sum please contact our Recovery section to discuss payment in instalments.

 

Yours faithfully

 

Xxxx Xxxxx

Court Enforcement Manager

[brassnecked]

North East Lincolnshire council's response to formal complaint Post #32, received today.

 

If they gave you the incorrect payment reference then the muppets are still wrong imho

[outlawla]

brassnecked,

 

This is their response to a formal complaint. They have no formal reference on their letter and only addressed around 2% of the issues I raised. This is how they deal with this kind of thing. They pick out the bits they can or want to address, while ignoring everything else.

[brassnecked]

brassnecked,

 

This is their response to a formal complaint. They have no formal reference on their letter and only addressed around 2% of the issues I raised. This is how they deal with this kind of thing. They pick out the bits they can or want to address, while ignoring everything else.

 

seems like the culture of misfeance in public office is firmly entrenched in NELC then outlawa. When will these people learn?

[outlawla]

Revenues & Benefits Services

Civic Offices Knoll Street

Cleethorpes

North East Lincolnshire

 

06/01/12

 

Dear Court Enforcement Manager

 

Re: Council tax Ref: 550xxxxxxx – Formal Complaint

 

Thank you for your letter dated 23 December 2011. I’m aware of the two week interval, from the date on your correspondence and that which I received it (January 6, 2012).

 

Am I correct in assuming the issues you have addressed are being dealt with in addition and separately to the council’s response I anticipate in relation to my Formal complaint? I ask this as your correspondence has no “formal” reference and only a fraction of the issues I raised have been addressed.

 

I note from your correspondence that you await payment of the £70 summons fee. I stated in my formal complaint letter of 13 December 2011 that “I had paid in accordance with Part 5 and Schedule 1 of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations”, I can’t be held responsible – by being penalised – for the council’s inadequate automated system used in its collection of council tax.

 

Furthermore, after receiving the threat of court action for non-payment, I had written, advising the authority my payment had been made well before the date it was due. The council chose to ignore it.

 

It being your intention to collect this £70 fee, in hindsight you were probably premature in calling off your enforcement firm Rossendales, as I have no intention of forwarding this payment to the council. Also, should you decide to reinstate Rossendales to collect this fee, they will receive no cooperation from me. In fact I would hold North East Lincolnshire council wholly responsible for instructing an enforcement firm it clearly knows, carries out actions fraudulently on its behalf. You may be aware I have evidence in writing (Complaint.doc) from the council that a Rossendale’s bailiff collecting on its behalf, added fraudulent fees and the council/Rossendales was backed into a corner to cease his employment.

 

If, as you state, I had correctly incurred this summons fee, I would not be liable for the entire £70 cost, owing to the Council Tax Regulations stating in R34(5)(b) and (7)(b) that this should be “a sum of an amount equal to the costs reasonably incurred by the authority” and is incurred at each of the two stages independently. The council, in a bid to generate more income from these penalties, unlawfully combined both charges into one as detailed in its 2011 budget proposals. It doesn’t state that these penalties can be increased to create an additional revenue stream as the Council is doing by listing 'debt recovery' as 'income'. The council has clearly raised the penalties and combined them to plug a hole in its finances.

 

The council’s response to a FOI request has revealed that one of the expenses incurred by the council which make up the £70 Summons fee includes money paid to the Magistrates' court for the use of its premises. This should relate to liability order costs, R34(7)(b) of the Council Tax Regulations. Clearly by charging residents both fees at the summons stage, the council is in breach of these regulations. Not only is the council in breach of the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1992, it is unfairly penalising residents incurring the £70 Summons fee who actually pay off all their debt prior to a court hearing.

 

Perhaps it may be worth your while to determine a realistic cost for the summons and liability order penalties – incurred separately in accordance with the R34 of the Council Tax regulations – in case the need should arise in the future, I incur such penalties.

 

I have requested that the council apply to the Magistrates’ court under R5(2) of the Council Tax Regulations SI 2004/927 to have all trace of this order delated from the record. For your information this was sent to the head of Income & Payments Service in a letter dated 31 December 2011.

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Outlawla

Edited January 7, 2012 by outlawla

[brassnecked]

These officers are playing way out of their league, either that or they hope to wear you down, but Ithink they are on a loser there. Make 'em have it outlawa, Eventually someone at that council will have a Serpico moment and tip the worms all over the counter for all to see.

[outlawla]

These officers are playing way out of their league, either that or they hope to wear you down, but Ithink they are on a loser there. Make 'em have it outlawa, Eventually someone at that council will have a Serpico moment and tip the worms all over the counter for all to see.

 

I'm at a complete loss as to why these people just can't accept when they've [EDIT]ed-up. They've most probably got a gun to their head to swear black is white; and endanger losing their positions if they risk causing any embarrassement to the authority by coming clean.

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

I find the trouble with most bailiffs is

that they believe that their ''powers''

are a god given right and not just

authority vested in them by a court.

I have witnessed a bailiff arguing with

a judge about their''rights''.

[brassnecked]

Shame the judge didn't send the bailiff down for contempt them Brigadier, or did he?

[BRIGADIER2JCS]

Hearing Feb 2012 before Judge in respect

of withdrawing certification.

[brassnecked]

Hearing Feb 2012 before Judge in respect

of withdrawing certification.

Thanks Brigadier, if a bailiff acts according to the law and regulations, then there is no complaint, the one you mentioned deserves to lose his certificate.

[outlawla]

Grimsby Magistrates Court

Victoria Street

Grimsby

North East Lincolnshire

DN31 1NH

 

The Clerk to the Justices

Grimsby Magistrates’ Court

 

09/12/2012

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam

 

 

Council Ref: 550xxxxxxx

 

I am writing to request that you supply all information regarding the summons and liability order relating to the above council tax reference. I have enclosed a copy of the document sent to me which summoned me to appear on Thursday 2nd June 2011 for your reference.

 

The summons document appears not to have originated from the Court, but more likely the council. It is my opinion that by allowing North East Lincolnshire council to carry out duties which should be undertaken by the Magistrates’ court it can not be performing its judicial function of deciding whether to issue summonses.

 

The ending comment on the summons states “if a Liability Order is granted the Council will apply for further costs of £25.00 being reasonable costs incurred.”

 

This £25 costs is now obsolete. The council, in a bid to increase revenue from these penalties, significantly hiked the overall costs associated with court action. It also combined the two fees with the taxpayer incurring effectively both fees prematurely at the summons stage. This is unlawful in itself, something of which I won’t go into now, but I don’t have to explain why the council pulled this stunt. I will however say that the court should have been aware of what was going on as I believe the council must have the Court’s permission to set these penalty fees.

 

The fact this blunder had appeared on the summons document without neither the council nor Magistrates’ court noticing, demonstrates that the court is guilty of dereliction of duty by authorising the issue of a summons without having applied its mind to the information laid.

 

I have a final request for information that relates to the reasonable “costs incurred”. For the purposes of council tax summonses and liability orders; what is the cost to the council per resident affected by these fees, and what is an average number of these processed at one time?

 

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Outlawla

Edited January 9, 2012 by outlawla

[outlawla]

Council's reply to letters Posts #44, #48 and #53

 

North East Lincolnshire Council

Finance Department

North East Lincolnshire

DN35 8LN

 

16th January 2012

 

Dear Mr Outlawla

 

I am writing with reference to your 3 letters, received 5th January 2012, and your 'e' mail received 3rd January 2012.

 

Quashing of Liability Order and offer of compensation

 

I have reviewed the actions taken on your account and it is clear that payments were not made to the correct Council Tax account number or in accordance with the instalments shown on your Council Tax bill.

 

Regulation 34 (6) of the Council Tax Administration and Enforcement Regulations states "the court shall make the order if it is satisfied that the sum has become payable by the defendant". At the time the council was unable to prove to the Court that you had made payments. You were asked to assist the council in identifying your payments by providing further information on more than one occasion which you refused to do. As you are aware, the council has since located your payments which had been made against incorrect account numbers.

 

On this occasion I have agreed to withdraw the court costs and apply to the Magistrates Court to have the liability order quashed. A copy of our letter to the Magistrates Court will be issued to you in due course. However, I am not prepared to offer compensation. This matter would have been resolved at a much earlier stage if you had assisted the council in locating the payments when first requested, and the council has incurred unnecessary costs in terms of staff time spent locating the payments.

 

I understand that you have paid the final amount due; you will receive an amended bill confirming that the balance is 'nil' following the withdrawal of court costs. Please ensure that you quote the Council Tax account reference number shown on your bill in any correspondence and when making payments in future.

 

Distress for Rent Rules Form 5 complaint to the County Court

 

North East Lincolnshire Council is aware of the procedures you outline within your letter.

 

Before taking such action the council must take into consideration all factors surrounding the Bailiff and his conduct, including whether a complaint is fully upheld and whether there is evidence of repeated breaches of conduct.

 

After dealing with your complaint it was decided on this occasion that Rossendales as his employer were best placed to deal with the matter.

 

Your original complaint has been closed and North East Lincolnshire Council does not intend to make representations at the County Court under Regulation 8 of the Distress for Rent Rules 1988.

 

If you wish to pursue this course of action further then you are within your rights to contact the County Court yourself, where you can put your complaint forward.

 

Council Representation and Documentary Evidence - Proof of Authority

 

In answer to your queries I can confirm:

 

Authorised Officers

 

I have enclosed the authorisation certificates signed by Xxxx Xxxx, Monitoring Officer, for the members of staff below:-

 

- Council's court enforcement manager (1)

- Debt recovery manager

- Court enforcement manager (2)

 

Certificate in Accordance signatories

 

Signatories for the Certificate in Accordance are:-

 

- Systems and Reconciliation Manager

- Income and Collection Manager

- Head of Service

 

I enclose a blank copy of the Certificate in Accordance for your perusal.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Xxxxxx Xxxxxx

Head of Income & Payments

Edited January 18, 2012 by outlawla

[outlawla]

Email to Council’s Court Enforcement Manager

 

17 December 2012

 

Dear Mr Xxxxx

 

I sent a formal complaint to the council on 13 December 2011. I received no formal acknowledgement of this. However, you must have read the letter as you selected one aspect of the complaint to address in your 23 December 2011 letter regarding court and bailiff fees.

 

I wrote again explaining the situation on 6 January 2012. I have had no reply to this letter, nor have I received a reply/acknowledgement to the Formal complaint.

 

Please indicate when I'm likely to get a response.

 

My letters are attached for your information.

 

Yours sincerely

 

Outlawla

 

 

Council's Reply

 

17/01/2012

 

Dear Outlawla,

 

Re: Council tax Ref: 550xxxxxxx - Formal Complaint

 

Thank You for your letter dated 6 January 2012 and your subsequent emails of the 17th January the content of which have been noted.

 

In the first instance I would refer you to Mrs Xxxxx Letter dated 16 January 2012

 

I can make you aware that North East Lincolnshire Council WILL NOT be raising your concerns as a formal complaint and WILL NOT enter into further dialogue regarding the issues you have raised.

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Court Enforcement Manager

[outlawla]

North East Lincolnshire Council

Finance Department

Civic Offices Knoll Street

Cleethorpes

 

17/01/2012

 

Dear Mr Outlawla,

 

As per Mrs Xxxxx's Letter dated 16 January 2012 please see enclosed a copy of the application made to the Grimsby Magistrates Court regarding the Liability Order Granted on the 2nd June 2011.

 

If you have any further queries regarding this matter please do not hesitate to contact me on 01472 323xxx

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Court Enforcement Manager

 

 

North East Lincolnshire Council

Finance Department

Civic Offices Knoll Street

Cleethorpes

 

16 January 2012

 

 

Grimsby Magistrates Court

Grimsby & Cleethropes Magistrates Court

Grimsby

N E Lincs

 

Dear Sirs,

 

Pursuant to The Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 2004, Statutory instrument 2004/927 Regulation 5(2).

 

North East Lincolnshire Council applies to have the below Liability Order quashed by the GrimsbyMagistrates Court.

Liability Hearing 2nd June 2011

Mr Outlawla

Xx Xxxx Xxxxx

Grimsby

DN3x xxx

 

Amount Liability Order Granted for £816.49

A copy of the signed front page and the page within the liability list has been included for your records.

 

I include a copy of the legislation under which the application is made.

 

Should you require any further information do not hesitate to contact me direct on 01472 323xxx.

 

Yours faithfully,

 

Mr X Xxxxxx

Court Enforcement Manager

Edited January 19, 2012 by outlawla

[brassnecked]

:cheer2: Now Mr bailiff try and claim a fee

[hallowitch]

North East Lincolnshire Council

Finance Department

Civic Offices Knoll Street

Cleethorpes

 

17/01/2012

 

Dear Mr Outlawla,

 

As per Mrs Xxxxx's Letter dated 16 January 2012 please see enclosed a copy of the application made to the Grimsby Magistrates Court regarding the Liability Order Granted on the 2nd June 2011.

 

If you have any further queries regarding this matter please do not hesitate to contact me on 01472 323xxx

 

Yours sincerely,

 

Court Enforcement Manager

 

 

 

Mr Outlawla Full respect to you