Total Gas Didn't read my Meter for 2-1/2 years - Now demanding £7700

[madpriest]

We're in a bit of a pickle. I am a trustee of a house for homelsss men. When we took over the house the gas was connected but for the life of me, I can't remember paying anyone.(My fault)

 

I today received a bill for £7700 since September 2008. The Bill shows no meter readings at all.

 

When I called Total Power today they said that the account was a business account. When we moved in they claimed that they sent a letter (recorded delivery - we have no record) asking that we get another supplier. They then put us on a default (deemed) tariff at 4.9p per unit. (Highway robbery)

They also said the reason why it was a default tariff is that they had no contract with us.

 

Question 1- Is this debt enforcable in the absence of a signed contract??

 

I offered to settle for 3500 over six months and they refused but said they would commence

proceedings to remove the meter and cut the gas off.

 

I've got a lot of homeless men in a cold climate. How can I prevent them removing the meter

except by opposing at the magistrates court?? Injunction?

 

I'm going to get an alternate supplier but what should I do to fight this injustice?

[madpriest]

I'm also having a problem with an out of contract tariff. Going back 2-1/2 years - they want £7700 !!

 

My question is if there is no contract, is the debt enforcable?

 

Big Question?

[MrOverheads]

yes it's enforeceable (though I'm not a lawyer and you should take legal advice not rely on this bulletin)

 

The Electricity Act 1989 Paragrpah 3 of Schedule 6:

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1989/29/schedule/6

 

From EDF's Deemed Contract T&C's:

 

A Paragraph 3 of Schedule 6 to the Electricity Act 1989 (the “Electricity

Act Schedule”) provides for contracts to be deemed to have

been made between electricity suppliers and owners or occupiers of

premises in circumstances described at paragraphs 3(1) and (2) of the

Electricity Act Schedule;

B Paragraph 3(6) of the Electricity Act Schedule requires the express

terms and conditions of such a contract (a “Deemed Contract”) to be

provided for in a scheme made under paragraph 3 (a “Deemed Contract

Scheme”); and

C Paragraph 3(9) of the Electricity Act Schedule provides for a

Deemed Contract Scheme to make different provision for different

cases or classes of cases, or for different areas, determined by or in

accordance with the provisions of the Deemed Contract Scheme .

[MrOverheads]

I'm also having a problem with an out of contract tariff. Going back 2-1/2 years - they want £7700 !!

 

If you are a business and you did nothing to get a contract (ie you were aware that electricity was supplied to the premises but didn't make an effort to pay for it) then all you can do is check to see whether the bill is calculated correctly (lot's of things to check and not all on the bill) and then negotiate or you may get lucky if you have mitigating circumstances e.g. recorded phone calls showing that you did try and find out who your supplier was when you first took over responsibility for the premises.

 

We see this time and time again, but business's don't like to pay for our services (share of savings) thinking they can do it themselves for free then get hit with large back bills at that point they come running back to us. Like a lawyer or tax expert it's better to engage early for a cost and avoid situations than to bring them in when things go wrong.

 

If you put the full story, bill detail etc of your £7,700 here I'll let you know if there's anything you can do to reduce it.

[madpriest]

It's a gas bill from total power. They claim to have sent a recorded delivery letter in 2007 saying "find yourself another suppler"

and put us on this deemed contract. I saw the post on electricity but does that apply to gas as well?

 

Total didn't read the bill since sepember 2008 and are now wanting 7700

no other details on bill

 

hmmm

[ihateyes]

Well, for the roof this house provides for homeless people, i would contact your local councillors/mp for support and help here.

 

My question to total is if a letter was sent recorded - prove it!

Also only one letter is 2.5yrs???? shocking from their point of view.

I believe they can only chase a debt for 1yrs worth of energy usage.

Other people will follow who will confirm this.

 

Good luck

[MrOverheads]

Total didn't read the bill

I assume you mean no one's read the meter since September 2008.

 

They claim to have sent a recorded delivery letter in 2007 saying "find yourself another suppler"

Have you asked for a copy of this letter and proof of delivery if they are saying they have sent it recorded.

Who are "they" - by letter or on the phone?

 

are now wanting 7700 no other details on bill

In what sense is it then a bill? Is it just a letter asking for £7,700?

Have you asked them to provide you with an invoice to match i.e. one with calculation showing how they got to £7,700. e.g. Opening read(s), closing read(s), rate per kWh, conversion factor, calorific value, standing charges, meter serial number, CCL, VAT etc etc

 

Have you recorded any readings at all? e.g. at least one when you moved in and one when the £7,700 bill landed on your doorstep.

[MrOverheads]

Mods: There is another thread on this £7,700 issue and I have answered that question there. Can you merge the 2 threads please to avoid people giving misleading advice. e.g. ihateyes - they are entitled to go back 6 years as this is a business account.

 

The other thread is here: http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?297493-Business-Electricity-EDF-Energy-New-Proprietor

Please extract the posts relating to the £7,700 and move here.

[MrOverheads]

madpriest: as it is a shelter for the homeless what rate of VAT are they charging you?

 

(I actually have a homeless shelter as a client)

Edited March 9, 2011 by MrOverheads

[maroondevo52]

Posts moved from another thread and merged.

[madpriest]

OK here's an update and answer to questions.

 

The property on question was an old peoples home until we purchased it.

The original supplier of gas was Total Power

 

When we purchased the property for the homeless we failed to enter into a contract

with anyone and therefore became a 'deemed contract'.

 

Total have recently submitted a bill for 7700 with a 5% VAT which I

believe is either a Domestic VAT or Charity. I don't believe it is charity

as we have not filled in the requisite VAT forms.

 

I checked the M-Line number and find that there is NO MPRN allocated to this address which is No 30. and not registered supplier.

 

Obviously we have had gas and so I am prepared to make an offer of around 50% which is over 1 years usage. (The comment about a business account is moot. Total Power may say that only do business accounts but they charged VAT domestic and also I would argue that definition of domestic -v- commercial is not predicated on the person to whom addressed but the useage of the power. In this case it is patently residential)

 

I today put into a place a contract with another supplier who informed me that although there was no MPRN for No. 30, there was a MPRN for the old peoples home. However, the MPRN was marked as 'supplierless', i.e. no supplier.

 

(1) Do Total have a right to demand payment when then cannot show they are the supplier?

 

The invoice I received show a number of quarters with no reading and no estimate but a reading on 12th feb with 149,000 kwh

 

They said that they (Total) sent a recorded delivery in 2008 early advising us to get another supplier quickly but we have no record and I have asked for a copy and proof of delivery.

 

They threaten to remove the meter, but my new supplier says they will use it. I guess that Total will probably take it to court. Ho Hum. Happy Daze

 

Any thoughts?

[MrOverheads]

Ok there is a host of new information here that changes things again. I'll reply later as busy now, but in the meantime is there anything else you wish to share? A photo of the meter clearly showing serial number and reading would help, it should also have a sticker on it with the install date.

 

Residential vs Business IS relevant and I'll explain why later.

Shipperless supply is also very relevant

[Surfer01]

It sounds as if the supply was never registered to any supplier! If so, they will have difficulty obtaining an accurate bill and secondly if it is not registered to any particualr supplier they cannot bill. gas supplies are generally read more often than electric but should be read at least once every 6 months Ask them for the opening read and the closing read for the current bill. To determine if it is more or less correct take a reading now and again in a week's time. This will gived you an average usage per day and will then allow you to work out your winter usage. Working out summer usage is a bit more tricky, but if heating is switched off if you deduct about 60% off winter usage you shoudl be more or less right. This will only give you a rough estimate, but allow you room to negotiate.

[MrOverheads]

The property on question was an old peoples home until we purchased it.

When you purchased it and moved in, did you take any readings? Or are you still in contact with the previous owners who should have taken closing readings.

 

The original supplier of gas was Total Power

You mean that the supplier to the old peoples home at the date the tenancy changed was TG&P?

 

When we purchased the property for the homeless we failed to enter into a contract with anyone and therefore became a 'deemed contract'.

Why did you fail to enter into a contract? Are there any mitigating circumstances?

 

Total have recently submitted a bill for 7700 with a 5% VAT which I believe is either a Domestic VAT or Charity. I don't believe it is charity as we have not filled in the requisite VAT forms.

This is where you confuse me. Do you mean you ARE a charity BUT you haven't told TG&P or do you mean you haven't registered with the Charity Commision, hence are not a Charity. if not a CHarity what legal status/entity is the Homeless Organisation?

5% VAT could be because usage is below the De Minimis level OR it could be because more than 60% of the property is non-business (ie residential) and TG&P are still applying the Old People's home rate of VAT because the previosu occupiers submitted the appropriate form. If you haven't submitted a 5% claim form then you should complete one. I'm presuming you are not VAT registered so VAT is a real cost and you don't want them to increase the VAT to 20% on the £7,700 when they realise that it was the previous occupiers and not you that submitted the 5% form.

 

(The comment about a business account is moot. Total Power may say that only do business accounts but they charged VAT domestic and also I would argue that definition of domestic -v- commercial is not predicated on the person to whom addressed but the useage of the power. In this case it is patently residential)

See above re "domestic" VAT

 

I checked the M-Line number and find that there is NO MPRN allocated to this address which is No 30. and not registered supplier.

The M Line is the name for the domestic queries of XO Serve. As your's is a Commerical Meter you should call 0845 601 3049. Have your Meter Serial Nmber from the front of the meter to hand, tey will either tell you it is "Shipperless" or will tell you who the supplier is. However that is not the end of the story. You may not be on the National Grid Transco network and e on an IGT network see here: http://www.energylinx.co.uk/independent_gas_transporters.htm

 

I today put into a place a contract with another supplier who informed me that although there was no MPRN for No. 30, there was a MPRN for the old peoples home. However, the MPRN was marked as 'supplierless', i.e. no supplier.

So the Old People's Home didn't pay for Gas either?

 

The invoice I received show a number of quarters with no reading and no estimate but a reading on 12th feb with 149,000 kwh

Can you make up your mind. Have you received a letter with no detail demanding £7,700 or have you received a standard bill (opening reading, closing reading etc demanding £7,700?

Is that a reading of 149000 as you state or is there a reading with a calculation showing how they converted X no of units to 149,000kWh?

 

Other questions:

Is there a label on the meter giving the install date?

Does it say m3 or ft3 on the front of the meter.

[Surfer01]

As far as I am aware, commercial utilities are billed at 5% VAT rate which is the same as domestic utilities, however a carbon tax may be added. Total Gas only supply commercial enterprises and not domestic premises. There is a possiblity that you are being charged for gas from the day the meter was installed.

[EnergyandWater]

As already descibed on the thread, commercial supplies are charged at the full rate of VAT unless the business is entitled to relief. The entitlement to relief has also already been described on the thread so please don't add confusing statements Surfer01!

[Surfer01]

As already descibed on the thread, commercial supplies are charged at the full rate of VAT unless the business is entitled to relief. The entitlement to relief has also already been described on the thread so please don't add confusing statements Surfer01!

"unless the business is entitled to relief. " A care home is normally regarded as residential and generally billed at 5% VAT. Maybe the OP can clatrify.

[2Grumpy]

Have you asked why they asked you to move to a different supplier - might it be that they only supply businesses and they realised that you aren't a business and so couldn't offer you the correct tarif?

 

After 2 1/2 years they have realised that you haven't changed supplier but haven't an appropriate rate to charge you, so used the deemed rate.

 

Perhaps you could argue that you weren't given the opportunity to get the best rate. they were trying to get rid of you after all.

[madpriest]

I was just looking at my old threads which had died.

 

The end result of this was that I settled for £4k paid over 6 months which as far as our charity is concerned was a good result

 

Thanks everyone

[maroondevo52]

Thanks for the update madpriest

[Surfer01]

I was just looking at my old threads which had died.

 

The end result of this was that I settled for £4k paid over 6 months which as far as our charity is concerned was a good result

 

Thanks everyone

 

Good result. As a matter of interest, are you classed as a domestic residence or as a business?