IRCAS penalty fare reminder - unfair + incorrect

[imageraw]

hello everyone,

 

I've been taking London Underground + DLR trains pretty much on a daily basis for the past three years (always travelling on an Oyster card + regularly touching in & out). I hope you can now advise me on the following issue:

 

IRCAS sent me a "reminder" (received it today 24th March): "Because you were unable to show a valid ticket (...) SERCO Docklands (...) has recently given you a Penalty Fare Notice (...)." According to this reminder, the PFN was issued on the 24th February 2011, re: a "journey from Westferry to Bank", amount: "£50 +.00".

 

I'm wondering whether it's possible to dispute such reminder (and if it is, if you could please tell me what to do) on the basis of the following:

 

- on the 24th February, I travelled from Waterloo to Holborn via Bank (and not from Westferry to Bank). This is confirmed by my Oyster travel record which I obtained from the Tube assistance office on that very day;

- my Oyster card was indeed checked by a Tube inspector on the 24th February at Bank station. For some reason, his "scanner" could not verify that I had touched in my card at Waterloo. He asked where I came from and I told him "Waterloo". He said he'd have to issue a ticket anyway, and that "someone" would then check my travel data, and that the ticket would be discarded if my version was correct;

- I refused to sign the ticket as I was worry I'd acknowledge an offence I hadn't committed, if I did;

- the Tube inspector said that this would complicate things. He scribbled something on his notepad, returned my Oyster card and driving licence to me, but did not hand over any ticket to me;

- my surname on the IRCAS "reminder" is misspelt (my address is correct);

- on the 24th March, after getting my Oyster travel record, I called the Tube customer service to report this. They said not to worry, that my travel record would really be checked, and that most likely I wouldn't hear from them. They also said something about the value of a ticket as a legal document which I couldn't really understand, and that was it.

 

Should I contact TFL cc IRCAS and explain the above? Should it be made in the form of an appeal? The IRCAS "reminder" states that "you have now forfeited the right to appeal" (apparently because 21 days have passed from the 24th February)...

 

Am I wrong in thinking that the whole thing is ridiculous? I wouldn't have any problems with paying a fine if I were caught travelling without ticket, but this is a completely different matter altogether...

 

Thanks for taking the time to read this.

[imageraw]

corrigendum: "on the 24th March, after getting my Oyster travel record" should read "on the 24th February,...".

[honeybee13]

Hello and welcome to CAG. You can edit your first post, which might make it easier for the guys. At the bottom of it, you should see a button that says Edit Post.

 

My best, HB

[Wriggler7]

I am confused. Was a penalty fare notice issed or wasn't it?

 

The process seems to relate to a penalty fare, but you were not given one.

 

I suggest that you write to IRCAS in similar terms to your post, attach a copy of your Oyster print out. (never send an original).

[imageraw]

Sorry for the confusion. A penalty notice was apparently issued (hence the "reminder") but I was never given a copy. Good idea to write to IRCAS. They have an appeal procedure - hope they consider my reasons.

[imageraw]

After submitting an appeal online (and explaining what's outlined above) I received a letter from IAS (Independent Appeals Service). It said (relevant lines):

 

"(...) I understand that the notice was issued as production of a valid ticket was not possible on the date concerned (...) In order that this office may fully assess this case please forward a copy of either the ticket and any supporting documentation, oyster statement/record (...)."

 

So I did. I sent in a copy of the Oyster travel record I got on 24th February (plz see above) and a scanned copy of my Oyster card + a letter saying:

 

" As p { margin-bottom: 0.21cm; }requested, I am forwarding a copy of my Oyster statement and record number. As to the reason why the notice was issue, please notice the following:

 

• no penalty notice was ever given to me. I have therefore never seen a copy of such penalty notice. In my on-line appeal, I have clearly requested a copy of such notice for me to view and double-check on its validity. So far, it has not been forwarded to me;
  
• the information given as part of the online appeal form are incorrect. Specifically, the journey (Westferry-Bank) and the time (16.05): on the 24th February 2011, I travelled from Waterloo to Holborn via Bank between about 16.40 and 17.20. At Bank, at the DLR platform, I met with some colleagues who were arriving from London City Airport and helped them with their luggage. That is where my Oyster card was checked;
  
• the ticket inspector was unable verify the details on my Oyster card with his scanner. He said that taking my details was just normal procedure, so that my travel record could be checked.
  

Could you please also provide the following information:

 

• are scanners carried by DLR ticket inspectors 100% reliable? My Oyster card occasionally does not respond when I touch in and out a ticket barrier. I reported the issue to TFL, but was told that this is “normal”;
  
• should a ticket inspector, before issuing any notice, agree on verifying the passenger's Oyster card by other means? We were at Bank station, and this could easily have been done;
  
• if communication with the ticket inspector is poor, should a third party (I suppose a member of the transport police) be involved? I could hardly understand the gentleman who checked my Oyster card on the 24th February, and had the strong feeling that he did not even try to listen to what I was telling him (where I actually came from, let's check the Oystercard somewhere, I was not on this DLR train, can I speak to your supervisor, etc)."
  

Today I received a reply from IAS. It clearly looks like a template, the kind of standard letters you received from companies when they could not care less about you or what you have to say. Its content, tone, and language also raise several doubts as to whether they are really independent. Interestingly, they are the same as IRCAS (same company logo), the "independent" agency in charge of collecting money for SERCO/DLR. As a matter of fact, when you contact the DLR customer service, you actually speak to IRCAS representatives...if such a set-up is totally legal in England, well, then probably there is no difference between Putin's Russian mafia state and the UK.

 

But I am digressing. What matters is that the appeal process was done through the IRCAS people (who want my money) and the reply came from the IAS people (who want me to give my money to IRCAS after assessing my case with "consistency and fairness"). Here's the content (relevant lines):

 

"(...)Having considered the reasons for appeal, I note that you were unable to produce a validated Oyster card and I can confirm therefore that the DLR member of staff was correct to issue a Penalty Fare. Accordingly, I must advise that your appeal has been declined".

 

No reference whatsoever is made to the documents I sent in or the possibility that my Oyster card might have been faulty or the fact that I have requested to see a copy of the original penalty fare ticket. No explanation whatsoever is provided on the specific reasons why my appeal has been declined. The whole thing is infuriating as it gives out a clear message: don't mess with me, I'm bigger than you.

 

The documents I sent in prove that I my Oyster card was in order when I travelled on the 24th February. My Oyster card was finally replaced yesterday when I failed (once more) to go through a barrier (red light showed, someone checked my Oyster, they confirmed I should have been able to go through, gave me a new card + a receipt that shows the whole transaction). As far as I know, SERCO/DLR or their dear friends (IRCAS and IAS) should be producing documents proving that I am wrong. Failing to send me a copy of the original penalty fare ticket is out of order.

 

The IAS letter also says that "(...) Any further appeal should be forwarded (...) to Community Safety, Enforcement and Policing, Transport for London, etc". It also says that if I pay now it is £25, if I pay later than 14 days it is £50. It doesn't say if appealing further will affect this in any way.

 

I know it is only 25 quid. I could pay and forget about the whole thing. The sheep behaviour, kind of. But it really bothers me that DLR & friends can happily get away with it, and get my money unfairly. So I will appeal further. And it'd be so interesting to launch an enquiry into the mafia-like collusion DLR/SERCO-IRCAS/IAS...

 

Any advice/comment on this story is greatly appreciated. Thank you.

[tiredTraveller]

I know anecdotes don't constitute data, but I've been hit by a scanner problem on the DLR.

 

In my case he tried twice - in the beginning it showed no travel history, the second time it showed partial history as it seemed to be catching up. I pointed this out as evidence of some kind of system slowness and he just started screaming at my girlfriend, reducing her to tears and then turned to me and said 'see? you've made the lady cry'. Technical problems are one thing, but the attitude doesn't help either.

 

I didn't make any official complaint because they dragged things out so long I couldn't be 110% sure of all the facts and what was said by the time the appeal came back (threats were made, but I couldn't remember enough of the wording to put them in writing) so I've just cut my losses and not used the DLR again.

 

Never had any issues anywhere else on the underground network though

[imageraw]

Thanks for the moral support. I've too stopped travelling by DLR altogether. Unlike the Tube, they seem to prefer employing people whose IQ is low enough to constitute a threat to public safety. I too came across several cases of rude behaviour or complete ignorance on basic issues such as "if I'm switching from DLR to Overground, shall I touch in & out?". Not to mention trains being often late, unannounced delays, and so on.

[imageraw]

found two interesting references:

 

guardian.co.uk/money/2009/aug/22/cross-country-trains-e-tickets

 

londontravelwatch.org.uk/document/4026/get

[RPI]

surely if they are claiming that you were issued with a PF then they will have in their possession a carbonised copy of the notice?

 

I am an authorised collector on national rail and our PF books have 4 copies, top goes to customer, 2nd to the RP admin, 3rd to RPSS and 4th stays in book.

 

this is my suggestion but wait until Old codger or someone else gives it the thumbs up, pay the £25 to stop it esculating then appeal again once more asking them to send you a copy of the notice which you say you have never seen, if they continue to not answer this question then go to London travelwatch.

 

Having said the above, there's nothing stopping them just sending you a summons for ticketless travel.

[Old-CodJA]

Yes, if they claim that you were issued a Penalty Fare Notice they will have a carbonised copy of that numbered notice and that will have been sent to IRCAS for processing.

 

During the last year or so it seems there has been a major shift whereby a much more agressive & hard-line attitude has been taken on DLR by all accounts.

 

Many of the staff now employed on the DLR are contracted agency people provided by a company called Carlyle Security and not 'real' rail-staff, trained & employed in-house as it were. It seems that this trend is expanding.

 

IRCAS is a company called Independent Revenue Collection & Support based in Petersfield, who provide the processing and debt collection service for DLR, but the confusing bit is that, although there is an advertised appeal procedure if you are not satisfied with IRCAS response, the Independent Appeals Service ( IAS ) is in the same office at Petersfield

 

If I were you, I would ask them to send you a photo-copy of the notice that they claim was issued to you and that they claim you accepted. If they fail to do so and / or you are still not satisfied that the matter has been examined and investigated properly, then I suggest that you write directly to the top man, The TfL Transport Commissioner Peter Hendy and advise IRCAS / Serco-DLR that you intend to do so.

 

If in fact you did not have a valid ticket and simply refused to sign a Penalty Fare Notice that resulted in a report by the member of staff, there is a possibility that they will issue a summons, but they will need reliable evidence to follow it through. From your OP it seems there are a few areas that need close investigation..

 

.

[imageraw]

Thank you for your advice!

If I were you, I would ask them to send you a photo-copy of the notice that they claim was issued to you and that they claim you accepted. If they fail to do so and / or you are still not satisfied that the matter has been examined and investigated properly, then I suggest that you write directly to the top man, The TfL Transport Commissioner Peter Hendy and advise IRCAS / Serco-DLR that you intend to do so.

 

I'd certainly do as you suggest, though I'm a bit worried about not submitting an appeal to TFL Community Safety, Enforcement and Policing in the meantime. I asked them for a copy of the penalty fare ticket already three times: over the phone (when I first called the DLR customer service and realised I was speaking to IRCAS), through the online appeal form, and on my letter to IAS.

 

Would it be a good idea to write to both TfL Transport Commissioner Peter Hendy (where do I find his contact address, btw?) and TFL Community Safety, Enforcement and Policing as part of my appeal?

 

I don't really care about their issuing a summon, whatever that is. I had a valid ticket, and I did refuse to sign the penalty fare ticket. The only thing I'm worried about is that all this is going to cost me more than £25...it seems to be taking a lot of time to do a complete follow-through...possibly this is also what IRCAS & co rely on.