Dodgy ebay seller, dealer or not dealer?

[nicolawelch]

I recently bought a used Volvo from xxxxxxxxxx ebay. The listing clearly suggests he is a motor dealer having half a dozen cars listed and plenty of feedback sales, all cars. The listing also advised the car was in good order with recent service and brand new MOT etc. I went by train and I bought the car, and drove 400 miles home.

 

Almost immediatly I became aware of a rumbling which sounded like a second engine reving in the back. (Volvos are usually whisper quiet). The car also wobbled a bit when going around some corners and over bumps. When I got home, I asked my local garage to check for the rumbling. They suggested it was a wheel bearing, but they couldnt repair it as the wheels locking nuts could not be removed and would need to be ground off. However they did notice the handbrake was totally shot (in bits and would never have worked), I authorised immediate repairs to replace the brakes, it cost £280. I took the car back to my local garage a week later to fix the wheel bearings. They ground off the nuts and fixed the wheel bearing, another £300. The rumbling was solved and the car is now whisper quiet. But it still wobbles. The garage took the car for a test drive and the driver said the wobble frightened him. Further examination noticed a shock absorber was leaking and shot and they have quoted £300. The garage has to order the shocks, so I have the car back awaiting the parts. Last weekend the alternator packed up and that cost £475. I have still not had the shocks repaired.

 

So, the car has had lots of undisclosed faults and I am surprised the car could ever have passed the MOT in March.

 

The thing is, the dealer has a clause in his listings saying that he sells the cars as seen and as an agent for third parties. He is also ignoring my emails.

 

I now feel silly in commencing the repairs, but felt obliged to get the car roadworthy having already started paying.

 

I believe I should have allowed the seller to have the chance to make repairs, but he is ignoring me.

 

I dont know his address yet and ebay cant help as I did not win the bid. The original buyer didnt buy and the seller contacted me as the next highest bidder and I bought the car off ebay.

 

I now find that the seller sold the same car in December, but that buyer must have returned it as it was relisted in March when I bought it. I guess the seller must be aware of the faults assuming the first buyer had good reason to reject the car.

 

I would like to issue a summons for some of the repair costs, especially if he is in fact a dealer. I would like to report him to trading standards.

 

Should I now get the shocks done or not?

 

Any advise gratefully received.

Edited May 13, 2011 by IdaInFife
removed seller

[Matt63]

The perils of ebay! Have you got the service book and the MOT? What sort of mileage did it have? If the car's description was misleading and you think he is a car dealer, then you can go to trading standards and/or issue a court claim against him. But you can only claim for your "losses" from the misleading description, not for any spend that might be typical of a car of that age/standard.

[nicolawelch]

I have the registration document and the mot (with no advisories) and various service receipts. Mileage was 125,000. I will issue a claim when I find out his address and report him to trading standards. What would my losses be? I would think I should pay for the brakes and the alternator, but not the bearings and shocks. But should I get the shocks repaired in order to get a total cost of repairs and then issue the summons for that cost?

[callumsgran]

If it were me I would go for everything up to the Alternator, he's obviously a dodgy car dealer and should be taken to book.

Can you get in touch with the person who bought it in December at all?

[Dragons Dennis]

First of all, the seller is 100% a car dealer and whether he likes it or not the contract is between him and you. He is the person you sue. However, you have had the car repaired instead of taking it back to the dealer. Under the sale of goods act you MUST give the dealer the opportunity to recitify any faults. You don't seem to have done that other than e-mailing him a few times. Have you written by post? If not do so immediately telling him of the problems BUT do not mention that you have had them repaired. Offer him the chance to repair them after whcih you will take the car for an MoT at your own expense to have the work confirmed. Send the letter by Special Delivery ideally and keep a copy of the letter. Do NOT say things like 'I haven't had the car repaired'. Just be factual but avoid mentioning that yopu have already had repairs done. Give him 14 days to respond.

 

He will either respond or ignore you. I suspect he will ignore you. If he ignores you, you can sue him and show in court that he ignored not only your e-mails but also your letter.

 

Depending on the time/mileage since the MoT was done, I would involve VOSA in this one. Sounds like a dodgy MoT.

[ItsWar]

VOSA cant help as the MOT was over a month old (by a week) when I reported it. Although they will happily accept my complaint, they wont re examine the car. I realise I should have delayed having work done, but the emails were being ignored and I didnt expect such a catalogue of problems. I suppose, if they keep being ignored, I would be OK to pay for the repairs and sue for those costs. I have emailed the previous buyer, but they have not replied either. I now need to find the dealers address, as I dont have it. I collected the car from a forecourt but dont know where it is, as he drove me there from the train station and I didnt take any notice of the address. I think the dealer is hiding his true identity and this is why I have no replies.

 

I was so silly, after collecting the car and driving it across town for a test, I drove it to the post office to buy the tax and the seller then asked to be let out at the edge of a housing estate. I thought it very strange he didnt want to be dropped off at his door, he said he wanted to pop into the supermarket. I have been a real dope.

 

The car was £2850 and the repairs will take the overall cost to a £1000 / £1500 more than its worth.

[ItsWar]

If the seller insists he was acting as an agent for the owner (I have the last owners details on the reg doc), I wonder if I could send the summons to the owner. His defence would then be that he sold the car to the dealer and would provide the dealers name address and a sales receipt to proove it. I would then be able to sue the dealer. What I need is to ensure the dealer does not try to defend by saying he was only an agent for the owner. But first I need the sellers address details.....which as a business seller on ebay, they should be on the ebay page, but they are not. Ebay are looking into it for me, but I doubt they will disclose the sellers name and address, even if he is registered as a business seller.

[ItsWar]

I have just noticed I am writing these details under my own and my wifes CAG name. So ItsWar and Nicola are the same.....Sorry if the posts confuse.

[nicolawelch]

Just in case the dealer reads this thread, can I edit out his details?

[IdaInFife]

No you can't.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bit i can and sorted

[ItsWar]

I was about to phone him and then thought I should record the call. How do I buy a TrueCall with all the bells and whistles? Fancied one for a long time.

[SCARS]

Realistically the chap is a car dealer trying to hide from the Sale of Goods act by pretending to be an agent, or private seller.

 

Unfortunately these people give the rest of us Car dealers a bad name.

 

As a trade seller you have entered into a contract with him which is fully covered by the SOGA and other relevant laws, your best bet is to contact trading standards, who will be able to put some pressure on Ebay to release his contact details, which will probably be not as accurate as you'd like them to be.

 

Contacting the previous seller will likely result in you being told that they part exchanged it into a "known" car dealer, or main agent, who have subsequently traded the car to an auction. If you can find out which auction chain you again have an opportunity to find out his contact details, however you might need the support of TS to get the auction to pass you the chaps details.

 

At which point you'll find out he sold the car to a chap in the pub, who sold it to his mate, who sold it to you...

 

Not having an address, or name for the chap is going to be difficult.

 

You other option is to contact him regarding one of the other cars he's selling and get some more information from him, ie his address to send a cheque deposit to...

 

Good luck

[nicolawelch]

Thanks Scars, I have reported to Trading Standards and have a few plans similar to your ideas. Yes, the auction house will not tell me his name. But I have a few ideas to get the address. Best plan so far is just to sue the last registered keeper on the understanding that if the ebay seller was acting as the previous keepers agent, then that person will wont to pass the blame onto the ebay seller and therefore to defend the summons, he would need to tell the court, or me sooner. A friend of mine is happy to buy a car from his ebay shop and pay by cheque just to get a postal address which may be the right one. But at least I would get a name. Anyway, this will be like a long game of postal chess but much more interesting. Anymore thoughts would be gratefully received and probably employed.

[nicolawelch]

I now have the sellers name and address. I have looked up the address on google street map, and it is the same house as the ebay photo shows. I got the address by asking an ebay seller that had sold an item to him and posted the item. The name and address is also the same as the person who is listed as the previous registered keeper. I find that rather odd as the seller did not let me know that he was the registered keeper, and he gave me a different name. The listing said he was acting as a third party seller for the owner. I have also found that he has bought cars off ebay and immediatly resold them. He has also sold around ten cars in the last two weeks.

 

So, its time to issue a letter before action.

 

Then to draft the particulars of claim. I think the claim should deal with the Sale of Goods Act and take the view the seller is a dealer,but also to particularise points of claim as if he is a private seller. So if it turns out he can argue he is not a dealer, I can still use the same action to claim. I know it will then become a weaker area to rely on, but clearly the listing gave a glowing report on the car which turned out to be a bunch of lies. I wonder also how to draft other points which show the various offences under SOGA as well as Distance Selling Regulations which he has breached with his listings.

 

Can anybody suggest other areas to include that show elements of evasion and disrepute? I wonder whether it is worth phoning him and recording the call. I would like to ask him what his relationship is with the regisitered keeper. It would be quite interesting if he made up a strange story. Any views?

[scaniaman]

Car dealer hiding from SOGA???How about this. Car dealer advertising on EBay. Car is being auctioned off on ebay and dealer says "No warranty given or implied" as this is a TRADE auction. Can he do this????? and just keep rejecting bids until he gets his pre meditated price.See Saab convertible on ebay.

[ItsWar]

Summons being sent on Monday. Any last thoughts on drafting the particulars of claim?

[nicolawelch]

Summons issued. Two days later I get a 30 minute phone call and a 66% offer. Rejected of course. The chit chat was very illuminating. Every one should buy a true call.

[nicolawelch]

Looks like a cheque is on its way.

[nicolawelch]

£1200 cheque paid into bank a week ago.......not yet bounced. See eBay seller Superduperdeals2009. The person I dealt with claims to be acting as an agent for the owner of the eBay business and takes a commission for listing and making the deals happen. I dont believe him, I believe him to be the site owner and just has a few fake names. Anyway, he is still failing to provide the correct business details on his eBay site. But I expect the Revenue and other authorities will sort him out over the coming months.

[Dragons Dennis]

This is one of the worst cases of trying to get out of all legal responsibility I have seen for a very long time. This ebay seller is clearly a car dealer. He can try to wiggle his way out all he likes, but the fact that HE has got several cars listed makes HIM a dealer and the contract is between the buyer and HIM. Clearly this clown thinks he is immune from all English laws and (judging by the colour of his house) all taste and style also!

 

Ironic that he is currently selling a horse box. Does it come with his personal 10 gallon hat? he is a cowboy after all!

[nicolawelch]

Actually, he probably is immune. Office of Fair Trading have stated they are only interested in prosecuting traders that have national or international impact on large numbers of the public. They have to direct their funding appropriatly and pursuing a lone trader who only affects a handful of consumers is outside of their priorities. Slough Trading Standards forwarded my complaint to my local Trading Standards. My local TS suggested I make my complaint to Slough. So its only the Slough Police who are interested and I havent heard back from Revenue & Customs.

[heliosuk]

Well Slough trading standards have a bit of a reputation for being poor performing in terms of investigations, ask Scaniaman and his battle with Citroen UK who are based in Slough. As regards being immune, the trader is not. See link http://www.am-online.com/news/story/Ebay-car-sale-costs-trader-10000-after-court-trial/42904087.

 

So it's down to the proactiveness of the local TS dept who are funded by the local council and is frequently the first hit in public cutbacks. All part of Mrs Thatc.........er sorry Mr Camerons big society.

[scaniaman]

Yes, Slough TS are a waste of space and Cameron's cut backs should start here. If you feel that Slough TS have failed you, then report them to the OFT. If you do write OFT, also ask them what happened to the new regulations introduced in 2010 to combat rouge car traders. These regulations were brought in specifically against wayward members of the retail car trade because of the high volume of complaints against them.I have no knowledge of any actions taken against rouge traders by these rules-----typical britain--we have the regulations but nobody has the balls to implement them.