Urgent Advice Please - Re: Nationwide Credit Card & Court Action

[terrytibbs100]

What did he Judge base his decision on ?

 

Carey allowing a recon agreement - didn't accept any of my arguments on the original "agreement" as he said the recon was valid. WS from NW outlined the card application processing procedure and he ruled that on the balance of probabilities NW followed their own procedures, which complied with the 1974 act. In the friendliest and most reasonable way, he didn't want to know what else I had to say really!

Edited August 22, 2011 by terrytibbs100
typo

[caro]

Didn't the judge say how you should pay? Forthwith or by installments?

[Abby25]

Carey can't be used if the agreement has been varied, there is case law on this - did you appear as a LIP ? In any event appeal the decision (if you have the mojo !).

[terrytibbs100]

OK, do you have a link to the case please? What's the appeals procedure/costs? Think it's a forthwith as he said I could apply to make a repayment offer I could afford.

[caro]

I would think carefully about appealing because if you lose again you could have heavy costs. This is the Carey case.

 

http://www.bailii.org/ew/cases/EWHC/QB/2009/3417.html

[terrytibbs100]

Thanks Caro. I don't regret having a go (and the landscape has changed a lot recently in favour of creditors) but I might be pushing my luck trying for an appeal that I'm likely to lose and then pay a fortune for. Still open to the idea though!

 

I did try to test 234 (4) but the judge took the fact they needed to produce the agreement if terms had been varied to allow the recon too. Not sure what the case law is that would contradict that one?

 

Ultimately, the judge believed the WS from NW - ie. "this is our procedure and we must have followed it". To me, people can make mistakes, there are human errors every single day and it's more than possible not everything was followed properly, but the judge didn't really want to know.

 

So I think now, while I'll look into an appeal, I'm most concerned with preventing a CO. My understanding is that they can only apply for one if I don't pay the CCJ - so I'm thinking I need to set up a repayment plan with the court asap and then stick to it.

 

Gutted to lose but I went into it with my eyes open and take the consequences now.

 

Thanks again everyone.

 

TT

[miss muppet]

Thanks Caro. I don't regret having a go (and the landscape has changed a lot recently in favour of creditors) but I might be pushing my luck trying for an appeal that I'm likely to lose and then pay a fortune for. Still open to the idea though!

 

I did try to test 234 (4) but the judge took the fact they needed to produce the agreement if terms had been varied to allow the recon too. Not sure what the case law is that would contradict that one?

 

Ultimately, the judge believed the WS from NW - ie. "this is our procedure and we must have followed it". To me, people can make mistakes, there are human errors every single day and it's more than possible not everything was followed properly, but the judge didn't really want to know.

 

So I think now, while I'll look into an appeal, I'm most concerned with preventing a CO. My understanding is that they can only apply for one if I don't pay the CCJ - so I'm thinking I need to set up a repayment plan with the court asap and then stick to it.

 

Gutted to lose but I went into it with my eyes open and take the consequences now.

 

Thanks again everyone.

 

TT

 

 

Absolutely gutted for you Terry, think you must go with whatever you feel most comfortable with, as you say as long as you keep paying what you can afford, they can't go forward so maybe this would be best, as you know it is a terrible strain getting ready for court and then it depends if you get a Judge who is open to the arguments. A big virtual hug for you and don't be a stranger on the site.

[caro]

Thanks Caro. I don't regret having a go (and the landscape has changed a lot recently in favour of creditors) but I might be pushing my luck trying for an appeal that I'm likely to lose and then pay a fortune for. Still open to the idea though!

 

I did try to test 234 (4) but the judge took the fact they needed to produce the agreement if terms had been varied to allow the recon too. Not sure what the case law is that would contradict that one?

 

Ultimately, the judge believed the WS from NW - ie. "this is our procedure and we must have followed it". To me, people can make mistakes, there are human errors every single day and it's more than possible not everything was followed properly, but the judge didn't really want to know.

 

So I think now, while I'll look into an appeal, I'm most concerned with preventing a CO. My understanding is that they can only apply for one if I don't pay the CCJ - so I'm thinking I need to set up a repayment plan with the court asap and then stick to it.

 

Gutted to lose but I went into it with my eyes open and take the consequences now.

 

Thanks again everyone.

 

TT

 

I don't know about the appeal side of things but I'm sure there's plenty on the site or others who can advise on this. Might be worth looking at an instalment order to prevent a CO. There's info on this here. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?203298

[pecky1]

Sorry to hear you must be gutted dont hold out much for our case then. Was this at your local court or Swindon Court?

 

Pecky1

[terrytibbs100]

Absolutely gutted for you Terry, think you must go with whatever you feel most comfortable with, as you say as long as you keep paying what you can afford, they can't go forward so maybe this would be best, as you know it is a terrible strain getting ready for court and then it depends if you get a Judge who is open to the arguments. A big virtual hug for you and don't be a stranger on the site.

 

Thanks for that MM - I'm not ruling out an appeal but for now I think the priority is to try to stop a CO.

 

At the end of the day in court, there's a winner and a loser so I'm philosophical but disappointed. Sometimes you're the pigeon and sometimes you're the statue!

 

The one small piece of good news is that NW didn't persue heavy costs.

 

TT

[terrytibbs100]

I don't know about the appeal side of things but I'm sure there's plenty on the site or others who can advise on this. Might be worth looking at an instalment order to prevent a CO. There's info on this here. http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?203298

 

Thanks for the link, Caro. Your honesty/realism in this thread has been valued and helped prepare me for a possible defeat. Perhaps a couple of years ago I might have won, but that's life I suppose!!

[terrytibbs100]

Sorry to hear you must be gutted dont hold out much for our case then. Was this at your local court or Swindon Court?

 

Pecky1

 

Hi Pecky1,

 

Not my most local court, but was in my county and only about 15 miles away. Was originally Swindon, then transferred to local court, then just before it was listed it was transferred again to a nearby court in same county.

 

You never know what might happen for you on the day, so don't give up hope! Prepare yourself well and try to have as strong an argument as possible and you might just win out on the day.

 

I'll stick around in case I can offer any help/assistance.

 

TT

[citizenB]

OK, do you have a link to the case please? What's the appeals procedure/costs? Think it's a forthwith as he said I could apply to make a repayment offer I could afford.

 

Terry, a forthwith judgment is one that needs repayment within 28 days, I think. As soon as you get a copy of the Judgment, let us know.. because you might need to apply for a redertimation in order arrange installment payments.

 

HTH

[terrytibbs100]

Thanks for that - as soon as I get the copy through, I'll re-post.

 

TT

 

Terry, a forthwith judgment is one that needs repayment within 28 days, I think. As soon as you get a copy of the Judgment, let us know.. because you might need to apply for a redertimation in order arrange installment payments.

 

HTH

[Andyorch]

Chase it up Terry as you only have 14 days after judgment to make a redetermination without charge.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[caro]

Thanks for the link, Caro. Your honesty/realism in this thread has been valued and helped prepare me for a possible defeat. Perhaps a couple of years ago I might have won, but that's life I suppose!!

 

I wish I could be more positive Terry, and you may well be right that things would have been different then. Good news about the costs.

[terrytibbs100]

Chase it up Terry as you only have 14 days after judgment to make a redetermination without charge.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy,

 

Had nothing through the post yet so not sure how I can apply - would it by case number or could I get a judgement number from the court? Not entirely sure how it works.

 

Thanks, TT

[miss muppet]

Andy will no doubt correct me if I am wrong Terry but think you should telephone the court giving your case number and tell them that you haven't got a copy of the judgement and that you need it as you only have 14 days after judgement to make a redetermination.

[terrytibbs100]

Andy will no doubt correct me if I am wrong Terry but think you should telephone the court giving your case number and tell them that you haven't got a copy of the judgement and that you need it as you only have 14 days after judgement to make a redetermination.

 

OK, finally got through to them (some other courts in the area have closed and they now have the workload and don't seem to like answering the phone anymore!) - coincidentally later the same day (yesterday) I got the order through the post, dated 31 Aug.

 

Firstly, does the 14 days start on the court date or on 31 Aug?

 

Secondly, the court staff told me I'd have to pay £40 irrespective of when I applied for redetermination.

 

All the order says is that:

 

Upon hearing counsel for the claimant and defendent in person, it is ordered that:

1. Judgment for the claimant and the defendent in sum of £x

2. The defendent to pay the claimant's costs of the claim assessed at £y

Dated 22 August 2011

 

So is this the actual judgment? Doesn't say anything about 28 days to pay or how much etc...

 

Well confused now - will fill out an N245 before 14 days is up and see what happens I suppose.

 

Any other advice?

 

Thanks again for everyone's help.

 

TT

[Andyorch]

We seem to be getting a few of these responses at the moment trying to charge for a redetermination.(filling the Christmas Party pot me thinks)

The staff are wrong, you have to pay for a variation on the N245 yes but this is a redetermination and it quite clearly laid out in the process that within 14 days of the judgment date an application is made there is no fee.

 

Yours Terry looks like a forthwith as no installments have been mentioned so its correct to use the N245 on this occasion and the fee is £40, unfortunately.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[terrytibbs100]

We seem to be getting a few of these responses at the moment trying to charge for a redetermination.(filling the Christmas Party pot me thinks)

The staff are wrong, you have to pay for a variation on the N245 yes but this is a redetermination and it quite clearly laid out in the process that within 14 days of the judgment date an application is made there is no fee.

 

Yours Terry looks like a forthwith as no installments have been mentioned so its correct to use the N245 on this occasion and the fee is £40, unfortunately.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy,

 

Sorry to ask again but I'm a bit confused...

 

You talk about an N245 being used for a redetermination and if it's within 14 days there's no fee. Then at the bottom you say there is a fee of £40.

 

If I put it in by Monday (which I will) then that's within 14 days and so is there a fee in these circumstances?

 

Thanks again, just want to get it right.

[Andyorch]

AS we wasn't sure of the judgment and waited conformation I wasn't sure which course you could take.

Yours is a forthwith for all intense and purposes so a redetermination is not applicable in this instance and a variation is the correct course.

So the 14 days is also not applicable.

 

You will file a N245 with the charge for a variation on the judgment to convert it to installments.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[terrytibbs100]

AS we wasn't sure of the judgment and waited conformation I wasn't sure which course you could take.

Yours is a forthwith for all intense and purposes so a redetermination is not applicable in this instance and a variation is the correct course.

So the 14 days is also not applicable.

 

You will file a N245 with the charge for a variation on the judgment to convert it to installments.

 

Regards

 

Andy

 

Thanks Andy, much appreciated (even if it wasn't the news I wanted!)

 

TT