Bus Lane PCN

[WozzaLondon]

Hello

 

I have just been caught out by this ridiculous bus lane. I didn't receive the PCN so the first I know about this contravention is the enforcement notice. I telephoned the TFL number on the enforcement notice and they gave me a web link to view the images of my vehicle caught in the bus lane. Anyone else caught by this camera can use this link and enter their PCN number/ vehicle reg to see their images too. They stated that for a £10 admin fee they would send me the video file.

 

Redroutepayments.tfl.gov.uk

 

Just click on 'next steps' and follow instructions.

 

I am appealing this enforcement notice using information gleaned from this forum. I didn't even know I was in a bus lane and saw no reasonable signage at the time. This is clearly a badly signed lane and can't possibly be enforceable. I have also asked for a load of info under Freedom of Info Act so that if rejected I can prepare the best possible defence and demonstrate that this bus lane is both confusing and a revenue generating [problem].

 

Will keep this forum posted.

 

I am astonished that after so many years of confusion at this location that TFL appear to have done very little to improve compliance at the location and that unsuspecting motorists are still being caught out here.

[Keith_S]

Hi,

Its Keith here (post above you). I recently received a reply to my appeal "letting me off as an act of goodwill" in response to the representations I made to them. WOOOOOOO HOOOOOOOOOOO

 

I too never received the original PCN (suspicious huh ?)

 

Copy of my letter of appeal below

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

 

I wish to appeal against Enforcement Notice no: Insert PCN No here

Dated Insert Date Here

 

My grounds for appeal are that for there to be a breach of the bus lane order or regulation the restrictions provided for in that bus lane order or regulation must be adequately and/or lawfully signed. Failure adequately and/or lawfully to sign the restrictions means that no breach of the order or regulation has taken place.

 

My grounds for claiming that the 'Bus Lane' is not adequately and/or lawfully signed are as follows:

 

 

 

1) As per Traffic Signs Manual, Chapter 3, Section 15.9:

 

"Advance indication of a with-flow bus lane

is provided by the sign to diagram 958. Where the

speed limit is 20 mph or 30 mph, the sign should be

sited 30 m in advance of the lead-in taper formed by

the road marking to diagram 1010, with a minimum

clear visibility distance of 45 m. Where the speed limit

is 40 mph, the sign should be sited 45 m in advance

of the taper with a minimum clear visibility distance

of 60 m."

The 30 m advance traffic sign with a clear visibility distance of 45 m does not exist.

 

2) As per Chapter 5 of Traffic Signs Manual

A bus lane should be commenced by a diagonal taper in the form of a dashed line approximately 30m long to give drivers time to change lane.

This is not marked in accordance with the manual

3) As per Chapter 5 of the Traffic Signs Manual states in paragraph 17.7

“Deflection arrows to diagram 1014 should be placed 15 m and 30 m upstream of the start of the taper. The arrows should be 4.5 m long for speed limits up to 40 mph, 6 m for 50 or 60 mph, and 9 m for 70 mph.”

No such deflection arrows are placed in the specified positions.

As a mitigating circumstance I would like to mention that it can be seen from the still image you provided that I swerved at a late stage to go INTO the bus lane because I was following a van that obscured what signs were there. Proper, early and compliant signage would have avoided this happening.

Non-compliance because TFL couldn't be bothered to figure out a compliant layout is not good enough when the end result is penalties for otherwise innocent motorists.

 

Should these representations be rejected then please treat this as a request under the Freedom of Information Act 2000 for the following documents:

 

a) A copy of the bus lane order or regulation giving effect to the Bus Lane.

 

b) A copy of the Safety Audit for this road layout.

 

c) A copy of the engineer’s scale diagrams showing the layout of this Bus Lane, the road markings and the signage (including warnings of camera enforcement).

d) Copies of any approvals of deviations of signage from TSRGD.

 

e) Logs of maintenance visits verifying existence and condition of the signs.

 

f) Certification of type approval of the CCTV device.

g) Copies of the still images showing all the required information in the correct order.

 

h) The number of PCNs issued by TFL in respect of this location.

 

i) The number of PCNs issued by TFL in respect of this location and cancelled by you following informal challenges.

 

j)The number of PCNs issued by TFL in respect of this location and cancelled by you following formal appeal to you.

 

k) The number of PCNs issued by TFL in respect of this location and cancelled following appeal to a PATAS adjudicator.

 

l)The number of PCNs issued by TFL in respect of this location and not pursued by you for any other reason.

 

m) The average monthly penalty revenue raised by TFL in respect of this location (north and south-bound).

 

m) The total penalty revenue raised by TFL at this location since 31-07-2008 when this road has been reported by BBC to be up for review.

 

o) Number of complaints received with respect to this location from Motorists, both formal and informal and all records of action taken if any.

 

 

I look forward to hearing a positive reply from you shortly.

Best wishes,

Keith S

Good luck to everyone who fights these ridiculous PCN's

[HYMN AND MI]

OK; but I would add this, too:

 

1. TFL should be challenged re the lack of original PCN as the penalty has now increased, thus removing your right to pay at a discounted rate. There is no automatic/legal right to informally appeal (a PCN) though most councils do consider these. I would put them to strict proof that the original PCN was ever served and require another copy.

 

2. Information found in the TSM Manuals is mostly guidance, unfortunately. TSRGD 2002 is the law so it is best to research what is stated there.

 

3. Has any DfT special authorisation been given re this lane? A FOI request would answer this.

 

4. Rather than phoning councils, always communicate in writing. If you have to phone, record it. You need to establish the date of the alleged offence, the date of issue of the PCN and the date of issue of the Enforcement Notice. They should provide photo evidence by post or online. They must prove to PATAS thall all signage was correct and in place on the day - either via photos and/or video evidence.

 

5. Where is the Traffic Management Order? This should have details of signage.

Edited January 13, 2012 by HYMN AND MI

[Jay Jay 23]

WOW...........I too received a penalty charge in the post this morning from driving on this bus lane. I was absolutely oblivious that I had committed any offence. I was travelling home in the early hours, not one other car on the road and as such no traffic flow to follow. I have never been and do not know the area and the Sat Nav was telling me to bear left.

 

I was so incensed that I thought I would google it and lo and behold found this forum. I am going to contest it, I have never had a penalty notice in 33yrs, no points and don't even park on yellow lines when I shouldn't.

 

If I go along the same lines as KeithS would that be okay? I am loathed to swallow it as I certainly wasn't using the bus lane to get ahead of traffic I was the only car on the road!

[Eltham Guest]

Go for it Jay Jay 23. We received a PCN here in January. Like you I felt strongly enough to look on line and, finding this thread, decided to appeal. TfL have agreed to cancel the charge, but as with others this is just as a "gesture of goodwill" and because it was our first representation. They maintain that the signs meet statutory requirements and that the onus is on the driver to be aware of road signs. They make no concession on the key point that the position of the signs makes this virtually impossible, especially when there is no other traffic, and even more so after dark.

 

So we got the right result, and I'd like to thank everyone for their posts which were so useful to us, but I still feel that the situation is unfair on motorists and many others will be caught out here, not all of whom will find this web site. I propose to write to the local MP - I think the bus lane sits in the Eltham constituency.

 

TfL's stated reasons for the restrictions are (i) restricting the use of roads by heavy vehicles to preserve the amenity of the area and (ii) facilitating the passage of public service vehicles, which are fair enough. However it's clear that this is only an issue at busy times, so for me the primary objection is that the bus lane is in operation 24 hours a day.

 

(That's the polite way of putting it. The blunt way is that the implementation of the bus lane and signs is so clearly unfair that one can't resist the suspicion that the only reason the arrangement is still in place is because of the revenue it generates.)

[Jay Jay 23]

Thanks Eltham Guest I have gone for it and sent in my appeal. Does anyone know how long I will have to wait? Was just thinking if it will take me over the initial 14 days and then have the fine doubled to £130 if they don't agree to cancel it.

 

I am still so angry, as you said during the course of the day I could accept the purpose of a restiction but not at gone midnight when I was the only car on the road. It is indeed a 'licence to print money'.

 

Fingers crossed I get a favourable response.

[nellgwynn]

I got a PCN like everyone else here last month, sent in an informal appeal and got a reply back this week by post that it was rejected.

Also, they responded to the FOI requests (seems like it was outsourced to a company called nsl who replied with the FOI requests) by email and the usual stuff about all signage being proper and lawful etc.

Now they have given 14 days to pay up at reduced rate, or to wait for enforcement notice.

 

Has anyone else here been rejected at the informal reps stage, but then been successful at the formal reps or adjudicator stage?!?

 

There is the temptation to just yield and pay the reduced fine, but also there is the urge to fight it all the way and not be conned like this.

It would help to know that others have been successful in the later appeal stages even after having being rejected with the informal representation.

 

Jay Jay, the reply back only took about 1 week but the reduced fine is on hold till they get back to you and then you get another 14 days to pay at that rate.

Good luck!

[Jay Jay 23]

Thank you all. I probably would of paid the fine and taken it on the chin but having read some of the posts on here it gave me the back up and confidence to question the penalty notice and I have received a reply back from Transport of London, they have....... 'as a gesture of goodwill' cancelled the penalty even though "it does not form an acceptance of my representation!"

 

Whatever at least I didn't have to pay for what I thought was an unfair and ridiculous situation.

[WizardOfLeeds]

Hi everyone,

 

I really hope somebody out there can help me!

 

I woke up last week to set off to work, only to go outside and find my car was clamped by JBW group relating to a Bus Lane offence in Leeds.

 

The Baliff was an arse and turns out he clamped the at at 4am then sat waiting for me to get up and go to work. He showed me no documentation and when I offered him a cup of tea he rang the police and said I was being offensive and threatening him??? Anyway while I'm talking-to the police he calls the row truck inflating the price even more to £560. I am

Now fuming, late for work, have a police van and a row truck outside my house on a quite well to do estate.

 

To put it to bed I pay this arse the £560 he is demanding and he removes the clamp.

 

I had no notices fromthe council or from JBW and it turns out they were sending letters and notices to ROAD instead of LANE. The court order was for Lane and not my house which is on road, and was also parked on my drive.

 

Basically if I could ask you legally swept up people to offer some advice about what I should do now? If I would have recieved the £80 fine I would have just paid it but didn't realise the charges were going up and up as I wasn't getting any letters??

 

Advice please, thank you in advance

[HYMN AND MI]

Never been as far as this down the enforcement process but I would suggest contacting the TEC at http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/northampton-bulk-centre/traffic-enforcement-centre/ and also the Council to explain your position. As far as the TEC are concerned, you should state that you had received no documents at all from the council and that the bailiffs provided you with none either and that you are making a complaint about them in this regard. What did the Police say about all this?

 

Click on Faq's on TEC site: http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/northampton-bulk-centre/traffic-enforcement-centre/frequently-asked-questions.htm

 

Good luck.

[crem]

You will do better I think posting this in the bailiff section as, although it started as a traffic issue, that is now no longer relevant and you need advise on how to handle a bailiff.

 

Post it again over there and someone like tomtubby should be able to give you better advise.

[HYMN AND MI]

Receiving a bailiff visit for an unpaid PCN...never received the ticket:

This is probably the most common query we receive and normally comes to light if a bailiff company has located and clamped a car after detecting it by use of their ANPR equipped vehicles. Not surprisingly, the owner of the vehicle is adamant that they have no knowledge of ever receiving a parking ticket. Only by contacting the Traffic Enforcement Centre do they discover that in fact the PCN, and all the subsequent documents had been sent to a previous address or that the address was incorrect in some way. As the bailiff has a copy of the warrant on his computer he would be well aware of the address where all of the documents had gone.......but will not tell you this !! If this has happened to you, you will have grounds to file an Out of Time late Statutory Declaration..... even if you have previously had to pay the bailiff. You will find more on this under our ANPR section. In such cases, you may wish to contact our office for more in depth advice.

 

 

This is from Bailiff Advice Online site though I cannot seem to link it. According to the above, contact the TEC to file an out of time statutory declaration.

 

The aims here are clearly:

 

1. To get your money back and

2. To reset the PCN to first stage of enforcement process so you can either challenge or pay it. I would not be making any comments about culpability at this stage re the PCN.

Edited February 25, 2012 by HYMN AND MI

[bmu]

Help again please!

I was done some time ago on the kdbrooke park bus lane, caught completely unawares. With help of this forum I got the 'goodwill gesture' from TFL.

I have now received a ticket re another bus lane I had no idea I was contravening. The notice gives only the name of the street, no postcode. I seem to remember one of the grounds suggested for representations related to 'imprecise location'. Could I challenge the new notice on this basis?

[HYMN AND MI]

Which authority and which street, please?

[bmu]

'Broad Lane'. There are several in London and my route home on Sunday (from a destination I have never been to before) could have taken me through at least two of those at around the time specified, but I suspect it was one in North London.

[HYMN AND MI]

I have to go to work in a minute; but, which authority? Standard case used in this inexact locus argument is Adamou v Haringey but need to see the PCN and/or know which council!

[bmu]

Sorry. TfL. Can upload notice when I remember how, but will anonymise first.

[bmu]

Anonymising only because you never know who'd looking and seem to remember seeing advice to do that before. No offence intended!

[HYMN AND MI]

Anonymising only because you never know who'd looking and seem to remember seeing advice to do that before. No offence intended!

 

No worries. Can you give us a Google link as you say there are several roads with the same name? I assume the PCN is the same wording as the one at the beginning of this thread?

[HYMN AND MI]

[HYMN AND MI]

Sorry, do not have case number for that one above but here is Adamou v Haringey:

 

Register Kept Under Regulation 20 of the Road Traffic (Parking Adjudicators)(London) Regulations 1993, as amended or Paragraph 21 of the Schedule to the Civil Enforcement of Parking Contraventions (England) Representations and Appeals Regulations 2007, as applicable

 

 

 

Case Reference:2060381000 Appellant:Mrs Gina Adamou Authority:Haringey VRM:Y733GVX PCN:HY72193896 Contravention Date:05 Jul 2006 Contravention Time:16:17 Contravention Location:High Road N22 Penalty Amount:£100.00 Contravention:Entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited Decision Date:21 Oct 2006 Adjudicator:Hugh Cooper Appeal Decision:Allowed Direction:cancel the Penalty Charge Notice. Reasons:The contravention alleged is entering and stopping in a box junction when prohibited. The prohibition is contained in the Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, Schedule 19 Part 2 paragraph 7. This provides as follows.

 

"7 (1) Except when placed in the circumstances described in paragraph 8, [box junctions] shall each convey the prohibition that no person shall cause a vehicle to enter the box junction so that the vehicle has to stop within the box junction due to the presence of stationary vehicles.

(2) The prohibition in sub-paragraph (1) does not apply to any person

(a) who causes a vehicle to enter the box junction (other than a box junction at a roundabout) for the purpose of turning right: and

(b) stops it within the box junction for so long as it is prevented from completing the right turn by oncoming vehicles or other vehicles which are stationary whilst waiting to complete a right turn."

In this case the Council served a Penalty Charge Notice (PCN) on Mrs Adamou alleging that the vehicle of which she was the registered keeper had contravened this regulation "in High Road N22".

 

Mrs Adamou says that she telephoned the Council on receipt of the PCN and asked them about this contravention. She was told that it had taken place at the junction of Ewart Grove and High Road N22. She pointed out to the person she spoke to that there was no box junction at that location. When the Council served photographs with their Notice of Rejection they made no mention of Ewart Grove.

 

The Council finally stated in their Case Summary that the box junction is actually at the junction of High Road and Bounds Green Road; the junction with Ewart Grove is simply where the camera is located. In a letter subsequent to her Notice of Appeal Mrs Adamou argues as to whether or not the events recorded on the video recording actually amount to a contravention.

 

However I do not have to decide that issue, because the confusion that has evidently arisen in Mrs Adamou's communications with the Council clearly demonstrates that the original PCN failed to comply with the requirements of Section 4(8)(a)(i) of the London Authorities and Transport for London Act 2003. This provides that the PCN "must...state...the grounds on which the council... believe that the penalty charge is payable with respect to the vehicle".

 

The Council's own evidence shows that they have no fewer than 9 cameras in High Road N22, 6 of which are located at junctions. Whether or not all are devoted to monitoring compliance with box junctions, it makes clear that this is a long road with a considerable number of junctions. It is evident from Mrs Adamou's case that she did not know on receipt of the PCN where the contravention was alleged to have occurred.

 

Had the PCN specified "High Road N22 at its junction with Bounds Green Road", then Mrs Adamou would have known where to look. As it was, by simply stating "in High Road N22", I find that the PCN did not state the grounds on which the Council believed that the penalty charge was payable. Those grounds must be expressed in terms that allow the recipient of a PCN to know not just the nature of the alleged contravention, but where it was said to have occurred.

 

I find therefore that no valid PCN was served on Mrs Adamou, and so the Council cannot enforce this penalty charge.

 

[i would add that there is considerable doubt in my mind as to whether the layout of the box junction markings in this case actually comply with the requirements of Diagrams 1043 or 1044 in Schedule 6 to the [i]Traffic Signs Regulations and General Directions 2002, neither of which appears to allow for box junction markings opposite the mouth of a T-junction, as opposed to across it. Furthermore it appears that there is a right turn filter lane on the main road, so that the box junction markings only cover one lane. However I do not make a formal determination on this issue. It maybe that in future cases the Council will feel the need, and be able, to clarify how this layout complies with either of the diagrams.]

 

[/i]Tactically, some confusion needs to be generated in your communications with TfL. I have ideas but am waiting for a response to which Broad Lane, please.

 

[bmu]

No worries. Can you give us a Google link as you say there are several roads with the same name? I assume the PCN is the same wording as the one at the beginning of this thread?

 

Sorry, don't understand request re Google link ? I really don't know which Broad Lane it is meant to be, but I am assuming the one in Hornsey - though that looks too tiny to have a bus lane in it. Could also be the one in the City, near Liverpool Street, my route took me close to both, I think. Am happy to upload the notice, can't quite remember how I uploaded before. As a link to "Up Yours" I think. Give me 20 mins or so.

[bmu]

Hope this works

[bmu]

 

Thought I had put in a link to the PCN. Trying again....

[bmu]