British Gas & Power Flush

[ssfoe]

BG cant say we advise that you must anything. If the OP MUST have a powerflush, then that isnt advice, thats an insistence.

if the blackness/magnatite in your system is in its early stages then a magnaclean would be suitable, if its more advanced and you have a sludge build up then you will need a flush of some kind, not necessarily a powerflush and if the sludge has been there for donkeys years with no treatment then you may well end up having to repipe the system. these are all variants which no one can diagnose as there is not the required amount of information in the OP.

 

with regard to the solenoid, i'm only guessing because i havent seen your boiler. as i said, its virtually impossible to try to diagnose whats wrong on a forum such as this.

 

I take some comfort from the fact that I might just have to have the Magnaclean now. There is 400 pounds worth of differnce between the two. I might go ahead and get that done now.

[martin2006]

You will probably save even more than that if you have it fitted by an independant gas safe registered installer rather than scottish gas.

And as its a physical item, they can see when its been done, unlike a powerflush.

[ssfoe]

Thanx Martin, I might just call my local heating guy then. And then I will just cancel my Homecare contract.

[peregrin2]

Hi. Am on a BG contract. Last March had the valve replaced, last year the pump. In July, Baxi Solo boiler and/or the pump/airing cupboard pipework started making very alarming loud bangs and lots of rushing, trickling, just weird noises. BG engineer visited but the noises didn't perform - said check if it vents into loft when it next happens, can't do anything without hearing them. Nothing happened again till last Thurs night when it started up again. Checked header tank - no hot water in that. Noises became pretty continuous though luckily not the very loud bangs which had vibrated upstairs floorboards, apart from first start up in morn. Arranged BG visit, came today. Very rushed/almost rude engineer who spent the visit complaining about everything from the loft ladder to why we hadn't followed a quote last year for new rads - because the guy who suggested it thought the worst corroded ones would be replaced under contract for free, and a quote turned up for thousands. Said didn't have to hear the noises (when tried to play back a taped copy), knew it was a blockage in the return/vent pipe. Waved round a magnet to prove the copper pipe in the T junction where this pipe joined the downward running pipe to the pump and valve was 'magnetic', with iron based sludge inside. Said bleeding rads would show dirty water - actually water is clean, only air was in one upstairs rad, so changed the story to the sludge is down the bottom. Basically said they used to cut out the bad pipework but now, nothing doing - must pay for a £800 powerflush. Question - had one done in 1999 when boiler was fitted, before the 'lifetime' guarantee, so they will no doubt dispute should have a free one. Also, after visit the banging came back continuously - sounded ready to splitopen the boiler so have had to switch it all off. Left without a working system now till we pay up - if powerflush done by an independent, said they would not cover on their contract - so a form of blackmail, yes? If anything happened subsequently, sounds like they'd weasel out of paying anything. And this is after paying for cover since 1988. Absolutely livid. Am going to phone to complain tomorrow but any advice please - probably get an independent in and cancel BG? Also concerned that powerflush might perforate the corroded rads.

[martin2006]

Depending on your type of system, it sounds like its blocked at the point where the cold feed and vent pipe connect into the system. I doubt very much that a powerflush would get rid of it. It really needs to have the blocked pipe/s removed and replaced, like BG used to do in the good old days.

The banging in the pipes is because the pump can't move the heated water around the system due to this blockage. So what happens is the water sits in the boiler and boils, like a kettle but without a spout to relieve the pressure built up by the expansion of the water.

The worst one i ever did involved replacing over 12 foot of copper.

[peregrin2]

Thanks Martin2006. Don't know where the pipe actually joins on, just saw it coming up from floor of airing cupboard, presumably goes under landing floor and down to boiler in kitchen. Two water pipes go into top of boiler, only a gas pipe comes up from the floor into bottom of boiler. Was concerned that a flush would need so much pressure to clear the (narrow) pipe it would blow out the rads. Guess getting an independent to look it over is the way forward. Maybe also corrosion on the rads which is quite bad could be letting air in though there are no obvious leaks touch wood. BG don't cover the rads unless they actually start leaking of course. Boiler is the old type, not a combi.

[martin2006]

With only Two pipes coming from the top of your boiler, my guess is yours is a fully pumped system (y-plan or s-plan).

The Flow pipe from the boiler will indeed enter the airing cupboard and normally be tee'd off to the pump before continuing into the loft as the open vent pipe.

If yours has been "close coupled" you should also see a smaller (15mm) come from the header tank down into the airing cupboard and connecting in between the tee and the pump.

If you dont have this extra pipe then you have a combined cold feed and vent, probably at the header tank.

It is almost always at the point of the tee off to the pump where you will find the blockage, you then have to cut the blocked pipe back until it is clear.

Once that has been done, flushing may be of benefit and the introduction of a system inhibitor such as fernox or sentinel.

 

There will not be any air entering through your rads, if they were holed, they would leak due to the pressure of the water in them.

[peregrin2]

Thanks Martin2006. It is fully pumped and does have the T joint between downpipe to pump and valve, and the pipe coming up from boiler and bending to run along the side of the airing cupboard and up to loft. The T junction itself is where the BG 'engineer' was putting the magnet to demo iron sludge. There is no 15 mm pipe.

Phoned BG today to complain about the general 'off' attitude and the implication that getting a powerflush done by anyone else would then cause problems with the contract. Nice lady at the call centre was apologetic, said it was fine to get it done by independent, wouldn't invalidate. Agreed to send a different engineer for a 2nd opinion. Confirmed that the 'lifetime' guarantee on power flushing didn't start till 2004 so ours was too early to benefit. I stressed that system was now unusable since it was banging and crashing itself apart as soon as the 'engineer' left. I also said I was concerned that the amount of pressure to shift a blocked pipe might blow out the very flaky rads, and that nothing had ever been said about power flush, it would be more reasonable if they agree to replace the blocked piping and then said we needed power flush to avoid problems with cover. (Which would be done cheaper by independent) Incidentally, the system has had X100 in it since the boiler was put in, in 1999 and was replaced Jan 2001 when they had to drain it for some reason, forgotten now why. These Baxi Solos are definitely not as reliable as the old back boilers like the Glowworm which we only replaced because they told us they could no longer get parts.

 

Could the playing with magnets by the 'engineer' have ensured that the pipe was fully blocked or might he have let more water into the system when in the loft and out of sight - as opinion seems to be that putting more dissolved oxygen into the system will exacerbate problems? Seems odd that the problem got dramatically worse 5 mins or less after his departure.

 

The 2nd engineer is coming tomorrow - will see if they agree the blocked pipework should be cut out. If not, will get an independent in to look at it properly and hopefully fix then cancel the BG contract. Was pretty annoyed by all this as have been with them for 23 years, and they didn't use to be this bad.

[martin2006]

The blockage could now have caused the pump to fail. Imagine trying to pump the water round with the resistance of a blockage not allowing the water to move.

 

Hopefully the engineer tomorrow will replace the blocked pipes and your heating will be sorted.

 

if you decide on an independant to flush the system, it should cost around £300 including chemicals and unless your rads are totally rotten it wont burst them. I know its called a powerflush but its not that powerful that it would burst a steel rad.

 

Let us know how you get on with BG tomorrow

[peregrin2]

Thanks again Martin2006. Engineer left a while ago. Different story with this one although he did a very hard sell to fit a Magnabooster ... but was suggesting putting it on the return/vent pipe in the airing cupboard not the pipe going into the boiler, as the boiler 'has stuff in it already' (so it doesn't matter if more crap gets into it??) and it would be tricky for us to clean (height and physical issues, and the thing would be up near the ceiling). Also the special offer is ending tomorrow and it's £50 more after (though that wasn't a fib as he handed over a printed voucher showing that - offer price is £219). Showed me the piece of pipe b/t the pump and valve which has only a coating of black on it, not narrowed, though admittedly it attracts a magnet less strongly than the T junction piece. That he would not touch. Said he didn't think the system needed a powerflush for 'several years' but would benefit from the filter, and if problems occurred again they might be funny about it if the filter wasn't fitted. Anyway got him to leave a quote for that at the special price, which allows the offer to be extended for 28 days in effect. Meanwhile, the actual problem he said was with the pump which was the type they used to fit - Michin? - they now fit Grundfos. Apparently the others were prone to just stopping (which happened to the one last year). Did see that the box mentioned the maker though the pump itself has the blue BG appearance like the last one, however definitely a different pump, switch is different. So system seems to be running OK now. Freely admitted that the previous engineer had 'jumped to conclusions'. The noises had been water overheating in the boiler, but that was because the pump had stopped. Thinks more problems will occur sooner rather than later if we don't go for the filter. Anyway, am now going to try to get someone independent that a friend has used to come and look at the whole thing, including possibility of new rads to replace the worse ones at least, and give another opinion on powerflush, which possibly should be done before fitting the filter - otherwise won't it immediately fill up with crap? It was the booster type with a thing that unscrews then goes onto a nut at the side and turns to let the stuff drop out. Also said if fitted by a 3rd party they wouldn't clean as part of annual service, and showed me the T&C but I then gave it back saying the T&C said they wouldn't REPAIR a 3rd pty one but they would clean as part of annual service even if they didn't fit it. So he was better than the last one but still some BS going on. On balance, if an independent can be got in who is decent, the BG contract is going to go. Anyway thanks again for all your advice.

Edited September 29, 2011 by peregrin2
added price for magnabooster

[martin2006]

Glad its working again. There are many good engineers out there who would look after your system for you. The best ones are usually the ones who are recommended by friends/family who have used them before.

[ssfoe]

A little update from me. One powerflush later, a new pump, air pressure switch, fan and a venturi, the boiler is still locking itself out but only when it is set to both heating and hot water. If it is set to hot water only, it doesn't cut out. Sooo fruststrating. Scottish Gas are trying their best to get to the bottom of the problem but as the fault is intermittant it seems difficult to trace. Any ideas?

[Flashay]

Hi everyone!

 

I am new to this forum like many people. This caught my eye as I have just had a BG engineer round my house today and he has mentioned a possible powerflush.

 

I am quite confused about my system at this moment in time. Its got a dual pump system that controls the flow of the hot water and flow for the radiators.

 

The problem I am facing is:

The radiators work fine and heat up pretty quickly. But I am struggling to understand why I am not getting boiling hot water. The boiler never used to fire up but the pump used to run constantly. That got sorted out. The BG guy that popped around and had said that there was a blockage caused by a 3rd party plumber that forgot to turn the 2 valves on around the pump (interesting but clumsy). That was that. He said it would take about an hour or 2 for the water to heat up.

 

Its now been 12hrs... The pump is still going, the thermastat on the tank is set to 75, and I turn the hot water on, its hot at first then cold then just warm, not boiling, just warm. Not warm enough to even bath in. What would be causing this issue?

 

He left a quote for £550 to get it sorted out, but i thought powerflushes only sorted heat, rads etc. Not water issues? He mentioned that he let some water out of a rad and saw little iron bits and pieces (which i assume builds up over the years), didnt look like much to me.

 

But seriously £550 to flush a system out. After he told me the boiler was in perfect working order after giving it a service and clean bill of health.

 

Any ideas what might be causing my lack of hot water or lack of heating up of the water. Dont know if its worth mentioning or not. But the emmersion heater that I have been using didnt even heat the water up either, same temp as it is now. and pump still going and slighlty noisy, just humming away.

 

Thanks

Sorry for the woffle

[slick132]

Hi Flashay and welcome to CAG

 

I hope one of our experienced users will stop by and offer you some advice soon.

 

Be patient though as the site tends to be more quiet over the w/end.

 

[MrHandyman]

Hi Flashay

 

Sorry to hear about your problems.

 

A friend of mine had a similar issue where they got only warm water, not hot. The way they found around it was to run the hot taps only at half power, to reduce the demand on the boiler. After a few mins this always gives them boiling hot water.

 

Sadly i'm not an engineer so can't diagnose further!

 

If you are unhappy at the engineer's resolution you can always request a visit from the service manager by calling the call centre and raising a field complaint for a 2nd opinion.

 

Mr H

[Flashay]

Hi Flashay

 

Sorry to hear about your problems.

 

A friend of mine had a similar issue where they got only warm water, not hot. The way they found around it was to run the hot taps only at half power, to reduce the demand on the boiler. After a few mins this always gives them boiling hot water.

 

Sadly i'm not an engineer so can't diagnose further!

 

If you are unhappy at the engineer's resolution you can always request a visit from the service manager by calling the call centre and raising a field complaint for a 2nd opinion.

 

Mr H

 

Hi Mr H,

 

Strange thing is, the BG engineer who came out had his manager come out with him at the same time as he had to meet up with him for some reason, but they were both in the house. His manager said the same thing, BUT - from what I picked up from the guys attitude was that he just thought $$ coming their way. The actual engineer was more trustworthy. I still reckon I dont need one. Then again I am not a qualified plumber/heating/gas engineer.

 

Regardless of what speed the water comes out of that tap its still just warm, not boiling. I have tried something else today, turned the speed of the pump down to 2 from the fastest. I will let it run over night and see what happens. Seems the boiler fired up and stayed on a bit longer. I still find it odd that the boiler fires up for about 2-5mins then stops. Waits a while then fires up again. At that rate the water wont get hot.

 

Going to have to wait and see. Will see what others say on here with suggestions before I book that flush (IF I BOOK IT)

 

Cheers

 

PS might get another opinion possibly as you say with another FE.

[MrHandyman]

Hmm...the Service Managers can sometimes be like that, as they want as many additional upgrade jobs (i.e. powerflushes) as possible.

 

Sometimes they do tag along on jobs where there have been multiple visits in a short period without the customer having to ask.

 

It does seem odd that you get hot water, and then it goes warm.

 

If you have a "cover" agreement, then you could certainly look down the route of a complaint to the ombudsman. These complaints are generally treated differently by BG, as they are seen as "high level". If BG have not provided you with a decent level of service then that is certainly grounds for complaint.

 

Mr H

[askwillows]

my radiators are hot my water is hot and i have hot water going back into the expansion tank bg came and turned the boiler down to its lowest setting which stopped the flow of water going back into the tank but bg say i need a powerflush having read the other comments i am now unsure what to do

[plubingforfun]

You can test a central heating water sample. There are companies that do that for free by post, and you will know if you really have a sludge problem or not. They will test for TDS and PH in the sample and give you a report.

[MCK]

Hi

can anyone advise me how, where, to whom I complain regarding my on-going problem with British Gas.

BG installed new boiler last year June 2011. Since then I had to call their engineers on several occasion as pressure on the system was dropping every few weeks. I was assured that system will settle in time and there will be no problem.

Now central heating is not working and engineer this time had recommended power flush system and will cost £850/

When new boiler was fitted is it not required by BG to power flush system before they install new boiler? My system was only chemical cleaned as that time I did not know different between chemical clean and power flush. Now they want me to give them £850/ to do thing they should have done in the beginning.

Thanks

MCK

[ihateyes]

Hi

can anyone advise me how, where, to whom I complain regarding my on-going problem with British Gas.

BG installed new boiler last year June 2011. Since then I had to call their engineers on several occasion as pressure on the system was dropping every few weeks. I was assured that system will settle in time and there will be no problem.

Now central heating is not working and engineer this time had recommended power flush system and will cost £850/

When new boiler was fitted is it not required by BG to power flush system before they install new boiler? My system was only chemical cleaned as that time I did not know different between chemical clean and power flush. Now they want me to give them £850/ to do thing they should have done in the beginning.

Thanks

MCK

 

I believe BG will push a P/flush on a gas boiler sale. but the customer may decide against it.

[slick132]

Hi MCK and welcome to CAG

 

Unless you were offered a PF and turned it down, this sounds to me like a con of the worst sort.

 

If a Power Flush was required, it should have been done as part of the (no doubt overpriced) boiler replacement, before the new one was fitted.

 

If the pressure is dropping and needs topping up regularly, there is a leak somewhere. If there is no visible sign of leakage, it may be under your flooring.

 

But I fail to see why they would recommend a PF (apart from commission) as this will not solve a leak in the system. That would be £850 of your money down the drain and the heating system will still have the pressure-drop problem.

 

Contact BG and ask that a Field Manager comes to inspect because you feel you've been :-

 

1. Fobbed off about the pressure dropping (caused by a leak).

 

2. Offered an overpriced PF which will do nowt to cure your problem.

 

When the new boiler was fitted, I think the system should have been pressure tested and any leak located and sorted.

 

[chezwtn]

The Powerflush nonsense from BG is a big [problem]. I worked for them for over 3 years in their retentions/cancellations dept and have first hand experience of dealing with these issues day in and day out. The number of people phoning to cancel because of this was ridiculous and we had no tools to retain these customers other than talking them round.

 

Some people do need it, those in areas where the water has a lot of scale, usually in and around London are affected badly when the water leaves deposits and starts to block the heat exchanger and the system, which I don't have a problem with and any breakdowns relating to the scale/sludge are therefore excluded, but it is fast becoming a total get out clause for paying for a lot of boiler repairs which I don't like. They also charge WELL over the odds for a PowerFlush - genuinely required or not. I know HomeCare inside out so if anyone has any questions I will do my best to assist.

 

Hi I had a heat exchanger replaced a couple of years ago (under a BG Homecare Agreement) and then it went again not too long after, so I was told that they would only replace it again if I had a magnabooster fitted, so I did at a cost of approx £300. It appears that they decided the system did not need a powerflush at that time. the boiler was serviced in Jan 2013 (funny but i always get problems after they have serviced it) and a month later I am told the heat exchanger is blocked up and they have cleaned it and that I now need a power flush at a cost of £719. I called customer services and the girl I spoke to went off and came back and said after speaking to someone in the office they were surprised I had a problem just after two years. However, there was not enough info on system would get another engineer to go out to property. Got a call this morning that they would reduce the cost by the price of the charge they made for magnabooster, but it needed doing. Any ideas on how I can tackle this with BG. Thanks very much in advance for any advice you can give

[slick132]

Hi Chezwtn and welcome to CAG

 

I'm not a qualified CHS engineer and I hope one may drop by to comment. However, I'll put in my 2p's worth anyway.............

 

You refer to a Magnabooster but probably mean a Magnaclean. This is a device that magnetically catches ferrous (iron) particles that will otherwise go round the system and settle, causing blockages and/or "cold spots" on radiators.

 

Speak to a local heating engineer, preferably one recommended or known by friends, work colleagues, etc. Explain the problems you are having and ask if they can check the system to see if a PF is needed. If they agree it is, get them to quote for doing the PF for you. I'll bet it's cheaper than BG, even after BG deduct the £300 you mentioned.

 

You should then know better how to proceed. But don't be bullied into an expensive PF at BG's high rates.

 

[chezwtn]

Hi Slick and thank you for your welcome and reply.

 

It is actually called a Magnabooster and since writing I have found the information about it and it states

 

"Fitting this gadget in your home helps protect your boiler, radiators and entire central heating system from damage caused by sludge. This means everything will work more efficiently so you can keep energy costs down. It also stops corrosion causing expensive damage to your boiler, and can extend the lifetime of your whole system". The information also states, "Magnabooster isn't a substitute for Powerflush. If one of our engineers thinks Magnabooster would benefit your cental heating system, they will investigate whether a powerflush is also required."

 

On this basis when they fitted the Magnabooster in Oct 2010 the engineer obviously decided that a powerflush was not required and according to their information about this gadget, I should not have got sludge etc. If I have then I am assuming it must be because the gadget did not work, also thinking about it further and from information on the info they provided , the gadget should be emptied at the service and if the engineer did this in January then he should have picked up the problem then (4 weeks prior to breakdown), so I wonder if he emptied the gadget.

 

I will be contacting BG on these lines (hoping the system holds out for the tenants whilst this is going on), but I would welcome any further thoughts or advice from anyone.

 

I will try and find a trusty local company, that that is not easy.

 

Thanks Chez