Rae's ESA...

[estellyn]

And this is why we should be allowed recorded assessments.

 

Yes I've recorded both of mine, I have a covert recorder that looks like something else.

[**Margaret**]

:Highly Competent Pinocchios:

 

Regular contributors to CAG will know that a friend and I have a partially upheld complaint against the Atossers.

 

Rewind to March 11;

 

We knew from the start that the assessment had gone pearshaped and we had our mitts on the IB85 less than 48 hours later. Do we?

 

1. Complain to Atos.

2. Knowing the nurse's name, from the IB85, complain to the Nursing and Midwifery Council.

3. Submit additional medical and supporting evidence to Jobcentreplus.

4. Start preparing for an appeal.

 

We decided to start with 1 and 3. Ten months, lots of letters, a formal statement from the nurse and a fortune spent on postage later, our complaint was partially upheld.

 

From evidence within the IB85 Atos admitted mistakes with basic anatomy and mis-interpretation of mental health descriptors. Their response should help win my friend's tribunal when it eventually gets listed.

 

The remainder of our complaint centered around the ethical issue of what was recorded on the IB85 as being said (most of it was not said) by my friend. Atos conceeded that the nurse 'may have mis-understood' my friend's answers to her questions, but in the absence of an independent witness 'it is not possible to know exactly what was said during this assessment'. Nice get out! Especially when Atos pinocchios are known to discourage chaperones. Also, why anyone having therapy (which Atos had documentary evidence of) for a 'phone phobia would say s/he has no problems answering a 'phone is anyone's guess.

 

Earlier this year, we were too exhausted to pursue the issue to the Independent Tier or the Nursing and Midwifery Council. Should my friend's appeal be upheld ......

 

In the meantime;

 

Regular contributors to CAG will know that I'm campaigning for audio recorded messicals, and in particular, for my own reassessment to be recorded. One way or another, there will be evidence of what I say to the Atosser.

 

Margaret.

Edited September 29, 2012 by **Margaret**

[debt4get]

I am perfectly relaxed about recorded assessments and I am perfectly happy to make recording facilities available. However, the advice that I received from Malcolm Harrington was that we should test recording. The result of the pilot was not only that there was not a need for recording, but that many people felt uncomfortable being assessed with a tape recorder running. Chris Grayling 04 sept 2012

full report to parliamentary committee here

http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201213/cmhansrd/cm120904/halltext/120904h0001.htm#12090423000002

[debt4get]

and just to lighten the evening...i know now where i went wrong with the atos assessment.....i was breathing!!1 nite nite

[MARTIN3030]

Following on from this,the Records campaign and reporting of the ATOS scandals,has seen political parties seething;

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/tories-accuse-atos-scandal-stories-1346317

[dpick]

Have been trying to find the thread regarding recording of atos assessments but was unable to but thought that it could also apply to this thread.

 

I attended an atos assessment with a friend for wca This was my friends second assessment her first approx 18 months ago 0 points and then tribunal 15 points limited capacity for work. She then received forms for another assessment. Forms were filled in requesting a recorded assessment.

 

She had assessment late September that was recorded. She was awarded 9 points and advised that her benefit would cease from the date of assessment.

 

Now my friend suffers from depression.

 

On reading the letter giving the result of her assessment it gives her 9 points for problems in public places that cause danger to her or others.

 

Now the rest of the recording.

1, no mention of her problems that ended in her striking someone in care home she had been working at that lead to her have to leave work.

 

2, no mention of her stating that she sometime does not get dressed for 2 to 4 days in the week.

 

3, It was mentioned that she had just about survived having her house refurbished for 4 weeks with help from family and friends taking her to their homes while workmen were in her house nothing on the assessment even though we stated that she does not like people in her home without someone from her group of friends and family with her.

 

4, cooking for herself on the assessment it was stated as an example that she had recently burnt a pan by putting it on then going upstairs and forgetting it, reported as no problems cooking.

 

I am glad I have the recording just listened to it again and noted the time each item above was mentioned.

 

dpick

[MARTIN3030]

Have been trying to find the thread regarding recording of atos assessments

 

Was it this one ?

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?208697-Recording-ESA-interview&highlight=recording+of+atos+assessments

[dpick]

Have been trying to find the thread regarding recording of atos assessments

 

Was it this one ?

 

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?208697-Recording-ESA-interview&highlight=recording+of+atos+assessments

 

Hi MARTIN not that one this was a very recent thread I think I posted on it in the last 5 weeks I will keep looking thanks.

 

dpick

[**Margaret**]

:dpick:

 

Announcement: ESA claimants now have the option of having their WCA recorded.

It was started by ErikaPNP.

 

Margaret.

Edited October 1, 2012 by **Margaret**

[MARTIN3030]

Jayne Linney (an Atos Campaigner) posted this on her blog in July.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Ms Linney,

 

 

I am writing further to Rhian Davies’ letter of the 29th June in response to your

 

concerns regarding your Work Capability Assessment (WCA) appointment.

 

I am sorry that on this occasion Atos is unable to meet your request for an

 

audio recording of your Work Capability Assessment on 20107/2012.

 

The Department for Work and Pensions has asked Atos Healthcare to try and

 

accommodate requests for audio recordings where this is made in advance of

 

the assessment. A limited facility to audio record was introduced by the

 

Department for Work and Pensions at a time when only small numbers of

 

requests.were anticipated and since that time the number of requests has

 

increased significantly. This has put pressure on our ability to provide

 

sufficient capacity to meet all requests. The DWP have therefore requested

 

that we inform customers when a recording cannot be made, and in these

 

circumstances, that the WCA process should continue. This will ensure your

 

claim is dealt with in a timely manner. The DWP decision maker will take into

 

account all available evidence in deciding your claim.

 

In view of security and confidentiality considerations Atos does not permit the

 

recording of WCAs by a customer using their own recording devices.

 

However, it is permissible for you, or your representative, to take notes during

 

an assessment for your own use.

 

The DWP are currently looking at ways to improve the availability of audio

 

recording in the short term and Atos Healthcare remains committed to assist

 

the DWP in the evaluation of the audio recording of Work Capability

 

Assessments later in the year.

 

 

 

Yours sincerely

 

 

Gemma Bowes

 

Customer Relations Manager

 

On behalf of Natalie Gorshkov-Vickers

 

 

 

 

 

http://jaynelinney.wordpress.com/

[count orlok]

That's something; it would be even better if you could get the HCP to sign your notes (which would/should be word for word), as being a true transcript of the WCA.

 

That would be almost as good as a recording.

[Astro1]

I don't recall this subject being raised here per se. On another forum, a member raised the point that where a doctor acting for ATOSH WCAs has clearly lied in his/her report to the DWP then that person should be reported to the GMC. Telling lies is, after all, contrary to the ethics a doctor should be working to. Quite serious misconduct. And, by extension, this goes for all the other HCPs who are members of a professional organisation.

Is this an area of complaint that we've unwittingly overlooked? I know that both of my WCAs, conducted by registered doctors, resulted in some incredible porky pies in the full ATOSH report. I never thought about making a complaint to the GMC for misconduct. They do, of course, have an obligation to tell the truth.

Is this something we should be giving more serious consideration to? ...

 

 

Maybe claimants should send a complaint to the Parliamentary and Health Service Ombudsman?

 

** Medical Services ATOS Healthcare is not a body in jurisdiction but its actions on behalf of the Department for Work and Pensions are.

 

http://www.ombudsman.org.uk/responsive-and-accountable/statistics/appendix

 

 

Putting things right: Complaints and learning from DWP.

 

http://www.ombudsman.org.uk/improving-public-service/reports-and-consultations/reports/parliamentary/putting-things-right/1

[RagDolly]

so we can make a request that may or not be granted...so its not a "right" just and most likely a rare occurrence if atos and the dwp have anything to do with it. In other words nothing much has changed.

[Zonker]

Sorry if this has been posted before but the figures quoted by various places of atos ratio of 1 doctor to 75 nurses is anywhere near accurrate ( i dont doubt that it is inaccurate) then it would appear that nurses are doing the most reports.

 

http://www.nmc-uk.org/Nurses-and-midwives/Standards-and-guidance1/The-code/The-code-in-full/

 

From their code:

 

 

 

 

Be impartial

• 57. You must not abuse your privileged position for your own ends
  
• 58. You must ensure that your professional judgment is not influenced by any commercial considerations
  

It also would appear that any 'wrong doing' by a nurse is not judged upon criminal burdens of proof, just civil burden.

 

Nurses and midwives hold a position of responsibility and other people rely on them. They are professionally accountable to the NMC, as well as having a contractual accountability to their employer and are accountable in the law for their actions.

 

Im forming the view that a nurse could fall foul of the nmc regulations, even if they are an approved by the dwp if the report by them isnt accurate. It appears there is no defence of 'i was just doing what i was told to do.'

 

Do you have to be registered with nmc to work a nurse? Yes.

 

Do you need to be registered to work as an hcp for the dwp. Yes

 

http://www.dwp.gov.uk/docs/wca-handbook.pdf

 

All Health Care Professionals undertaking medical assessments must be registered medical practitioners, nursing practitioners or physiotherapists

 

Sorry if this appears to be an incoherent post, im not that coherent

Edited October 21, 2012 by Zonker
adding other information

[debt4get]

yes nurses can also be hauled before their 'council' and can be banned...we all need to complain and complain loudly when they put what amounts to downright lies on the reports

[RaeUK]

Thanks for the posts on this. Clearly there's things that can be done with regard to formal complaints ...

[**Margaret**]

:Highly Competent Pinocchios:

 

There's several routes for formal complaints against the pinocchios if one's got the energy, resources (printing ink costs more than the printer, stamps, a courier to the Post Office) moral support and sheer stickability to keep going. By definition, anyone who's tangled with Atos is fighting from behind.

 

Our first complaint to the pinocchios ended with a draw when someone close to me became seriously ill.

 

We had a bit more adrenalin, and an overflow of righteous indignation, for our second round of complaining to the Astressors cos there was (and still is) an outstanding tribunal. Ten months of energy sapping stress later we'd got most of our complaint upheld and more than enought evidence to get pinocchio (who'd been sent for retraining) disciplined. Unfortunately we were too shattered to pursue her any further. My friend was still arguing for Jobcentreplus to revise their decision when my notice of reassessment for employment and support allowance arrived!

 

If delay doesn't defeat equity we've at least three avenues for further complaint. Whether we'll ever get the chance to pursue one of them is another matter.

 

Margaret.

Edited October 24, 2012 by **Margaret**

[Zonker]

Whilst amusing myself at doctors FTP hearings , I came across this one:

 

http://www.mpts-uk.org/static/documents/content/Minutes_PUBLISHABLE_7010542_Jun_2012_Schnitzer.pdf

 

In 2009 you came to the UK and you were employed by ATOS, an organisation that conducts disability assessments for the Department for Work and Pensions.

 

 

Your professional performance was unacceptable in the following areas,

a) Good Clinical Care: Assessment of patients’ condition,

Admitted and found proved

b) Good Clinical Care: Providing or arranging investigations,

Admitted and found proved

c) Good Clinical Care: Providing or arranging treatment,

Admitted and found proved

d) Good Clinical Care: Record Keeping,

Admitted and found proved

e) Good Clinical Care: Other Good Clinical Care,

Admitted and found proved

f) Maintaining Good Medical Practice,

Admitted and found proved

g) Relationships with patients;

Admitted and found proved

7. Your professional performance was a cause for concern in the section Working with Colleagues;

Admitted and found proved

8. In the Applied Knowledge Test, you scored 26% which is below the standard set score for the test which is 64%;

Admitted and found proved

From this particular quote it would seem that being an acceptable standard isnt checked by certain employers prior to employment.

 

I think i dont need to say more.

[dpick]

Have been trying to find the thread regarding recording of atos assessments but was unable to but thought that it could also apply to this thread.

 

I attended an atos assessment with a friend for wca This was my friends second assessment her first approx 18 months ago 0 points and then tribunal 15 points limited capacity for work. She then received forms for another assessment. Forms were filled in requesting a recorded assessment.

 

She had assessment late September that was recorded. She was awarded 9 points and advised that her benefit would cease from the date of assessment.

 

Now my friend suffers from depression.

 

On reading the letter giving the result of her assessment it gives her 9 points for problems in public places that cause danger to her or others.

 

Now the rest of the recording.

1, no mention of her problems that ended in her striking someone in care home she had been working at that lead to her have to leave work.

 

2, no mention of her stating that she sometime does not get dressed for 2 to 4 days in the week.

 

3, It was mentioned that she had just about survived having her house refurbished for 4 weeks with help from family and friends taking her to their homes while workmen were in her house nothing on the assessment even though we stated that she does not like people in her home without someone from her group of friends and family with her.

 

4, cooking for herself on the assessment it was stated as an example that she had recently burnt a pan by putting it on then going upstairs and forgetting it, reported as no problems cooking.

 

I am glad I have the recording just listened to it again and noted the time each item above was mentioned.

 

dpick

 

 

This may be of interest we entered an appeal and expected to have to go to tribunal this morning my friend got a call from dwp to say reconsidered decision and she now has 15 points. We made the appeal using the CD recording as above quoting the times of errors and the stop from giving info when the assessor wanted to check what she typed.Please insist on a recorded assessment it is invaluable for an appeal.

 

dpick

[Dilizjo]

Well done dpick:clap2:

[Lucky7even]

I just recently had a benefit WCA medical, and the lady I had who was a registered nurse, was very nice.

 

When I got a copy of the esa85, she didn't put down anything wrong, and in fact she recommended me for the esa support group; I got awarded the full 15 points first time and that I was to be reviewed in the medium term, which I understand is around 2 years.

 

My experience with ATOS was fine and I had no trouble from the at all.

[Guest]

Back in 2009 I complained to the GMC about the HCP who did my atos medical, she had lied etc etc. Her name was on the copy of the report I had got. GMC got back to me saying that they had written to both atos and the outcome basically was that the HCP denied any lies, and atos said they had no issues of concern about her. End of. GMC did nothing, as there was no proof. They did however say that if a number of complaints were made about the same person that they would then look again at them. However I don't think these reports are left on their record for very long?

[kAPPS]

this has been mooted on other anti atos websites (well the ones they havent managed to close down) and if you have evidence that lies were definitely told then reporting the HCP is a good idea...however, whilst not defending these people in any way...we all saw the panaroma programme on the sanctions that may occur if the HCP 'passes' too many 'clients' in effect they are in between 'a rock and a hardplace' it is the system that needs to change, it is ludicrous where ATOS blames the DWP the DWP blame ATOS, they including us blame the condems...but nobody is listening

 

But didn't Mark Hoban say at the House of commons debate about the WCA, there were no actual Targets for numbers when being assessed? of course we only have his word about that and many other MPs were speculating that he was not telling the truth?

 

Mr Hoban would have many people believing that the Atos system is working fine, but recent numbers have shown that complaints about the Atos HCPs tells another story.

[dpick]

Back in 2009 I complained to the GMC about the HCP who did my atos medical, she had lied etc etc. Her name was on the copy of the report I had got. GMC got back to me saying that they had written to both atos and the outcome basically was that the HCP denied any lies, and atos said they had no issues of concern about her. End of. GMC did nothing, as there was no proof. They did however say that if a number of complaints were made about the same person that they would then look again at them. However I don't think these reports are left on their record for very long?

 

Now that you can have ATOS assessments recorded you then have a CD of the assessment that proves the lies/differences in the report of the assessment and the actual assessment when made lets see what GMC say now because I have reported to DWP one assessment that the report made by ATOS was not accurate to the recording and DWP changed the claimant from work to support group within 4 weeks

 

dpick

[Guest]

Well done dpick, and if they drag me to one I will be recording it too