Benefit Sanctions?

[Elliebes]

I think a sanction is brewing for me. Ive just been doing weekly signings with this new job centre after the 13 week interview I had in my old JC.

 

I arrived at my new JC to sign on today only to be told I should have signed on last week and that I failed to attend.

 

I showed the woman my card and it says 20.1.11 @ 2.20 and sign on 3.2.11 @ 2.20 Then every second week on Thursday @ 2.20 which is today the 17.2.11 unless Im going mad? I also have an old attendance arrangement in my pack from the old job centre Ive just moved from and that says the same thing but at 3pm.

 

She pulled out a piece of paper from my pack that shows the date of the 10.2.11 that I was supposedly to have missed and the signing time on that was 4pm but it was with the new JC.

 

So there are two pieces of paper albeit from separate JCs that agree with the fact that after 3.2.11 I then go to sign on fortnightly.

 

I told her I wouldnt deliberately not come to sign on. She said well you will get your money next week as normal but this has to go to a DMA to decide. So they are at it again. Looking for a sanction because quite clearly Im overdue one. I clearly was given misleading information. I have two attendance arrangement papers in my pack to say that after 3.2.11 I go onto fortnightly signings. So Im now waiting to hear what will happen.

 

It makes me laugh I brought all kinds of evidence I was looking for work including my self typed job log and these just got disregarded. Well if they do sanction me then I will go to a Tribunal make no mistake with my evidence of the conflicting information.

 

Incidentally on the 3.2.11 I turned up for my normal signing and got told that I had an appointment with my PA at 3.15 and would sign on then so I had to go away and hang around for an hour.

 

Im really paranoid caused by my old JC which I had to remove myself from because I collapsed with acute stress and anxiety. Im sick to death of being hounded and harassed by job centres. I see other people turning up, not producing a iota of paperwork blagging the signing advisor signing on and leaving. Why are these people on my back ?? Im 58 for God's Sake Im doing over and above applying and looking for jobs...I comply with everything they ask me to do and I apply for every job they give me........Im doing a voluntary work training course and Im volunteering 4 hours in a homelessness hostel.

 

I noticed this advisor was only interested in putting some stuff on computer about my so called 'missed' appointment and never showed me any jobs on the computer or printed any out. Again I waited 3/4 hour to be seen. Shades of the old job centre. This is so they can run around looking for evidence to sanction you. God Im so angry!!!

Edited February 17, 2011 by Elliebes
mistake

[ErikaPNP]

I showed the woman my card and it says 20.1.11 @ 2.20 and sign on 3.2.11 @ 2.20 Then every second week on Thursday @ 2.20 which is today the 17.2.11 unless Im going mad?

 

Well I read that exactly the same as you have, that your next sign date after 3/2/11 would be 17/2/11.

 

Did you complete any paperwork in respect of the case going to the Decision Maker? If not, I would suggest you take a photocopy of that appointment card and send it to the office that pays your benefit and who will be making the decision (not the Jobcentre), along with a covering letter pointing out that two weeks from the 3rd is the 17th and state that in view of the appointment card, you had no cause to think that your sign on date would be anything other than the 17th and would not have deliberately placed yourself in a position which could bring about hardship resulting from a loss of benefit for failure to sign on. Ask them to consider that any reasonable person viewing the appointment card would read it in the same manner.

[Elliebes]

Thanks Erika I will do this. I didnt fill in any paperwork for the DMA but I think I should send a letter of explanation anyway as you suggest before they get their teeth into me because Im tired of being picked on by this government organisation. Sorry self pity here, I know there are many others like me, but yes I will act on this today...thank you for your help

[flumps1976]

I work at JCP so please don't shoot me, I work on the DMA referral team and Fortnight Job Review (FJR) sigining team as well as reception and generally picking up a broom to clean the office if I dare to have 5 spare minutes.

The guidance is quite clear that a statement needs to be taken and that is usually in the form of a written statement from th customer on a form where you should have your name, national insurance number, the date of the missed signing/appointment and location of the appointment, the date notification of said siging/appointment was issued and the date and time that physically atetnded the office following the missed appointment/signing.

You then give a written account statement of your reasons and sign and date the form.

This is then passed to a team leader either of the FJR or Customer Service/DMA team to consider if there was good cause for you not attending (tbh if it was me that you saw I would have attached photocopies of the 2 ES40 booklets showing the dates and times you were required to attend) and if the dates are conflicting then that is usually treated as good cause, so in my opinion there should not be a referral made to the Sector DMA team to consider any sanction, however it wasn't me so I can't give any guarantees sorry.

If a sanction is imposed you will need to request a reconsideration of the decision in writing and insist that copies of the two ES40 booklets are taken to show the conflicting information and then it's a waiting game sorry.

 

I hope things work out for you.

[Elliebes]

Thanis again this is very useful I was not given anything to sign except my signing card thingy you get off the advisor. She just made an entry on the computer that there was confusion but nobody gave me any statement to sign nor asked me to explain my situation. She said the explanation that she typed will go straight through to her head of department or whatever and it might go to a DMA if there is still doubt. She disregarded my attendance card and the other paper with the same instruction from the other job centre and kept harping on about the other piece of paper I had with the 4pm time on which had the date of the 10th on and not my normal signing time.

[flumps1976]

Sounds like she was completing the DART system and sending it directly to her Team Leader for consideration of the good cause.

Perhaps our systems is out dated as we still issue the paper stencils and will telephone people if we think that more clarification is needed before sending anything to our Team Leader but at least that way we can also forward the additional information (such as the photocopied es40 cards), also our staffing levels do not allow the DMA person to come out on to a front facing desk to then take a statement to refer through the DART system and that is a various reasons (severly understaffed die to part time workers, sickness and annual leave etc).

Fingers crossed for you

[Elliebes]

Yes thats exactly what she did and youre right it doesn't allow for showing my evidence. Im not sure which is the payment office for this job centre? If its still in the same area as the old job centre will it be the same one? How can I find this out? I will send my stuff on Monday as I have to go to the library and photocopy my evidence. If I dont send something in I might find at my next signing they may say my benefits have been stopped so best to volunteer the information rather than wait for a nasty shock at my next signing.

 

This happened last year around 16.9.10. My benefits got stopped - nobody said anything - and I didnt find out until I came back to sign on 2 weeks later. But this was with the old job centre. I wasnt informed or anything and they accused me of not signing on when I did.

[antone]

Yes thats exactly what she did and youre right it doesn't allow for showing my evidence. Im not sure which is the payment office for this job centre? If its still in the same area as the old job centre will it be the same one? How can I find this out?

 

 

The office that makes payments is called a Benefit Delivery Centre (BDC). These are larger offices, not open to public visitors, with a few hundred staff and dealing with perhaps 10-20 Jobcentres in a specific area. Their contact number should be on your initial award letter that details what you're entitled to. If you can't find that letter, your local Jobcentre should be able to give you the number.

[Elliebes]

Ok thanks again for your help

[frank_begbie]

Meanwhile a person loses a fortnights benefit while they decide what to do. Brilliant!

[flumps1976]

No benefit is lost or suspended whilst a decision is made, if it is an adverse decision it affects a future payment and if it is the firs sanction for fts/fta it will be for one week any subsequnt fts/fta will result in a 2 weeks sanction.

It is actually pointless to contact the BDC as it is not the processing team that make these decision it is the DMA team and tey will write to you if they require any further information, the BDC attached to the JCP where I work rarely telephone customers fo further information as tey require things in writing in case of reconsideration or appeal action.

Personally this is one area of the DART ferral process that I dislike as it dies not allow additional information to be forwarded as copies although with any luck the officer will have added additional notes to state they have seen the ES40 cards.

[Elliebes]

My first benefit suspension for failure to attend(in which case I did) was 2 weeks and no notification at the time until the next time I signed on for a nasty shock. Then I was sanctioned another time for not producing my job log at the signing and I actually signed paperwork for this one the advisor was unreasonable and didnt listen to my explanation and I told him I felt I was being harassed. This male advisor replied by saying ''why would I want to be bothered harassing you dear....because at the end of every month I still get my salary!'' How could I sit and tell this snooty man over a desk Id been for a very worrying mammogram the same day and my head was all over the place and I forgot to pack my job log??

 

Also why would one job centre encourage me to put a complaint in about another job centre? My PA in my new job centre said I should put a complaint in about being sanctioned for 2 weeks by that man and for not having my job log and the mammogram incident because she said we wouldnt have done that here as you had good cause for your mistake. So it will be interesting to see if my signing card is good cause or they are just the same as the last place.

 

Well then on the advice in the last post I will wait and see if I get notified or asked for further information. If not and I get a nasty shock at my next signing then its off to Tribunal No. 3.

[flumps1976]

TBH I would most definitley complain about the sanction imposed for forgetting your job log (I'm assunming you mean your ES4 diary or equivalent own list) as unless you have been directed by an advisor to provide at each and every signing or appointment the we take verbal accounts for the 2 week peiod of Job Seeking.

Did you (if possible to remember) declare the reason that you hadn't provided it because you went for a mammogram which I can imagine would be worrying in itself. If it whad been me for instance as the officer you saw I would have asked you for your reasons for not attending or providing documents, and would have completed the relevant forms with you and they should have been referred to a team leader for consideration for good cause (which this circumstance does fall under) and therefore no sanction would have been impose.

Prior to April last year fts/fta with adverse decision resulted in your claim being closed and a rapid reclaim was required to set up the claim again. April 2010 then produced new guidance that sanctions would be imposed and tey would be 1 week for the first fs/fta and each subsequent fta/fts would be an automatic 2 week sanction.

I know it's a hassle but I would ask the BDC to provide details about the full dates of all sanctions applied to your claim. If you were not deemed to be considered as actively seeking for that period that you failed to provide you record of job seeking activity then yes it would be an automatic 2 weeks suspension whilst the decision was made and you would have completed a for to declare exactly what steps you took to look for work in each of the two weeks, if you applied for jobs and if anything prevented you for applying for jobs in that period. The decision would be considered and a decision made and input of the JSAPs system.

I would ask for an appointment with the Customer Service Manager (CSM) of the office write a list of questions that you need answers to and they will have to investigate further but will come back to you the answers . They may try and fob you off saying that they don't do this so then say you wabt an appointment with the CSM to make a formal complaint.

[Elliebes]

Sorry I made a mistake in the date of my sanction because that much has gone on at that job centre its a good job Ive written it all down.

 

The date was 28 October. This is from my log of events.

 

Claim SUSPENDED because of none attendance at the appointment I cancelled 3 times. And doubt surrounding my claim?? I have been given a letter to call the decision maker in 3 days time. I called in 4 days time because it was over the weekend to be told the sanction was still in force.

 

I was told I should be doing 18 actions between signings.

 

The events that happened are as happened at the time of the sanction below and this is just one of many incidents I have experienced at this particular job centre.

 

Arrived on time for signing put my card in the alphabetical box and was kept waiting for nearly an hour while my signing card got passed around from one advisor to another. I heard a woman ask another advisor ''what shall I do about ........and she shouted my surname''? I got passed onto the sanctioning advisor who said I was telling him I CANT work when I was trying to explain the hostel policy on residents working. I also tried to explain about the mammogram. I replied that I did not say any such thing. I said there are rules of which Im not clear on living in the YMCA regarding working and so this puts me in a difficult position with regard to taking a job. This advisor was putting words into my mouth. He was patronising and smug and rubbed his own salary in my face and also brought up the issue of my so called missed appointment the same day. (see last posting for info on this)

 

The first advisor who passed on my claim to the sanctioning advisor suggested I falsify my address on my Cvs and put the room number I am occupying in the hostel on the front of the address instead of the building number so that employers wouldnt know it was a hostel. Duuuhhh!

 

This constant running around was making me ill. I was being asked to come back and forth to the job centre sometimes twice a day. Im running up debts to the crisis loan and rent in the hostel as well as being forced to suffer severe hardship. Im in a catch 22 situation through no fault of my own. Im being penalised for being in this difficult situation. I’m being blocked from getting back on my feet and finding work and finding accommodation as if you have hostel rent arrears this can affect local authorities and private landlords finding you accommodation.

 

 

Welfare Rights 2910/10 Called to see an officer about the sanction He suggested I go and as to speak to a manager at the Job Centre about my claim and my hostel situation. I went to the Job Centre and was prevented from seeing a manager.

 

What happened after this was even worse.

 

Went down to the local Advocacy about my unreasonable suspended claim.

A student Advocate phoned up on my behalf. She was told on the phone by job centre telephone advisor that I was going to receive a payment at 1.30 that day and that I should expect a call.

 

Almost 5 mins of leaving the Wirral Advocacy I received a call from the job centre but I didn’t hear my phone because I was walking in traffic at 11.05. I checked my phone and suffered anxiety that I had not heard the call.

 

So I turned around immediately and walked straight to the job centre and phoned them back from the job centre phones because I had no credit to call them back anyway only to be told there was still a sanction on my claim and I wasn’t getting any money.

 

So I called the Advocacy from the job centre phones and she was adamant they had been told again they are paying me my money at 1.30 so phone them then.

 

I went back to the hostel. Which is about a mile away from the JC. You cant get a bus there.

 

Then I went back to the JC. When I phoned at 1.45 they said they the payment has been disallowed because I didn’t answer my phone when called.

 

I walked back to the Hostel and called the Advocacy from there and broke down telling them I cant take any more of this vindictive psychological torture.

 

I called the JC at 11.30. I called them again at 1.50

 

I used the job centre phones to call them back.

 

Twice the Advocacy told me they'd been told I was being paid money and that the sanction had been lifted.

 

When I phoned they told me the sanction had not been lifted and I wasn’t getting any money.

 

3.11.10 the Advocacy was told 3 times by the JC call centre the sanction had been lifted and I would get a payment.

 

I owe over 300 crisis loan and I owe 215 rent arrears caused by this Job Cetnre.

 

Suffering with anxiety and exhaustion At this point I burst into tears and couldnt go on.

 

About 6 weeks ago I collapsed with chronic stress and anxiety at my doctors. This is just a sample of what ive suffered at the hands of these people and thats when and why I changed my job centre.

Edited February 22, 2011 by Elliebes
extra information

[Elliebes]

4/11/10 Telephoned the job centre from the YMCA. I phoned from the Support Office in the YMCA. Angela a key worker was a witness to my phone call. Got told I the SANCTION has been lifted and I will get a payment and they specified the day as 10/11/10 Wednesday. This will mean again re-claiming housing benefit for the hostel I am occupying and I will be paid this money the day before my next signing date.

 

 

11/11/10 I signed on.

 

I took my job log but was not asked for it at this signing. While I was there I telephoned the benefits line spoke to a lady called Karen. I asked what happened to the promised Wednesday payment from my benefits promised to me and promised to my Advocate? She said there has been no payment and that the sanction has not been lifted.

[Elliebes]

To avoid confusion and sorry for the long complicated postings the missed appointment I was supposed to have had an appointment the same day as my signing 28.10.10 which was at 1pm the same day as the mammogram and I cancelled this appointment in advance. Once the day before when I called in to the JC in person because I knew I wouldnt feel up to discussing anything with anyone after going to the hospital in case I had bad news. The job centre still rang me on the bus coming back from the hospital and tried to coerce me to come to this appointment which was to discuss ESA that I voluntarily made in the first place at the last signing. I told the advisor who called that I had cancelled this appointment and did not wish to come and discuss anything at the moment. She said to me ok well I will book you in anyway for 1pm and you can come if you feel like it or not. I was so enraged by this I jumped off the bus on my way back from having my mammogram I went straight to the JC in person and cancelled it again. Something was obviously logged on my file on computer because the sanction advisor also brought this up at my signing again stating that I'd failed to attend this appointment. So I was sanctioned for not having my job log and missing an appointment that I had cancelled 3 times and he would not listen to reason.

 

Is this or is this not victimisation?

 

Yes I think I should complain about this.

[Elliebes]

I apologise for not linking this with my original thread because I cant find it.

 

The new job centre I changed to.. contacted my old job centre. The one that was giving me grief and treating me badly.

 

And I have been given the opportunity to re-appeal my benefit stoppage on the 16th September last year and also put in a letter of complaint about the personal advisor and the sanction on my benefit for forgetting my job log last year and over him rubbing his salary in my face at my sanctioning. As I said this was organised by my new job centre and actively encouraged by them. I didnt know I could do this as it was way past the date.....but I suspect they are tidying up their side of the street because Ive got a Tribunal pending in May on another matter with regard to this job centre so they are quickly covering their asses on my treatment. Ive got a dossier of incidents on this job centre which I would have produced at the Tribunal as them terrorising me. This is great! I may get back the money the old JC stopped.

 

My new job centre is like a breath of fresh air compared to the one I left.

 

If youre having grief out of your job centre then you can change. As long as your signing on you can sign on in Scotland if you choose to.

[watchinginvestigation2011]

Glad to hear you are happy at new job centre

[flumps1976]

I'm glad you are making process, I remember your original story from a couple of weeks ago.

[flumps1976]

bump!

[Life-Goes-On]

Edit> Removed link as was linking to same thread as they have been merged.

Edited March 17, 2011 by Life-Goes-On

[maroondevo52]

Hi, Elliebes.

 

To find all posts and threads by yourself, click on your username

 

I've merged your two threads on this subject, thanks for the 'heads up' Life-Goes-On.

 

Regards.

 

Scott.

[Elliebes]

Update to this thread. My new job center had been contacted by my old job centre and I was asked to re-appeal my benefit stoppage on the 16th September and fill in another GL24 form which I did and also provided evidence of the letter they sent saying I'd failed to sign my declaration. I was also asked to send a letter to the CSM with regard to my first 2 week sanction and what happened at my attendance on that date when I forgot my job log. I also produced evidence of my mammogram letter to be copied and sent. I also complained about the personal advisor rubbing his salary in my face and laughing as he was giving me a sanction. All in the letter. That lot has gone off for consideration with a view to my getting back the money that was stopped. Ive also got a Tribunal date for the 20th May 2011 for my habitual residency test appeal. I know its conjecture but I believe they are cleaning up their act because of the pending Tribunal.

[Elliebes]

Update again. The new Job centre didnt stop my benefits on the basis of that mistaken signing date they allowed me to have the payment but Im still waiting on the two new GL24s I was encourage to submit recently on the stoppage of 16 th September and also the sanction of the 23rd October.

 

If youre not happy with any decision or receive bad treatment write to a Customer Service Manager with a letter of complaint and a GL24.

 

Thanks for all your support.

[sam2006]

Hi,

 

I'm sorry to hear what you've been through and glad you're getting somewhere with it - what you're doing shows how important it is not to give up or the DWP will just get away with creating more misery at a time when people's lives are difficult enough.

 

You might like to take a look at this:

 

guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/apr/01/jobcentres-tricking-people-benefit-sanctions?