What constitutes a correctly marked out disabled parking space (council not private)?

[v8monkeyboy]

Hi,

I parked in a road side, marked out parking bay up a side street and (over) paid for a ticket which was displayed in the windscreen. Upon returning to my vehicle I had a parking ticket (PCN), which to my suprise was for being parked in a disabled spot.

 

I at that point noticed a small sign, high up on a post which is not in line with my space, rather more in line with the white line between my space and the one next to me (which isn't disabled). The white lines separating the spaces are old white paint which is broken and needs re-painting, and after scraping away the leaves it became apparent that there is also a very old word "disabled" painted in the entry to my space, which is again all broken old paint which needs re-painting. There was no big disabled logo in the space, and what paint there was on the road marking the spaces out is all old & broken and was covered with dead leaves.

 

Where can I find the regulations covering how a disabled space should be marked out? I've looked in the highway code, but its not clear.

 

I feel the ticket was unfairly issued, as I am a reasonably attentive person and I was genuinely suprised to find out that it was a disabled bay - surely it should be made clearer...

 

Hope you can help.

[lamma]

Council ticket on-street ? then the TSRGD

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2002/3113/contents/made

[v8monkeyboy]

Thanks for that - I've checked through the TSRGD and there's a few things that I'm not clear about.

 

1 - I've seen many disabled parking bays with a large disabled 'logo' painted on in the space, but can't find any reference to this marking mentioned in the TSRGD - not that it matters, as if it's not mentioned then obviously they aren't required, and my space didn't have one, but I assumed that disabled spaces do have them - just curious?

 

2 - The only regulation I can see relating to the painted lines is shown in figure 1033 of the TSRGD - This shows the parking spaces to have broken lines, but mine had solid lines (like in a supermarket car park) - I can't see any reference to parking spaces having solid white lines marking them out at the side of a carrige way (90 degrees on to the flow of traffic) - Does this make my space incorrectly marked out?

 

3 - I've found the signage details (661A) and check out the varients and illumination requirements, but I've not seen anywhere the height above ground requirements, or the details of where in relation to the space they should be displayed.

 

Can anyone out there shed any light on this for me?

 

Thanks in advance

[lamma]

got a picture of the bay ?

[v8monkeyboy]

Try this - not sure if this will work, if not appologies & I'll try again in a bit - this taken from google maps:

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=thompson+road+sheffield&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=11.145796,39.331055&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Thompson+Rd,+Sheffield,+South+Yorkshire+S11,+United+Kingdom&ll=53.36988,-1.493615&spn=0,0.002401&z=19&layer=c&cbll=53.370039,-1.493779&panoid=urJnQ7XIYkG7tOcmUOLHPA&cbp=12,3.18,,0,5

 

It's not quite like that now, as the wording and lines are older & much more deteriorated and the bush has grown up around the sign. Note the lines are solid, not dashed as shown in the TSRGD and on the day the whole road and pavement were covered with fallen leaves, so you couldn't see the lines & wording anyway. My wife has pictures taken on the day which I'll try & put on later when she gets in.

 

What do you think?

[crem]

I am not sure, but I suspect this may be a "disgressionary" disabled bay, like the ones a local resident applies to the council to have painted outside their house. They are not legally enforcable, but rely on the fact that 99% of us wouldn't park in, or obstructing one.

[Zamzara]

The lines are not compliant so you have grounds to appeal on that point, in addition to the poor visibility of the signs and text.

[esmerobbo]

I am not sure, but I suspect this may be a "disgressionary" disabled bay, like the ones a local resident applies to the council to have painted outside their house. They are not legally enforcable, but rely on the fact that 99% of us wouldn't park in, or obstructing one.

 

I suspect Crem is correct. Take a look at this.

 

http://www.sheffield.gov.uk/roads-and-transport/policies-plans-performances/non-regulatory-markings

 

and

 

http://maps.google.co.uk/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=103874823757574281442.00048808e7517aabcb0c0&z=14

[v8monkeyboy]

Now that is interesting - I'd love to know how you found that...

 

I've zoomed in to street level view on quite a few of those disabled spaces that are marked on your map, and they all follow the dashed line format shown in the TSRGD, unlike mine - so I suspect you are right. Not sure how I'd get proof whether or not it is a disgressionary one though.

 

Also, the guidance notes on that web site do seem to contradict themselves though: One paragraph reads "Non-regulatory markings, by their very nature, are only advisory and are not legally enforceable like, say, yellow line waiting restrictions"

and then a bit futher down another says

"However, they are not for the sole use of the individual for which the bay was painted. When any vehicle is parked in a disabled bay it must display the blue badge permit"

Which begs the question...or you'll do what?

[starfarer]

I am not sure, but I suspect this may be a "disgressionary" disabled bay, like the ones a local resident applies to the council to have painted outside their house. They are not legally enforcable, but rely on the fact that 99% of us wouldn't park in, or obstructing one.

 

Looking at the residential time plates on street view link provided, which too are off the kerb, likely that these are enforced by councils. Normally "warning" or advisory dbays, time plates are on wall or part of property.

 

 

I've zoomed in to street level view on quite a few of those disabled spaces that are marked on your map, and they all follow the dashed line format shown in the TSRGD

 

Can anyone confirm that the dashed lines format is a necessary (for disabled bay)? this will make the bay un-enforceable and looks like the only way out of paying this PCN for OP. Also can anyone check on the required minimum size for Dbays? Always seen them bigger than normal bays but on OP's location, all are of same size.

Edited October 27, 2010 by starfarer

[esmerobbo]

Found this on another council websites FAQs

 

How will I know if a bay is enforceable?

When a disabled bay is enforceable it will have a sign next to it with the words 'disabled badge holders only'. Enforceable disabled bays will have a legal traffic order and are enforced by civil enforcement officers employed by the local borough or district council. Anyone parked in an enforceable disabled bay not displaying a valid blue badge may receive a penalty charge notice.

[kwaks]

Found this on another council websites FAQs

 

How will I know if a bay is enforceable?

When a disabled bay is enforceable it will have a sign next to it with the words 'disabled badge holders only'. Enforceable disabled bays will have a legal traffic order and are enforced by civil enforcement officers employed by the local borough or district council. Anyone parked in an enforceable disabled bay not displaying a valid blue badge may receive a penalty charge notice.

 

Which all still requires the bays to be correctly marked/signed and the TSRGD to be correct.

[v8monkeyboy]

Sorry this took a while - I was away for a few days. I've finally been to get some better pictures of the space as it stands, see below - particularly the wording "DISABLED" which should be clearly marked on the road, and as you can see it's only the A and the last D which can be made out at all, and even that was after I'd scraped the leaves out of the way - prior to which no wording was visable at all.

 

In addition, according to the TSRGD a disabled space is meant to be 3600mm wide (compared to a standard space being just 2000mm to 2500mm), and the lines are meant to be dashed (broken) not solid. The space I parked in was only 2350mm wide (actually narrower than the non-disabled space next to it which was 2450mm) and had solid lines. The sign doesn't make it clear which space is disabled as it's positioned in line with one of the dividing lines between spaces, and the wording as mentioned doesn't meet the regulations laid down in the TSRGD.

 

These are the points I've raised in my letter of appeal, so we'll wait and see what they come back with. Interestingly, the car in the space when I took the pictures wasn't a Disabled blue badge holder and the owner was suprised to find out it was a disabled space when she saw me photographing it, and on the floor in front of her car was another discarded ticket from a different vehicle which had also been issued for parking in a disabled spot. People obviously aren't getting the message that this is meant to be a disabled space, and the council seem to be raking in the proceeds.

 

Anyway, rant over, thanks for all the help & advice, pics to follow...

 

[my-spirit-soars-free]

Aren't those measurements for a disabled space just advisory?

 

That is certainly what I have been told when I have tried complaining about "disabled" spaces that are too narrow for me to use.

[v8monkeyboy]

The text in the TSRGD doesn't specify size, just referrs to diagrams, and the diagram concerned is as follows. See for yourself, and make your own mind up - I can't see any other reason why that space is shown as being 3600mm where as the one next to it is 2000 to 2500...

 

[my-spirit-soars-free]

Sorry, I can't read it, it is tiny on my laptop

[v8monkeyboy]

sorry, try this version... and if it still doesn't work try Google images "TSRGD 1033" and you should find diagram 1033 showing a grey background with white dimensionsed markings.

[v8monkeyboy]

not sure what I'm doing wrong... these images are massive on my hard drive, but when I upload them they are coming out small, yet the photo's seemed to work ok? You might have to use Google until I've learned computers...

[ldkquestion]

Upload them to a free image host instead of using the forum attachment feature.

 

ImageShack etc.

or even Google Picasa if you have a gmail account

 

http://www.google.co.uk/search?source=ig&hl=en&rlz=&q=free+image+shot&aq=f&oq=#sclient=psy&hl=en&safe=off&q=free+image+host&aq=f&aqi=g4g-o1&aql=&oq=&gs_rfai=&pbx=1&fp=9dae9b5f37450db6