PCN - should I contest ?

[londonwest]

I parked my car on what I believed to be a pay and display bay, bought a p&d ticket – only to find out later, after a PCN had been left on my car, I was parked in a residents bay. One side of the street is p&d and the other is residents only. I had only seen the p&d signs and thought they applied to the whole street (which is the case where I live).

 

In terms of signage. There is a residents parking sign which is about a car length away in front of where my car was parked and a P&D sign directly opposite on the other side of the road.

 

Having written to the Borough and shown my P&D ticket they refuse to cancel the notice.

 

The PCN - says the officer waited by my car for 5 mins and that time started two mins after I bought the P&D (I most probably spent at least a minute getting my 3 year old, bags etc out of the car) so the officer could well have been watching and waiting for me to leave my car.

 

I’ve attached the PCN and would be really grateful if anyone can tell me if its valid and if there are any strong grounds I can contest this on. I've covered up the details but can confirm that car reg, make, colour, dates, location are correct.

PCN.pdf

[sailor sam]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

 

Can you give us the location so we can check the area on street view?

[londonwest]

Hi am happy to provide the location but is it okay to do this on public forum?

[Michael Browne]

Hi am happy to provide the location but is it okay to do this on public forum?

 

Without providing details, it's impossible for people to give specific advice, and I doubt whether Wandsworth have the time or inclination to trawl forums and evn if they do, so what.

[londonwest]

Hi, thanks for your help.

 

The location is Shelgate Road W11 at the junction with Northcote road. On the right is permit holders only sign and on the left hand side Permit Holders or Pay at Machine sign.

 

I can upload photos provided by the council also if that helps?

[sailor sam]

Looks all compliant to me i'm afraid. The PCN may have flaws but you would need to post it complete (minus personal details) to check.

[londonwest]

Hi yes I can post pcn - do I understand correctly you require the original? Please can you advise where to send it. I have until end of next week to pay at lower charge.

 

many thanks

[Michael Browne]

No, Sailor Sam means post it on this thread, as you did on post #1, (but just minus the PCN and reg no's), both back and front of the PCN.

[londonwest]

Apologies, i misunderstood. I've attached the PCN both sides, as requested.

many thanks

PCN both sides.pdf

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

In your shoes I would appeal on 2 grounds. 1) If as you say there are P&D bays in the road in question, the PCN is inadequate in its description of location to identify the bay you are parked in, you can reasonably say "I made what I consider to be reasonable investigations to ascertain that I was lawfully parked, purchased a ticket from the machine nearby and displayed it. The ticket was on full and clear view at all times I was parked and valid for the entire period". You are under no obligation to provide any more details and what you state is entirely true. Much will then depend on what evidence the council have to show what bay you were parked in. 2) Owing to what appears to be a misalignment of the PCN printing device the amount of the discounted penalty is illegible. Display of the amount of the discounted penalty is a statutory requirement on PCNs and the failure to ensure that this is clear renders the PCN unenforceable.

 

I would tick the boxes, "The contravention did not occur", "The penalty exceeds the applicable amount", "There has been a procedural impropriety", on the NTO.

 

Best of luck.

[sailor sam]

In your shoes I would appeal on 2 grounds. 1) If as you say there are P&D bays in the road in question, the PCN is inadequate in its description of location to identify the bay you are parked in, you can reasonably say "I made what I consider to be reasonable investigations to ascertain that I was lawfully parked, purchased a ticket from the machine nearby and displayed it. The ticket was on full and clear view at all times I was parked and valid for the entire period". You are under no obligation to provide any more details and what you state is entirely true. Much will then depend on what evidence the council have to show what bay you were parked in. 2) Owing to what appears to be a misalignment of the PCN printing device the amount of the discounted penalty is illegible. Display of the amount of the discounted penalty is a statutory requirement on PCNs and the failure to ensure that this is clear renders the PCN unenforceable.

I would tick the boxes, "The contravention did not occur", "The penalty exceeds the applicable amount", "There has been a procedural impropriety", on the NTO.

 

Best of luck.

 

I don't think there is any mileage in that. There is adequate signage indicating that that side of the road is residents parking only and that they are not 'shared' bays. There MAY be mileage in this although it does give 50% clearly as the discount. I would think though that the LA will be happy for it to go all the way which may losse the discount.

 

 

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Londonwest, could you upload the photos please and we can take a look.

[sailor sam]

Here is the street view link; http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Shelgate+Rd,+London+SW11,+United+Kingdom&sll=48.224673,-10.634766&sspn=13.768118,46.362305&ie=UTF8&geocode=Fd01EQMde3z9_w&split=0&hq=&hnear=Shelgate+Rd,+London+SW11,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.459221,-0.166039&spn=0,0.045276&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=51.459304,-0.165783&panoid=KOYly-asvxn4xYwcGkPl4Q&cbp=12,101.5,,0,-0.97

 

Left hand side is pay & display and shared resident parking (plus p&d machine), right hand side is resident only with no shared p&d parking which is where I think the OP parked.

[green_and_mean]

I personally think missing out on the discount is throwing good money after bad, the signage is clear, the bay is clear, the PCN is correct. Whilst its an honest mistake its highly unlikely to get past either the Council or PATAS.

[Michael Browne]

I personally think missing out on the discount is throwing good money after bad, the signage is clear, the bay is clear, the PCN is correct. Whilst its an honest mistake its highly unlikely to get past either the Council or PATAS.

I would agree with you, however the PCN was served on 29th Jan, so the discount period has already lapsed.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Here is the street view link; http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&q=Shelgate+Rd,+London+SW11,+United+Kingdom&sll=48.224673,-10.634766&sspn=13.768118,46.362305&ie=UTF8&geocode=Fd01EQMde3z9_w&split=0&hq=&hnear=Shelgate+Rd,+London+SW11,+United+Kingdom&ll=51.459221,-0.166039&spn=0,0.045276&t=h&z=15&layer=c&cbll=51.459304,-0.165783&panoid=KOYly-asvxn4xYwcGkPl4Q&cbp=12,101.5,,0,-0.97

 

Left hand side is pay & display and shared resident parking (plus p&d machine), right hand side is resident only with no shared p&d parking which is where I think the OP parked.

 

None of which is relevant because the council needs evidence to show where OP parked because much as they may wish to do so they cannot rely on where sailor sam thinks the op parked.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

It's also worth checking when the bays were last painted because it looks as if there is a possibility that they are non-compliant.

Worth chucking that in as an inadequate signage issue too if you appeal.

[green_and_mean]

None of which is relevant because the council needs evidence to show where OP parked because much as they may wish to do so they cannot rely on where sailor sam thinks the op parked.

 

Hows that going to work? The OP has already admitted to being on the wrong side of the road unless they lie and claim they didn't in the formal appeal the Council don't have to prove anything.

[sailor sam]

None of which is relevant because the council needs evidence to show where OP parked because much as they may wish to do so they cannot rely on where sailor sam thinks the op parked.

 

In addition to what G & M points out, there is the small matter of photo evidence that the LA could use to show which side of the road the OP was parked. Personally i think as the discounted time limit has passed, then maybe the OP has nothing to loose than to take it all the way, but I think your arguments are 'clutching at straw' ones.

[londonwest]

Hello, thanks for all the comments its very helpful. I've only just managed to log on - so apologies for not replying sooner and thanks for your patience.

 

I've uploaded all the correspondence with WBC and photos from which I think it is possible to identify where the car was parked. I've looked on street view and the signage is there and clear (if only I had checked both sides of the road). But if the PCN was issued incorrectly it would be possible to contest, but that doesn't seem to be the case??

PCN-WBC 01.03.11 Photos.pdf

PCN-my letter 30.1.11.pdf

PCN-WBC response 18.02.11.pdf

[londonwest]

ps. I meant to say the discounted rate has been extended until end of next week and I has been confirmed by email.

 

many thanks

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

Hows that going to work? The OP has already admitted to being on the wrong side of the road unless they lie and claim they didn't in the formal appeal the Council don't have to prove anything.

 

No the doesn't, I pointed this all out in my post.

 

In addition to what G & M points out, there is the small matter of photo evidence that the LA could use to show which side of the road the OP was parked. Personally i think as the discounted time limit has passed, then maybe the OP has nothing to loose than to take it all the way, but I think your arguments are 'clutching at straw' ones.

 

I covered the issue of photos in my post.

[sailor sam]

If I was you, I would take the opportunity of paying the discounted amount. As I suspected, the photo evidence shows that you were parked in a residence bay. While I agree that the discounted amount on the PCN is illegible because of the misalignment of the print process, I wouldn't want to risk £50 on that argument alone if it was me.

[Bernie_the_Bolt]

OK the issue of the bay has been well covered so I can see that is going nowhere. That leaves you with the misalignment issue and the potential invalid bay markings (on which there is no certainty without local knowledge and a tape measure etc - even then it's not an exact science).

 

So it comes down to whether you want to risk the discount.

 

One advantage of making reps is that councils often foul up at a later stage and they still may do so in this case.

 

Up to you.

[sailor sam]

No the doesn't, I pointed this all out in my post.

 

 

 

I covered the issue of photos in my post.

 

Sorry, I must of blinked because I can't see any reference in your post to photos.