Imminent Charge on property Lloyds bank Business Loan pse help someone...

[caro]

Could we go Freedom Of Information Act?

 

No that is information about public authorites. Totally different.

 

If you're thinking of making a F&F offer I suggest that you write with the offer, and if they accept they need to withdraw the claim. If they reject the offer at least you can prove you've tried to sort this out which would look good for you in court.

 

Are you in a position to make the offer before you need to defend though?

[Muffintop]

Maybe we might be able to borrow the money in the interim to selling the car... but how do I now withdraw my request to defend the case.. my n244 which has been received. I can then defend what I stand a good chance of winning the co

[DonkeyB]

Spent an hour getting free legal opinion. Monday morning. If you can raise money other ways, raise a little for some proper legal! Cover your options. IMO.

[The Mould]

Maybe we might be able to borrow the money in the interim to selling the car... but how do I now withdraw my request to defend the case.. my n244 which has been received. I can then defend what I stand a good chance of winning the co

 

Good evening Muffintop

 

If you do withdraw your request to defend, you will save on costs in the case applied for by the claimant, your husband did previously offer to repay the debt at a rate of £250 per month, said offer is in your husbands favour as it shows his reasonable conduct.

 

If your husband admits liability, then he can put his said offer to repay into court, the claimant might reject said offer and request a forthwith Judgment award from the court. If the claimant seeks a charge on your property then this would be a separate action against you that you and your husband will need to defend,object and resist.

 

How much of a lump sum can you raise for a Full and Final? I see your £10k, but the claimant is likely to reject such an offer in Full and Final since he has a guarantee agreement signed by your husband, he might be more likely to consider a £15k settlement offer.

 

Is your husband able to speak with the administrators and request release of copies of the paperwork relating to the loan/overdraft?

 

Try not to panic, deal with this case first, then (if) a charging order is sought by the claimant, deal with that case at that time, concentrate on this claim, you will be alright so please do not worry.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

[caro]

I agree that legal advice would be a good idea. In the meantime have you read sequenci's info on charging orders?

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?203298

 

There's info on full and final payments here.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/entry.php?202-Full-and-final-settlements-A-guide-for-the-rest-of-us

[Muffintop]

Thankyou Mould.. it can wear you right down when you have more than one legal issue to contend with and this is way out of my depth.

thankyou too Donkey, I spent a week ringing solicitors no one will give us free legal advice prob due to our jobs, wage house having equity, the ones that would even consider seeings us wanted 350 plus an hour, or one solicitor 1800 on account. I dont want to flog a dead horse,, excuse the pun Donkey, I think were stuffed with the guarantee and indemnity thing, (hopefully someone reading this thread will think before they sign one in future) we may be able to raise 15k and I can tell husband this is more of a realistic figure (expecially if there is ppi to reclaim) He can speak to administrators on tuesday morning when were back at work and request paperwork and gives them the heads up on the possible ppi. We can also negotiate with the otherside Tuesday although its confusing as theres the bank who are the claimants and then the solicitors who are like rotweillers.

 

Most of all husband did admit the debt.. I got involved and clouded the issue by asking to be able to put a defense and now im saying hold on Iv changed my mind..

How do I advise court that we have decided not to defend the case afterall

[caro]

I would be inclined to stick at £10k. Plenty of people have had offers of under 50% accepted, and if it's not accepted you may have room for negotiation.

 

An alternative might be to ask for the same kind of agreement that cym got which prevented a CO, which I linked above.

[The Mould]

Thankyou Mould.. it can wear you right down when you have more than one legal issue to contend with and this is way out of my depth.

thankyou too Donkey, I spent a week ringing solicitors no one will give us free legal advice prob due to our jobs, wage house having equity, the ones that would even consider seeings us wanted 350 plus an hour, or one solicitor 1800 on account. I dont want to flog a dead horse,, excuse the pun Donkey, I think were stuffed with the guarantee and indemnity thing, (hopefully someone reading this thread will think before they sign one in future) we may be able to raise 15k and I can tell husband this is more of a realistic figure (expecially if there is ppi to reclaim) He can speak to administrators on tuesday morning when were back at work and request paperwork and gives them the heads up on the possible ppi. We can also negotiate with the otherside Tuesday although its confusing as theres the bank who are the claimants and then the solicitors who are like rotweillers.

 

Most of all husband did admit the debt.. I got involved and clouded the issue by asking to be able to put a defense and now im saying hold on Iv changed my mind..

How do I advise court that we have decided not to defend the case afterall

 

Hello again Muffintop

 

I am glad you are still on-line (with it being so late), I just went for a cup of tea and a smoke (on of my favorite hobbies) and I shall go for another cuppa and smoke in 10 mins, you see, when something is bugging me on a case, I simply cannot rest properly at all until I get to the root of the problem/issues I have with the circumstances that are reported, there are a few things about your case that are bugging me right now and shortly (not tonight) I shall re-read through your case thoroughly and add further to my opinion/advice.

 

I do understand how worried you and your husband must be about this matter, however, I would say do not let this worry cause you to be impatient (no offence intended), do not throw the towel in just yet Muffintop.

 

The claimant's conduct is a cause for concern, what I mean is, with your husband's admission, the claimant sought to have all manner of conditions imposed upon you both, he clearly requested your agreement to a charging order, he must succeed with his claim first and then depending upon the circumstances thereafter his success, he must then apply to the court for permission for a charge upon your property.

 

It appears that since you made said application to withdraw admission and instead, defend against the action, the claimant informs you that he has obtained a statement from the manager who secured said guarantee from your husband, the claimant is clearly putting you under pressure, trying to frighten you.

 

I think you ought to wait and inspect the statement made by said manager and digest his version of events, further, you say that neither you nor your husband recognize the witness named in said guarantee, so you need to establish said witness's identity, you and your husband also know that undue influence was exercised by said manager to secure said guarantee, so you do have an argument against the same.

 

Is the loan agreement mentioned in the Particulars of Claim? If yes, have you sent a CPR 31.14 - 31.15 to the claimant seeking disclosure of copies of the documents he mentions in his POC's?

 

Be patient, don't allow the claimant/his Solicitors to intimidate you.

 

Come back, Roger - over.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

[The Mould]

I would be inclined to stick at £10k. Plenty of people have had offers of under 50% accepted, and if it's not accepted you may have room for negotiation.

 

An alternative might be to ask for the same kind of agreement that cym got which prevented a CO, which I linked above.

 

Yes that is true, however, the claimant has a guarantee agreement against Muffintop's husband and therefore he is not going to forgo £13k+ in return for £10k, he might, however, be willing to consider £15k as it is a far more realistic settlement offer. That is of course if there is no defence to be raised against the claim.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

[Guest]

HI M

The way it works is this,( and please feel free to correct me anyone who is reading this it is late and I am tired)Ring your court , first thing Monday and tell them what you want to do they will tell you what forms you need, the hearing will still be held at your local court. You could say you require more time(another form, you could look it up, but I would let them do it), you could say you need in order to work out your finances since the business went bankrupt as you do not yet Know what repayments you will be able to afford.

. I can’t imagine the charges will be that big if you don’t contest. When the judge makes his decision he will either say to pay forthwith or he will agree to your offer, if he says forthwith then the bank may immediately ask for an interim charge placed on your property. You will then be given a date for the hearing regarding the actual charging order.

If it gets this far it, is no calamity it does not mean you have lost your house. You must attend the hearing. Now stop reading this an read Sequecies thread now he has a much better explanation of what goes on next than anything I can give you, but i repeat it is not the end of the world in fact it could to your advantage, if it is on your terms, read the blog if there is anything you do not understand ask and someone will come back to you

peter

paeter

[Guest]

Hello again Muffintop

 

I am glad you are still on-line (with it being so late), I just went for a cup of tea and a smoke (on of my favorite hobbies) and I shall go for another cuppa and smoke in 10 mins, you see, when something is bugging me on a case, I simply cannot rest properly at all until I get to the root of the problem/issues I have with the circumstances that are reported, there are a few things about your case that are bugging me right now and shortly (not tonight) I shall re-read through your case thoroughly and add further to my opinion/advice.

 

I do understand how worried you and your husband must be about this matter, however, I would say do not let this worry cause you to be impatient (no offence intended), do not throw the towel in just yet Muffintop.

 

The claimant's conduct is a cause for concern, what I mean is, with your husband's admission, the claimant sought to have all manner of conditions imposed upon you both, he clearly requested your agreement to a charging order, he must succeed with his claim first and then depending upon the circumstances thereafter his success, he must then apply to the court for permission for a charge upon your property.

 

It appears that since you made said application to withdraw admission and instead, defend against the action, the claimant informs you that he has obtained a statement from the manager who secured said guarantee from your husband, the claimant is clearly putting you under pressure, trying to frighten you.

 

I think you ought to wait and inspect the statement made by said manager and digest his version of events, further, you say that neither you nor your husband recognize the witness named in said guarantee, so you need to establish said witness's identity, you and your husband also know that undue influence was exercised by said manager to secure said guarantee, so you do have an argument against the same.

 

Is the loan agreement mentioned in the Particulars of Claim? If yes, have you sent a CPR 31.14 - 31.15 to the claimant seeking disclosure of copies of the documents he mentions in his POC's?

 

Be patient, don't allow the claimant/his Solicitors to intimidate you.

 

Come back, Roger - over.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

 

It is not a good idea to send CPR requests if you are not going to defend, or for that matter if your case is weak and it is just a fishing trip these have an imapct on costs if you loose.

I would you suggest make your mind up regarding if you want to defend or not based on the information you have read.

Peter

[The Mould]

Muffintop

 

I have just re-read the claimant's Particulars of claim, he makes mention of business loan, first overdraft, second overdraft and Guarantee Agreement.

 

He attached a copy of 1st O/D and a copy of the Guarantee Agreement to the claim, however, he did not attach a copy of the business loan agreement or a copy of 2nd O/D??

 

Claimant pleads (amongst other things) "In consideration for the claimant providing the company with financial facilities, on -/June, the Defendant entered into a guarantee (the Guarantee), limited to a principle amount of £".

 

According to your husband (as reported here), the manager did not give your husband any choice in the matter in respect of said Guarantee, in fact, your husband was 'hounded' by said manager and no official appointment was made with him in order to discuss said Guarantee, your husband was put under pressure to sign said Guarantee without being provided with any opportunity to acquaint himself with the terms and conditions thereof, let alone being given any chance to seek and take independent professional legal advice as to the same. Therefore, said pleading is a false statement made by the claimant.

 

Your case needs further investigation, as said, do not throw the towel in just yet.

 

Look at it this way Muffintop, worst case scenario is you defend and loose, you then owe claimant £23k plus costs in the region of £10k, your husband submits his offer to repay at a rate of £250 per month until debt is paid, as long as your husband does not default of said payment (£250) there will be no charging order.

 

Best case scenario, you defend based upon facts of this matter, Guarantee is HELD invalid, your husband's liabilities are discharged.

 

You need to inspect said manager's statement, you also require a copy of said business loan agreement etc.etc.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

[Guest]

Hi

I agree withCaro offer as little as you can, you can always increase the offer you cannot reagreementduse it.

 

Also the creditor can indeed place a charging order on your property befoire judgement, but of cours it would have to be with your permission which is what the creditor was trying to do.

Peter

[Guest]

Muffintop

 

I have just re-read the claimant's Particulars of claim, he makes mention of business loan, first overdraft, second overdraft and Guarantee Agreement.

 

He attached a copy of 1st O/D and a copy of the Guarantee Agreement to the claim, however, he did not attach a copy of the business loan agreement or a copy of 2nd O/D??

 

Claimant pleads (amongst other things) "In consideration for the claimant providing the company with financial facilities, on -/June, the Defendant entered into a guarantee (the Guarantee), limited to a principle amount of £".

 

According to your husband (as reported here), the manager did not give your husband any choice in the matter in respect of said Guarantee, in fact, your husband was 'hounded' by said manager and no official appointment was made with him in order to discuss said Guarantee, your husband was put under pressure to sign said Guarantee without being provided with any opportunity to acquaint himself with the terms and conditions thereof, let alone being given any chance to seek and take independent professional legal advice as to the same. Therefore, said pleading is a false statement made by the claimant.

 

Your case needs further investigation, as said, do not throw the towel in just yet.

 

Look at it this way Muffintop, worst case scenario is you defend and loose, you then owe claimant £23k plus costs in the region of £10k, your husband submits his offer to repay at a rate of £250 per month until debt is paid, as long as your husband does not default of said payment (£250) there will be no charging order.

 

Best case scenario, you defend based upon facts of this matter, Guarantee is HELD invalid, your husband's liabilities are discharged.

 

You need to inspect said manager's statement, you also require a copy of said business loan agreement etc.etc.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

 

That is not the worst case scenario.

The worst case scenario is the court decides on a forthwith judgement and places an interim oreder then they place a charging order then the creitor applies for a possetion order then m looses her house.

I have sen this happen, not often granted but it does happen, i would suggest this is kept in mind.

 

The odds of your liabiites being discharged are about 1000 to 1 in my estimataon, you may wonder why all the solicitors you visited didnt bite you hand off if the outlook was so rosey, think carefully.

 

Also we have been throught loan scenario apparently it was a bank overdraft not a loan.

 

Peter

Peter

[The Mould]

Muffintop

 

I wholly disagree with what Peter is saying.

 

Based upon your reports here, I believe you have a very strong and realistic prospect of succeeding with your defence on the grounds of class 2b Presumed undue influence - exceptional circumstances (Lloyds Bank v Bundy [1975] QB 326 Court of Appeal.

 

What was the relationship that your husband had with the bank's manager? How many years? The manager knew that your husband's business was in trouble and so he sought to secure interests for the bank, your husband was not given any opportunity to obtain independent legal advice, your husband did not enter into said guarantee freely/of his own accord, your husband was told "sign or else", you do have a defence, said guarantee is invalid, the conditions the claimant sought to impose (as posted on Pg 1) are a clue to the weakness of the claim, your husband does not need to prove said influence, the burden to prove that your husband entered into said guarantee freely and after being given a chance to take independent legal advice falls upon the claimant.

 

You will not lose your home (If and it is a big IF, the worst case scenario falls down upon you)

 

There [is] something very wrong with this claim and the claimant's conduct - RE: said conditions he insisted upon imposing (among other things).

 

The claimant pleads "business loan" in his statement of case (his particulars)!

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

[The Mould]

Further to the above,

 

Claimant does plead 'business loan', however, he seeks enforcement of said Guarantee.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

[The Mould]

That is not the worst case scenario.

The worst case scenario is the court decides on a forthwith judgement and places an interim oreder then they place a charging order then the creitor applies for a possetion order then m looses her house.

I have sen this happen, not often granted but it does happen, i would suggest this is kept in mind.

 

The odds of your liabiites being discharged are about 1000 to 1 in my estimataon, you may wonder why all the solicitors you visited didnt bite you hand off if the outlook was so rosey, think carefully.

 

Also we have been throught loan scenario apparently it was a bank overdraft not a loan.

 

Peter

Peter

 

Muffintop and husband cannot afford the services of independent professional Solicitors, hence, no legal rep willing to undertake instructions on this case.

 

Kind regards

 

The Mould

[Guest]

They are enforcing the guaratee on the loan.

They are entitled to do so. The arguments you have raise we have already been through and discarded as did the proffesional solicitors she consulted.

 

Peter

[caro]

It seems to me that if solicitors think they see a chance of a win they'll be rather more accommodating when it comes to waiting for payment. It's irrelevant really though so I do think it's important to look at all the pros and cons.

 

Frankly if your husband is willing and able to pay £250 a month I think the chances of a CO are not that good.

 

Is anything being paid at the moment?

[Guest]

It seems to me that if solicitors think they see a chance of a win they'll be rather more accommodating when it comes to waiting for payment. It's irrelevant really though so I do think it's important to look at all the pros and cons.

 

Frankly if your husband is willing and able to pay £250 a month I think the chances of a CO are not that good.

 

Is anything being paid at the moment?

 

When looking at issuing a charging order the court will take into consideration the actions of the debtor regarding the debt.

 

Peter

[caro]

Muffintop

Look at it this way Muffintop, worst case scenario is you defend and loose, you then owe claimant £23k plus costs in the region of £10k, your husband submits his offer to repay at a rate of £250 per month until debt is paid, as long as your husband does not default of said payment (£250) there will be no charging order.

 

Best case scenario, you defend based upon facts of this matter, Guarantee is HELD invalid, your husband's liabilities are discharged.

 

Kind regards

 

 

 

 

The Mould

 

Just noticed this. I can't help thinking this is a massive risk. Either paying for an extra 40 months if this happens, or even worse their is a CO because of the debt having increased by another £10k. Surely it has to be better to try and get the payment reduced. The OP has lost their business and livelihood, and don't need even more debt hanging round their necks.

 

Muffintop. I think you need to take a step back - look at all the advice - all the options, and then look at the pros and cons of what is best for you and yours. I think you have more than enough advice to take on board at the moment and suggest people step back for a while to allow you to digest it all.

[Muffintop]

thanks,, I know the right thing to do is withdraw defense and challenge the charging order. I do not want another 10k debt.

I will then challenge any charging order threat as this is something I feel more comfortable with.

I have decided to ring court Mon or Tues and ask how to withdraw defense and husband can speak to other side and see what their thoughts are on a full and final, this will also be put in writing for our records and as evidence for a dj in case of co being requested.

[Guest]

thanks,, I know the right thing to do is withdraw defense and challenge the charging order. I do not want another 10k debt.

I will then challenge any charging order threat as this is something I feel more comfortable with.

I have decided to ring court Mon or Tues and ask how to withdraw defense and husband can speak to other side and see what their thoughts are on a full and final, this will also be put in writing for our records and as evidence for a dj in case of co being requested.

 

HI M

 

I am glad you have used your own judgment, what this forum does best is provide information, but we cannot advise on matters like this, we do not know enough about your personal circumstances and we are not qualified to do so. What we can do is give you moral supposrt in whatever you decide, and you know i will always helphowever i can whatever decision you decide to make

 

Peter

[andrew1]

If you think they have a case to answer then consider (and I say consider and get advice first on how this should be done) a Part 36 offer (best done by a solicitor) if you are making a full and final offer. It puts them on the spot and can reduce their bargaining power as this relates to costs if they or you lose. Not to be done on a whim though, you need proper advice as timing is important and it could land you with costs if you lost of both parties, so that's why I say get PROPER advice before doing this. Worth reading up on and there are one or two threads on here about it.

[caro]

I see your point Andrew, but I can't help feeling that negotiating a settlement herself will have a similar effect for Muffintop if she and her OH need to represent themselves. If it's not accepted there is still a written record it would demonstrate in court that attempts have been made to resolve the matter which would still benefit when costs were considered.

 

I still think an instalment order could be the way to go, but any agreement like that whether agreed before or after court proceedings would HAVE to be paid religiously on time or it could be hard to fight a CO. However if there are other debtors they would need to be informed of this, but I think you know about this don't you muffintop?

 

Of course there is no guarantee that a F&F will be accepted, but they can only say no.

 

When did you put in your N244 and has the application been looked at by a judge yet? If you really don't want to defend, and only you and your husband can decide on that, if the judge hasn't seen the N244 perhaps you could contact the court and ask to withdraw the application. You might even get your fee back, or at least save the cost of another application? Contact the court and ask them. They are best placed to advise on that.

 

As always the choices are yours MT.