CCJ Papers received from Black Horse - Help!

[CAGisforME]

Hi everyone,

 

It's been a long time since I was on the boards here, but we are in a bit of a fix.

 

Having started to sort out our debts and contacted National Debtline in order to go onto a DMP we have received Court correspondence from Black Horse. They are seeking a CCJ for just under £11,000.

 

We do owe them the money and we have been offering instalments (having sent them our I & E) but they have completely ignored every letter we have sent them.

 

The advice received from National Debtline is to "admit" and give full I and E details in order to propose an instalment. They said that Black Horse would accept this. However, I am, from reading a few forums now, a little sceptical about this.

 

We have NOT got a CCA, so I don't even know if the debt is legal. I am worried that if the CCJ is granted at an unaffordable instalment rate we will get into a similar situation with other creditors.

 

The National Debtline will not accept us onto a DMP until the CCJ is sorted. I just don't know enough about all this to know what to do next. We only have until 27th November to respond. I wondered whether it would be worth asking for it to be transferred to our local court? But even then I am not sure how this would make a difference.

 

If you can, please help!

 

I am so cross with myself and feel so ashamed. I have been very ill and only recently started to deal with the debt we have. I have a budget sheet ready and should be able to offer Black Horse around £170 per month. Would the Court accept this or insist on more?

 

I need urgent advice please!

[CAGisforME]

I have now scared myself stupid by reading some of the other cases on here!

 

I'd be really grateful if someone could advise us as to where to start with this? We don't have a Credit Agreement from Black Horse and I am fairly sure that we didn't receive a Letter Before Action either (although I will be searching through all the letters etc tonight) But we have so little time to deal with it or get BH to send us information.

 

Can someone please advise?

[CAGisforME]

I've been reading other threads and have checked our paperwork. I've just realised that they've sent a Summons to both me and my husband. I've also realised that this was done through a "bulk clearing" centre. Whatever that is.

 

I'd really appreciate some help with this as we haven't a clue what to do now. We tried so hard to get BH to accept reduced payments when we realised we were struggling, but they've point blank refused to respond to our letters.

 

I know I need to ask for the Credit Agreement, but have no idea how to go about answering the Court Claim etc in the meantime.

[citizenB]

Responding to S.O.S.

 

First of all, there is no reason for you to be ashamed. Circumstances change and they are usually beyond our control.

 

Ok..

 

Can you please let us know the date the claim was issued. You have a specific time table to stick to otherwise a CCJ will be given in default.

 

The time scales are :

 

Date of issue of claim (you will find this on the top right hand side of the claim form)

 

From date of issue of claim you + 5 days for receipt. You then + 14 days to acknowledge the claim and advise if you are going to defend or admit.

 

If you are going to defend then you click the button or tick the box for a further 14 days.

 

Next, can you let us know what the claim is actually for.

 

Left hand side of the Claim form under the addresses you will see what they say they are taking you to court for. If you can type that up, minus any person detais then we will see what information you need.

 

Who are the solicitors ?

 

If you can answer the questions above, I will send out some S.O.S's for you to see where we go next.

[dx100uk]

hey calm down

 

its not that bad......

 

NDL strike again

dont exactly like that advise .

 

scan the required letters/agreements/sheets

remove all pers info inc barcodes etc but leave all figures and dates.

goto one of the many free online pdf converter websites

convert the image to pdf format.

open a new msg box here

hit go advanced below the msg box

hit manage attachments below that box

hit the add files button on the top right

hit select files, navigate to your file on your pc

hit upload files

NB:you can set where it goes in the post by hitting insert inline.

the hit reply button

 

 

dx

[gh2008]

Popping in as requested by cB

 

We need more info as dx has said above. At this stage you have soooooo many options but one of them is not panicking!!

 

We've pretty much all been there and many of us are still going there - - must check today's post sometime .....

 

anyway, let's have some more details, credit card, loan, overdraft? date? basically as much as you've got, the more info we all have the easier it is - Information is Power these days.

 

Worst comes to the worst, your monthly payment proposal is more than adequate and will be accepted by the Court (IMHO) BUT if you have any other debts you also need to balance those payments out as well.

 

You should also be thinking of checking the validity of all your debts to ensure that what you are intending to repay is accurate and fair.

 

Good luck & smile

 

gh

[CAGisforME]

Oh, THANK YOU all so much for coming to help!

 

Ok, today I have been through everything, had a good bin out and completed a Budget Sheet, carefully working out pro-rata payments to all creditors. This particular one we can allocate £110 per month to.

 

Ok, let's get to the questions asked above.

 

CitzenB

 

Claim was issued 11/11/2010 and received by us on Wednesday (17th November) It's for a Loan (Joint Names)

 

The Solicitors are: SCM Solicitors, Cockfosters Road, Barnet. (Same address as Black Horse department that has been writing to us, before we removed our heads from the sand)

 

The POC says:

 

The Claimant's claim is for the balance due under a Credit agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974, following default in payment.

Date of Agreement: xx/xx/08 (Actual date written there is correct)

Parties: Black Horse Ltd and Defendant(s)

Agreement Number: xxxxxxxxxxx

 

The Claimant's claim is for the balance DUE £10,xxx

 

dx100uk

 

My Husband (who is the more IT savvy of the two of us) says he will kick the scanner until it works and do as you say. I hope to be able to have this posted up by tomorrow (Monday) night.

 

gh2008

 

Thanks for your calming words! I am trying really hard not to panic. Home circumstances don't help (long story). However, I've managed get all unnecessary stuff filed away, a full budget sheet done and have fired off letters offering payment to all the others. (I have SAR'd and CCA's them all, bar this one would you believe) some time ago, and then lost track when I got ill.

 

 

So, to summarise, I need to know what to do next. I think I am right in saying I need to get the Agreement from them so that you guys can see whether it's a legal agreement.

 

We have BOTH received a summons. Should I acknowledge receipt and say, for the time being, that I am going to defend it?

 

Thanks again for coming to my rescue!

[gh2008]

Ok, your first job is to get a CPR31.12 letter off to them.

 

Their POC is woefully inadequate - how have they become entitled to the balance due rather than any outstanding arrears?? How did they calculate the sum claimed??

 

Is the sum claimed about right? were there any penalties or other charges applied to the account?

This needs to be clarified. Did you receive a Default Notice? If you did, keep it safe and do not scan it on here, pm a copy to cB (who I am sure won't mind circulating it to the relevant parties)

Keep the details of any DN off the thread for the moment.

 

Yes, you also need a copy of the agreement, as that is mentioned (and therefore disclosed) in their POC you could ask for a copy with a CPR31.14 request, however you might as well combine that with the DN.

 

I'll dig out a link to a CPR31.12 request for you.

 

MAKE SURE you acknowledge within the time limit - you can easily do it online, and yes put down defend all until the claimant has sent the info.

 

Is the claimant exactly the same name as the party to the loan?

[gh2008]

Here's a link to a letter. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?254956-Me-v-Tesco-Triton-Incasso&p=2877650&viewfull=1#post2877650

 

DO NOT just copy it and send it off, make sure it makes sense for YOUR case and also make sure you understand WHY you are sending it and what it means.

 

Keep smiling

[CAGisforME]

Thanks so much gh2008, I will look at that now. I will also register online and defend the case, for both my husband and myself. We both received identical Court Claim papers.

 

I have been through the paperwork received by Black Horse before the CC papers.

 

Firstly, the address we have always had for BH has been in Edinburgh, but the Court Papers give an address in Cardiff. Not sure if this is relevant?

 

They are claiming £10,715.77, which is NOT what the most recent statement says!

 

11.11.10 - Received letter we must pay the balance immediately, or they will be entitled to start legal proceedings.

(Is this a Letter Before Action? As it doesn't state that it is)

 

16/10/10 Default Notice with sum of arrears requested. (I will get this scanned tomorrow)

 

23.9/10 - Letter from Nationwide Collection Service - "Final Notice" in Red, if they don't hear from us they will pass it back to the Creditor.

 

22/9/10 - Statement showing balance at £10,489.17. (with an amount overdue at £2k plus)

 

21/9/10 Collection Activity Fee Advice £30

 

8/9/10 Nationwide Collections Letter - pay up or else!

 

According to the two statements I have a Collection Activity fee (£30) has been added every month since April 2010. Previous to that they had charged us £25 twice before, when our Standing Order payment arrived late.

 

We wrote to them in June 2010 (sending Income and Expenditure), but they never responded.

 

The balance in April 2010 was £9953.94, so where the rest has come from I don't know. Presumably charges?

 

We also received a Default Notice in April of this year, also only requesting us to settle the arrears, not the full sum outstanding. (Do you need to see this one too?)

 

I promise to go and have a good look at the CPR letter and ensure I understand it all before getting one sent off, with the relevant info to our case on it.

 

Thanks again for your help!

[CAGisforME]

Registered Online - Did the AOS for both of us (individually) and stated that we defend the whole claim.

 

Now to work on the CPR Letter.

[CAGisforME]

Right, had a read through the CPR letter - I think I understand it (!)

 

There is one thing I don't quite get, if you could help?

 

1. the agreement giving rise to the obligation to xxxxx for the credit advanced. You will appreciate that in an ordinary case and by reason of the provisions of CPR PD 16 para 7.3, where a claim is based upon a written agreement, a copy of the contract or documents constituting the agreement should be attached to or served with the particulars of claim and the original(s) should be available at the hearing. Further, that any general conditions incorporated in the contract should also be attached.

 

Is the xxxxxx ME or Black Horse? (Sorry to be a bit thick, but I obviously want to make sure I get this correct!

 

Thanks again!

[citizenB]

Thanks so much gh2008, I will look at that now. I will also register online and defend the case, for both my husband and myself. We both received identical Court Claim papers.

 

I have been through the paperwork received by Black Horse before the CC papers.

 

Firstly, the address we have always had for BH has been in Edinburgh, but the Court Papers give an address in Cardiff. Not sure if this is relevant?

 

This will probably be their registered office, so probably not relevant.

They are claiming £10,715.77, which is NOT what the most recent statement says!

 

You can ask in your CPR letter for statements showing how they arrive at this balance.

11.11.10 - Received letter we must pay the balance immediately, or they will be entitled to start legal proceedings.

(Is this a Letter Before Action? As it doesn't state that it is)

 

I guess it could be construed as one. They would normally say something like, if you dont pay up within so many days we WILL start legal action.

 

 

16/10/10 Default Notice with sum of arrears requested. (I will get this scanned tomorrow)

 

Please do not put this on the forum. PM this information to either gh2008 or me.

23.9/10 - Letter from Nationwide Collection Service - "Final Notice" in Red, if they don't hear from us they will pass it back to the Creditor.

 

22/9/10 - Statement showing balance at £10,489.17. (with an amount overdue at £2k plus)

 

21/9/10 Collection Activity Fee Advice £30

 

8/9/10 Nationwide Collections Letter - pay up or else!

 

According to the two statements I have a Collection Activity fee (£30) has been added every month since April 2010. Previous to that they had charged us £25 twice before, when our Standing Order payment arrived late.

 

You may be able to claim these charges back, I realise in the grand scheme of things, £300 isnt very much, but it does help reduce the outstanding balance.

We wrote to them in June 2010 (sending Income and Expenditure), but they never responded.

 

The balance in April 2010 was £9953.94, so where the rest has come from I don't know. Presumably charges?

 

Could also be interest still be charged. This should be shown on your statements.

We also received a Default Notice in April of this year, also only requesting us to settle the arrears, not the full sum outstanding. (Do you need to see this one too?)

 

So you received a DN in October 2010 and April 2010 ? Did you pay anything after receiving the DN in April 2010 .

 

I promise to go and have a good look at the CPR letter and ensure I understand it all before getting one sent off, with the relevant info to our case on it.

 

Thanks again for your help!

 

Right, had a read through the CPR letter - I think I understand it (!)

 

There is one thing I don't quite get, if you could help?

 

 

 

Is the xxxxxx ME or Black Horse? (Sorry to be a bit thick, but I obviously want to make sure I get this correct!

 

Thanks again!

 

This bit means that if they had sent this direct from your home court, they would have needed to submit to you a FULLY particularised claim and attached all the relevant paperwork mentioned in the claim form.

 

CCBC, Northampton is a cheap shortcut for them whereby they are limited to a fixed amount of text and there is no need for them to attach the documents mentioned. Usually because they dont bliddy well have them to hand when they fire out the claim forms.

 

 

When you sent them a budget sheet, did you send it recorded or special delivery mail and keep the receipt. Did you also check that the letter was received by them. You can check online at the Royal Mail Track n Trace website.

 

It is up to you whether you wish to defend or enter into some form of repayment plan with them.

 

Is this a secured or unsecured loan ? The reason you have both received claim forms is due to being joint signatories. This gives them a double shot at obtaining a judgment.

 

When they sent statements, DN's LBAs etc, was it to you separately or jointly.

 

Send your CPR letter off by either Recorded or Special Delivery mail, keep the receipt and check in a few days to ensure it has been delivered. Print off the receipt with their signature as being received.

[gh2008]

Just to follow on from cB - the XXX is you - basically that is asking for a copy of the agreement.

 

At the moment you are asking for them to justify their claim - they haven't sent you proof of their entitlement to claim the full balance (the Consumer Credit Act has a series of hoops that the creditor must leap through in order to claim the full balance) although I do notice they set the DCAs on you (presumably demanding the full balance) way before issuing a DN ..... interesting

 

What is this account?? loan or overdraft or HP? only guessing as it's in joint names.

 

Get the info in, have a good look at it, then you can decide best course of action.

S129 app to Court for time to pay (binding on creditor and no charging order)

negotiate with creditor and agree repayment with either a Consent Order or Tomlin Order

Defend with a Part Admission with offer to pay (the balance you calculate)

Defend in full - if the agreement is duff and/or other issues - but you will need to be on top form and/or if your case is good try and get professional help - for an individual to take the banks on and win is getting more difficult and IMHO you need to be quite proactive in order to win.

So, this means that if you do not get a satisfactory reply to the CPR request within the time limit you write demanding to know when they will comply, if not answer then you make an application to Court ordering to them to reply.

 

Enough rambling

 

gh

[CAGisforME]

Hi,

 

And again thank you for all your help. I've had a couple of good night's sleep (for the first time in ages) and feel a lot more confident in dealing with this now. Coupled with sorting out a budget sheet and re-jigging some payments, I feel confident moving forward.

 

So far I have acknowledged via MCOL the Court papers.

 

I am in the process of completing the CPR, now that I understand it properly. Thanks for your patience.

 

Citizen B

 

Thanks, I will ask, in the CPR letter for a statement of account, in order to ascertain that the figures are correct. The most recent statement we have does show that they are still adding interest on.

 

When we received the DN in April I got together a recent Income and Expenditure that I had done (nowhere near as comprehensive as I have done now) and posted it off. Unfortunately I didn't think to send it RD, so I have no proof they received it. I only have a copy of it on my PC. (and a few others from prior to that).

 

How I'd like to play this is, having given it some thought, ensure that they have disclosed all documents pertinent to the case and ensure that they have an enforceable agreement. Should that be the case I would like to negotiate with them in order to make affordable repayments (as per the budget sheet and not giving them any advantage over other creditors). If they haven't got an enforceable agreement then my husband and I are happy to see where this leads us.

 

To answer your question the Loan in unsecured and I'd like it to stay that way!!

 

As soon as the CPR is complete I will ensure it goes Special Delivery tomorrow.

 

gh2008

 

Thanks for your advice. I am starting, by reading a lot on this forum in particular, to get a handle on this. As you'll see from what I've written above, I'm determined to get them to at least prove what we owe and that they have an enforceable agreement. Once that's established we'll go from there.

 

It's a Loan, unsecured, in both names.

 

So...........Two questions........

 

Is there a particular way I should ask for the statements/proof of amount in the CPR letter?

Do I send 2 CPR letters, one from me and one from my husband, or just one, with both names on it?

 

Once I know the answers to those two I can complete the CPR and get it posted.

 

Thanks again!

[emandcole]

Looks like I've arrived a bit late

 

Great stuff above as always and interesting to read that National Debtline is supposedly authorised to decide repayment plans on behalf of the creditor?! Yes, any default notice you have please scan and send to those listed above who will circulate it as necessary, hopefully you kept the envelopes too?

 

Presuming as it's such a recent loan that the agreement will be correct but with the arrogance of the banks you never know. Important we pursue section 61 compliance as opposed to just section 78 but would again suspect a signature or two will be present given the date - we'll find out soon enough I'm sure.

 

Either way we'll do what we can to offer support and at least ensure the banks play fair - that is after all what we are all after eh? Look forward to seeing what you have as and when and yes, stay positive! 'Tis only money' as a wise man once said

[CAGisforME]

Thanks EmandCole!

 

My husband has not been able to kick the scanner hard enough and it's refusing to work! I am working on it and hope to be able to have the DN scanned and sent to folk as soon as possible, please bear with me as the scanner is temperamental to say the least.

 

Unfortunately I didn't keep the envelopes, no. However, I have kept everything they've sent since January 2010 and a few from before that. (Hindsight is a wonderful thing eh? I'd have kept them if I knew they were relevant)

 

As I've already said, I have no issue with coming to an agreement as to affordable instalments IF (and it's a debatable IF at the moment) they have an enforceable agreement and they have played by the rules.

 

Yes, National Debtline were insistant that we didn't defend it, but just admitted it whereupon they told me that BH "Will definately" agree to the instalments offered. I am SO pleased I came straight here (once I'd remembered my password!)

 

Thanks again everyone, I'm feeling positive and in control, for the first time in I don't know how long!

 

[gh2008]

Is there a particular way I should ask for the statements/proof of amount in the CPR letter?

Do I send 2 CPR letters, one from me and one from my husband, or just one, with both names on it?

 

Once I know the answers to those two I can complete the CPR and get it posted.

 

Thanks again!

 

3. Statements covering the period ##/##/#### to ##/##/#### showing how the balance claimed has been calculated

 

or something like that

 

1 letter, signed by both - I am presuming it is a single claim with 2 defendants (i.e. you both have the same case no.) as opposed to 2 claims.

 

If it is 2 claims then 1 will need to be thrown out - but I am sure it will be a single claim.

 

Take a picture if you can't get the scanner working

[CAGisforME]

Digi Camera on charge as I type!

 

Ok, I've got the CPR letter done. I've asked for the statement of Account from inception to the current date. Will this suffice?

 

We have definate;y been hit with £25-£30 of charges per month since March. Can we claim these back? And if so how? Do we wait until we have the statement of account, so we can work out how much it totals up to?

 

Thanks everyone for your help.

 

To clarify, it's one case and one case number, with two defendants, me and OH.

 

As soon as I have the pics of the DNs and LBAs etc I'll PM them.

[nicklea]

J

Get the info in, have a good look at it, then you can decide best course of action.

S129 app to Court for time to pay (binding on creditor and no charging order)

negotiate with creditor and agree repayment with either a Consent Order or Tomlin Order

Defend with a Part Admission with offer to pay (the balance you calculate)

Defend in full - if the agreement is duff and/or other issues - but you will need to be on top form and/or if your case is good try and get professional help - for an individual to take the banks on and win is getting more difficult and IMHO you need to be quite proactive in order to win.

So, this means that if you do not get a satisfactory reply to the CPR request within the time limit you write demanding to know when they will comply, if not answer then you make an application to Court ordering to them to reply.

 

Just to add to the above. This is very very important. You can not make any sort of proper defence if you have not received this information. If you have read elsewhere on this site about embarrassed defences then please ignore anything you've read. These embarrassed defences potentially leave you open to very large orders for costs from the claimant.

 

Have a read of this sticky for more information:-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?159445-Getting-Them-To-Reveal-Their-Vitals.-Using-CPR-31.14-to-Your-Advantage

 

These stickies also have useful information:-

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?241827-Legal-Action-how-to-start-off.-IMPORTANT-IF-YOURE-BEING-SUED

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?283443-Embarrased-Defences-and-the-problems-with-them

 

If you do not receive a response from the claimant within 7 days you MUST make an application to the court for an order to inspect these documents. This will cost 75 quid but you will get your money back. The reason for doing this is that it will give you extra time to submit your defence. How can you submit your defence if the claimant has not supplied you with all the documents they are relying on. See the link

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?159445-Getting-Them-To-Reveal-Their-Vitals.-Using-CPR-31.14-to-Your-Advantage

 

already given above, the bit you need is on the 2nd or 3rd page

[CAGisforME]

Thanks for the information Nicklea - I have read quite a lot now and, whilst other cases are interesting and can be useful for understanding how it all works, I have no intention of just taking off and doing my own thing. The advice on this thread is very valuable.

 

I have just finished my CPR, which will go RD tomorrow. I will check the RM website religiously until they sign for it.

 

I will update the thread accordingly.

 

In the meantime I have sent images of the two DNs and the supposed LBA to Citizen B, which I have just realised was dated 11th November, the day of the Claim. It actually arrived to us on the Monday (15th), the day before the Court Papers arrived on our doorstep. So minutes "before action" as opposed to days etc!

 

When Citizen B has sent copies to those interested I look forward to taking more valuable advice.

 

*Scuttles off to read the links in Nicklea's post*

[CAGisforME]

Just a quick update, having gone through everything!

 

Latest DN we received was dated 16/10/10, giving us until 4/11/10 to pay arrears. (Copy of this sent to Citizen B) - Hopefully someone will be able to tell if this is legit or dodgy.

 

Last letter received from Black Horse (which they may claim is a Letter Before Action) dated 11th November.

 

Court Claim initiated 11th November (the same day as LBA, but arrived a day later in post)

 

Acknowledgement of Service done yesterday (for both of us)

 

CPR Letter going tomorrow (23/11/10) to Black Horse.

 

I'm going to do some reading up and will update as soon as I can. Firstly with when they sign for the CPR.

 

Many many thanks to all who have helped so far. I am taking all advice on board and trying to read up as much as I can in the meantime.

[gh2008]

At the moment there is a very strong case for an "Unfair Relationship"

 

You contacted teh OC with proposals to repay at an affordable rate due to financial situation.

 

They set the DCAs on you DEMANDING FULL BALANCE

 

THEN they send multiple DNs (which again I feel are unfair in their wording)

 

They send a Letter before action on the same day as issuing a claim.

 

...... a bit of a picture building up here ....

 

Let's see what the agreement throws up

 

Check out S140 of the CCA and the OFT's stance on unfair practices and the CPUTR

 

There is a very substantial argument here that you have been treated *very* unfairly

 

I would also make a formal complaint to the Lloyds TSB Group at the highest level as a prelude to making further formal complaints.

 

Have you sent a SAR to Lloyds? If not send it to their Head Office asking for all info that *the Group* hold on you (not just the loan Company part of the Group) - It will cost £10 but they rarely fail to deliver more ammo for you.

 

IMHO, at the moment, you are looking to reduce the balance as much as possible as I doubt it will be considered as irredeemably unenforceable (but you never know - the DN isn't strictly correct)

Let's see if they are allowed to add the interest & charges.

If not, then they've got to get rid of them

 

and in any case, this unfair relationship - if it can be proved - can prove *very* powerful in itself

 

Hope that helps

gh

[CAGisforME]

Thanks CB and GH

 

I will get an SAR off to Lloyds Group today. Let's see what they have indeed!

 

I will look up what you have suggest gh and go from there. The CPR went this morning Recorded Delivery.

 

Thanks again

[CAGisforME]

Have found S140 of the CCA - interesting reading! Have Bookmarked it so I can absorb it a little more.

 

The OFTs stance on Unfair Practises is equally interesting. Thanks so much for the heads up on this one gh!

 

I'm just compiling the SAR and will get that in the post tomorrow. Also looking up Complaints Procedure for Lloyds Group, which I will deal with in a seperate letter.

 

Just checked the paperwork I have - Yes, the LBA is definately the same date as the Court Claim. And yes, the DCA (Nationwide Collection Services did request the whole balance in their threatograms of 8th September, and 23rd September.

 

Interestingly too, but not sure if it's important, we haven't received anything from BH to state that they have cancelled or terminated the agreement. The figure requested by the DCA is £226 less than BH demanded in their LBA, but I cannot see how, as the monthly payment was £274 - definately need to see a statement, along with the Agreement.

 

I'll keep reading and update you all accordingly.