'Charged Off'-means what exactly?

[middenmess]

Halifax terminated 7 days into the 14 day rectification period and I acknowledged their unlawful rescission.

 

I've been waiting for another promised 'final response' from a 'Senior Manager' regarding my letter of complaint.

 

As I have received a couple of calls and then a letter from Robinson Way chasing the 'debt' [on behalf of Halifax] whilst waiting for this letter I phoned and complained that collection activities should be suspended whilst the 'Senior Manager' investigates my complaint and that one more call from RW or anyone else would trigger a complaint to the FOS which would cost Halifax £450 and they agreed to cease chasing for the interim.

 

Today only 6 days later RW phoned so I contacted 'Customer Complaints' at Halifax only to be told that my account was charged off back in Feb and that Halifax couldn't tell RW what to do as they now owned the account!

 

Since the charge off date I have had minor contact from Halifax's 'Albion' and 'Blair Oliver & Scott' and then from RW in the past week, so what exactly does 'Charge Off' actually mean

[rebel11]

I think 'charge off' is when they take the account off there books.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charge-off

 

note:- this definition is US, but must be fairly similar to UK.

[middenmess]

Another torturous phone call to Halifax today about getting the final response to my complaint which revealed that

 

1] it will probably be up to another 4 weeks before I hear anything

2] Halifax consider the termination to be lawful as it is unnecessary to allow any days for service and this is why they have ignored my letter accepting unlawful rescission!!!

3] Account was sold to RW over 3 weeks ago!--this despite the account being put into dispute 9 months ago as only a smudged one sided application form was received in response to a CCA request [and my ongoing complaint still being looked into]

 

So after reading up on ''charge-offs'' I find I probably have a top of the tree default registered on my credit file for a debt that is unrecoverable/non existant in law due to Halifax's ignoring of the law that is the 1974 CCA regarding the correct procedure regarding Default & Terminations.

I will also have to spend time and money dealing with RW's possible court action for a non existent debt!

 

Comments and suggestions please.

[Essemess]

Sounds like the Halifax are making the rules up as they go along. From what I've read on here a letter to the DCA explaining that the account is disputed seems to have the DCA return the account to the original lender. Have a search on the forum for the "bemused letter".

 

I'm only at the beginning of my journey, so perhaps someone more experienced could confirm that this may be the best course of action.

[middenmess]

Just after my post at 3 above I received a letter from Halifax confirming that 'further information' was being obtained to enable the writer to complete his investigation.

 

As there was an invitation to contact the writer if further questions needed answering I telephoned him.

 

The short and sweet result was that he had written again yesterday to say that as the Bank are unable to provide the historic Terms & Conditions of my account they would not be seeking to enforce the debt.

The matter of the default notice and termination were not considered as they felt that they were not in error in this respect.

 

I then informed them that Halifax's collections Dept. had already sold on the account 3 weeks ago--this was met with silence and then a comment that they shouldn't have done so.

 

We ended the conversation with a promise that this would be 'escalated'

 

I await the letter confirming that they will not be seeking to enforce.

[rebel11]

Good, I hope this turns in your favour. You inspired me to go for the credit card charges, I'm pursuing Halifax for them.

[middenmess]

Good, I hope this turns in your favour. You inspired me to go for the credit card charges, I'm pursuing Halifax for them.

 

LOL-Never been an 'Inspirer' before:)

[MARTIN3030]

Midenmiss-so what have you kept in writing from both sides ?

Can you confirm that you was not informed that your account was being assigned (sold)

I think a Full SAR is in order here requesting specific info.

[middenmess]

Hi Martin

 

Have had several letters from Halifax but nothing regarding sale or assignment.

 

All are 'replies' to my complaint or replies to my letters--all sent by SD- trying to justify their decisions contained in previous letters.

 

The contents of each have been around 90% waffle or paragraphs which do nothing to address my issues.

 

Most of their letters has prompted a phone call from me to the writer in an attempt to clarify what I have stated in plain English which they seem unable or unwilling to grasp.

 

The true exception will be the letter which I was told has been sent which states that the bank will not be seeking to enforce as they are unable to provide me with the historic T & C's for my account.

 

As per my previous post the guy I was talking to [Mr.S.] was genuinely stunned when I told him that in a conversation the previous day with 'Customer Relations' I was told that the account was sold at the beginning of May to RW. Amongst other comments he said that he sympathised with me when I told him that it was likely to be very aggravating and frustrating with RW with something that should not have occurred.

 

Although he had made the decision that the bank would not seek to enforce he was completely unable to absorb fact that as Halifax had terminated the account before the 14 day period had expired they were no longer able to enforce the account.He agreed the date of the D/N notice with me but stated that as the account was not charged off until Feb [4 months later] they had not actually terminated until then.

 

Mr.S also said that Halifax have an excellant legal dept. and that he was going to bring my claim that the D/N was not compliant up with them-we'll see.

 

As soon as this letter arrives [they will really be trouble if it doesn't!!] I will then have to consider the position of the credit marker placed for an unlawfully termination which obviously involves the D/N.

 

As the notice of court proceedings from RW stated on behalf of HBOS I have only the information of the sale and the date from Halifax during a phone call to them and confirmed by Mr.S.

 

'The Letter' should be with me on Tuesday--if not here by Wednesday-look out Halifax!!

 

Letter to go away or else will then go to RW.

 

I had a ''full'' SAR around a year ago when I began this 'journey' so do I just now apply for one from that date to the present or should I just request specific information from them.

 

Tuesday can't come soon enough!!

 

PS.Purely by coincidence? I received identical notice to court from RW within 24 hours in regard of a Barclay CC account with similar issues.

[MARTIN3030]

"I had a ''full'' Subject access request around a year ago when I began this 'journey' so do I just now apply for one from that date to the present or should I just request specific information from them."

 

 

IMHO a tenner will be a very good investment to get EVERY SCRAP of info.

Needs to be exhaustive in detail-will come back.

 

Anyone else - feel free to give a list.

[middenmess]

I ended my last SAR with...

 

In summary I require a full disclosure of all the personal data that your company holds on me including and not limited to:-

All account information,loan information,contracts,agreements,notes,screenshots ,internal correspondence,telephone recordings and any related notes or transcripts,wherever held within the group regardless of the media,form or format in which it is held.

 

Edited May 30, 2010 by middenmess
bad link

[pompeyfaith]

Halifax-bank-bank-scotland/211244-25-days-late-3-a.html" target="_blank">http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...-late-3-a.html

 

Confused.

 

PF

[middenmess]

Hi Pompey--how are you?

 

Ooops!

 

Edited May 30, 2010 by middenmess
bad link

[pompeyfaith]

Halifax-bank-bank-scotland/211244-25-days-late-3-a.html" target="_blank">http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...-late-3-a.html

 

Is this a link the halifax sent you or is it a link to another of your threads.

 

PF

[middenmess]

Just a link to my thread last July that showed what Halifax sent me.

You've prob.seen it before.

Removed now.

[middenmess]

After 2 more phone calls and a call to me from the line manager of the Customer Relations Manager,I received the letter which I've copied below with the retorts that I'd like to send them in red.They appear adamant that the default notice was flawless and that a letter stating ''we have terminated your account'' doesn't actually mean what it says.They have also now stated that the account has not been sold in early May but was passed to RW just for them to collect in the middle of May.Muppets!

Any suggestions as to whether I can send this letter with my retorts to them or should I be looking at doing something else?

THE LETTER FROM HALIFAX

My understanding of your complaint is that you believe your account has been

unlawfully defaulted and you believe that the agreement is unenforceable.

 

 

In respect of the default issued by Blair Oliver & Scott

INCORRECT. DEFAULT ISSUED BY HALIFAX

I confirm that the default notice was issued on XX September 2009. This was followed up with a letter on X October and your account was then passed to an external collection company.

INCORRECT. PASSED TO ALBION WHO ARE 'INHOUSE'

To clarify at this point your account had not actually been defaulted.

INCORRECT.REFER TO

1983 No 1561

Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices) Regulations

1983

Made - - - 24th October 1983

Authority: Consumer Credit Act 1974, ss 76(3), (5), 87(4), 88(1), (4), 98(3), (5), 182(2), 189(1)

UK Parliament SIs 1980-1989/1983/1551-1600/Consumer Credit (Enforcement, Default and Termination Notices)

Regulations 1983 (SI 1983/1561)/1

 

 

Your account was actually defaulted on xx February 2010 and I can confirm that there is no requirement for the bank to issue subsequent default notices once the terms of the repayment plan agreed have been broken.

INCORRECT.1] NO REPAYMENT PLAN EVER IN EXISTANCE

2] YOU ARE UNABLE BY LAW TO ISSUE A DEFAULT NOTICE AFTER AN ACCOUNT HAS BEEN TERMINATED.

In this case as the required payments had not been made the account was defaulted and Blair Oliver & Scott have acted in line with the required regulatory requirements.

?????

 

 

In respect of your request for documentation under Section 78 at the moment we are unable to trace the reconstituted version of the executed agreement

WHAT????

and are therefore not in a position to provide a copy at this time. However, we did provide a copy of the signed application form and current terms and conditions. We are satisfied the terms and conditions of the agreement were on the reverse of the application form, therefore your client

I HAVE NO CLIENT

had sight of these details when he signed and accepted the terms.

 

 

The regulations define what is required of a "copy". Whilst regulation 3 provides "every copy" of an executed agreement... shall be a true copy". Regulation 3(2) (b) provides that a copy can omit any signature box, signature or date of signature.

WHAT REGULATIONS???

As we have been unable to provide the original terms & conditions we will not seek to enforce the agreement as defined by the case of McGurrick v RBS.

INCORRECT. NO SUCH CASE IN EXISTANCE.

However, even if an agreement is unenforceable, the contract still has legal effect and is not void, the lender is merely prevented from seeking an enforcement order from the court.

 

 

I note from your correspondence you are also disputing liability for this account but have given no basis for this dispute.

INCORRECT. THIS COMPLAINT REFERS TO THE UNLAWFUL RESCISSION OF THE AGREEMENT BY HALIFAX.

As we have provided a copy of your signed agreement

INCORRECT.IN A PREVIOUS PARAGRAPH YOU STATE..'' ..and are therefore not in a position to provide a copy at this time.''

and you have not disputed the fact that you have had the benefit of the agreement, we do not see on what basis you are disputing liability.

INCORRECT. THIS COMPLAINT REFERS TO THE UNLAWFUL RESCISSION OF THE AGREEMENT BY HALIFAX.

We will continue with our normal collections and credit reference reporting activities.

I hope this clarifies our position.

IT ONLY CLARIFIES THAT YOU DO NOT TAKE COMPLAINTS SERIOUSLY AND ANSWER ANY COMPLAINTS RECEIVED WITH PARAGRAPHS CUT AND PASTED FROM A DATA BASE OF TEMPLATE LETTERS WHICH ARE OFTEN IRRELEVANT TO THE MATTERS RAISED.

I have now completed my investigation into your concerns and I have to advise you that I am declining your complaint.

 

 

As this letter forms the Bank's final response on the matter I have to advise you that if you remain unhappy you can refer your concerns to the Financial Ombudsman Service. Blah,blah,blah.

~

Edited June 5, 2010 by middenmess
Missing words

[MARTIN3030]

Just a bit confused here

 

In post 1 you tell that you was told the account was charged off in Feb ?

 

I also see that you have quite a few other HF threads.

 

I think perhaps a good idea if you can just do a list here starting from begining by date and action-will be easier to get some understanding of whats gone on.

 

Can you say what the total arrears were ?

How were these made up ?

When did you open account ?

What type of account ?

When did it first go into default ?

[middenmess]

Hi Martin

I'll try to put events into sequence.

 

1]--Halifax card obtained in 1989 and as I was self employed I had the equivalent of PPI as well.

[The PPI element is not an issue at this time as I made several successful claims in later years for up to 12 months at a time]

2]--A relative recommended CAG and after much thread reading and advice I sent a SAR and calculated late charges +8% interest to be c.£600.

3]--Sent claim in for £600 to be paid within 14 days.Date ?

4]--This was ignored so sent in new claim for late charges + compound interest for a new total of £1600 Date ?

5]--A couple of letters and phone calls later I happily accepted c.£1k.

6]--phone call saying you are behind with payments and asking for just over £100 as minimum payment.Date ?

7]--I said that c.£1k had just been credited to the account as a repayment of charges.

8]--Was informed that the repayment of £1k into my account is not regarded as a payment and that a/c is still in arrears.

9]-I explained that those payments due were based on the total of the account before the unlawful charges were refunded and that the next statement that they send me should have all the neccessary adjustments on it and show a relevant sum due.So all above was in phone call-nothing in writing ?

10]--Also explained that I had put the account into dispute because of unsatisfactory response to CCA request and that all communication should be in writing.Had letter in early Sept. stating 'will not be seeking to enforce as we cannot provide copy of reconstituted agreement'

11]--Default Notice under 87[1[ CCA 1974 received -to be rectified before 16th October .What date was on letter ? What date did you get ?

12]--Letter dated 9th Oct. received 'we have terminated your credit agreement'

12A]--Oct. statement no longer included any charges for 'Repayment Cover/PPI and although O/S balance is half of my credit limit the amount to spend is now £0.00.

13]--Letter sent accepting unlawful rescission and requesting total of the correct arrears at that time Was it sent recorded ?--we then commenced a few ping-pong letters and phone calls which they deflected by not agreeing the termination.

14]--Statements adding late fees and interest [and a charge of £21.85 for visit of Power 2 Connect] sent up to Feb.2010

15]--No charges added since Feb. statement.

16]--No paper statements since Feb's but statement for April shown online with payment due by May 11th.

17]--Position now is as per the letter they sent above which states they will not seek to enforce but deny the 9th Oct. letter of termination means termination but the charge off on Feb.17th was the effective termination date.

Edited June 7, 2010 by MARTIN3030

[middenmess]

Hi Martin

I'll try to put events into sequence.

 

1]--Halifax card obtained in 1989 and as I was self employed I had the equivalent of PPI as well.

[The PPI element is not an issue at this time as I made several successful claims in later years for up to 12 months at a time]

2]--A relative recommended CAG and after much thread reading and advice I sent a SAR and calculated late charges +8% interest to be c.£600.

3]--Sent claim in for £600 to be paid within 14 days.Date ? Sent 28/7/09 signed for 29/7/09

4]--This was ignored so sent in new claim for late charges + compound interest for a new total of £1600 Date ? Sent 17/8/09 signed for 18/8/09

5]--A couple of letters and phone calls later I happily accepted c.£1k. They phoned me late afternoon 16/9/09 and after discussion I accepted their offer which I was told would be credited immediately.Asked for confirmation by letter which although dated as 16/09/09 took several days to arrive [as normal!] Repayment first showed online on 20/09/09.Offer was 'goodwill' with no admission of liability.Their timing was cute as my Sept.statement adding more charges which just put the account 'overlimit' by a few pounds was dated the 15th!.

6]--phone call saying you are behind with payments and asking for just over £100 as minimum payment.Date ? Phoned me on 20/09/09 and then following day received letter dated 16/09/09 requesting same amount for the 2 missed payments.Payments only initially withheld as they had failed to satisfy my CCA request and I had notified them that I considered the account to be in dispute.

7]--I said that c.£1k had just been credited to the account as a repayment of charges.

8]--Was informed that the repayment of £1k into my account is not regarded as a payment and that a/c is still in arrears.

9]-I explained that those payments due were based on the total of the account before the unlawful charges were refunded and that the next statement that they send me should have all the neccessary adjustments on it and show a relevant sum due.So all above was in phone call-nothing in writing ? 7,8 & 9 was all in the one phone call of 20/9/09.I wrote briefly about this phone call here..http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/halifax-bank-bank-scotland/224540-advice-regarding-default-notice.html#post2485579

 

10]--Also explained that I had put the account into dispute because of unsatisfactory response to CCA request and that all communication should be in writing.Had letter in early Sept. stating 'will not be seeking to enforce as we cannot provide copy of reconstituted agreement'

11]--Default Notice under 87[1[ CCA 1974 received -to be rectified before 16th October .What date was on letter ? What date did you get ? D/N is dated as 25/9/09 with the missed payment as above to be paid before 16/10/09 to rectify the breech.Received on 7/10/09.Posted UK Mail 2nd class.

12]--Letter dated 9th Oct. received on 15/10/09 'we have terminated your credit agreement'

12A]--Oct. statement no longer included any charges for 'Repayment Cover/PPI and although O/S balance is half of my credit limit the amount to spend is now £0.00.

13]--Letter sent accepting unlawful rescission and requesting total of the correct arrears at that time Was it sent recorded ? First accepted U/R in letter of 18/12/09 sent ord. mail and not denied by them in subsequent communications but I have also referred to it in the second letter of acceptance Sent Special Delivery on March 1st 2010--we then commenced a few ping-pong letters and phone calls which they deflected by not agreeing the termination.

14]--Statements adding late fees and interest [and a charge of £21.85 for visit of Power 2 Connect] sent up to Feb.2010

15]--No charges added since Feb. statement.

16]--No paper statements since Feb's but statement for April shown online with payment due by May 11th.

17]--Position now is as per the letter they sent above which states they will not seek to enforce but deny the 9th Oct. letter of termination means termination but the charge off on Feb.17th was the effective termination date.

 

Can you say what the total arrears were ? At 9th Oct termination just over £100

How were these made up ? 2 withheld payments [withheld, and so advised,as I considered in dispute as they had failed to produce a valid CCA-early Sept. they admit they are unable to provide CCA at present.]

When did you open account ? 1989

What type of account ? Halifax Visa card

When did it first go into default ? I withheld the payment due in August 2009

 

Basically I think that Halifax have cocked up all round--they unlawfully terminated and just to make it a banker they had in-house Albion demand full repayment by way of letter dated 26/10/09.[and many times thereafter]

Then in reply to one of my complaint letters they wrote to me on 4/12/09 and included the sentence..'Your account was closed and confirmed in a letter dated 9th October 2009....'

In the recent letter and phone calls they seem to think that an account is only defaulted when it is actually registered with Experian or similar.

Apologies for length of reply but it's difficult to put on [electronic] paper everything that is buzzing around in your mind!

Thanks again

M

Edited June 8, 2010 by middenmess
Missing information

[MARTIN3030]

Ok ta.

I saw pm.

Its been a long day so will print this off for bedtime reading and come back.

 

To anyone else reading......feel free to add thoughts if you have any:)

 

 

edit....oops long day was yesterday so I should say....since.

[lady-s]

Charged off in Halifax terms means this.

You have fallen into arrears and failed to meet your min monthly payment for 6 executive months,

Once you fall in to your second month of arrears, a block is placed on your card this is called Stage 2, if you clear your arrears at this point you will return to stage 1 and the block lifted. if you pay the mim require but not the arrears, you will remain in stage 2, if you do not make payment or you pay lower than the min, your account will go to stage 3 and so on until it reaches stage 6. at this stage you have 4weeks to clear the arrears before it is "charged off" passed to a DCA, None of these debts are not sold to the DCA,

Edited June 11, 2010 by lady-s
type error

[middenmess]

Charged off in Halifax terms means this.

You have fallen into arrears and failed to meet your min monthly payment for 6 executive months,

Once you fall in to your second month of arrears, a block is placed on your card this is called Stage 2, if you clear your arrears at this point you will return to stage 1 and the block lifted. if you pay the mim require but not the arrears, you will remain in stage 2, if you do not make payment or you pay lower than the min, your account will go to stage 3 and so on until it reaches stage 6. at this stage you have 4weeks to clear the arrears before it is "charged off" passed to a DCA, None of these debts are not sold to the DCA,

 

Above scenario does not include the issuing of a default Notice.

Account was terminated in October after withholding the payments due in August & September and full outstanding balance demanded so opportunity to pay arrears [if I had wanted to,had they produced an enforceable agreement] ended at that time.

 

''None of these debts are not sold to the DCA''

 

Sorry,I can't follow that statement

[lady-s]

Sorry, It means. Halifax do not sell their debts to debt collection agents. Even if your account has been charged off (passed to a debt collection) Halifax still own the account and still have all your details on their data base, so for them to tell you they are no longer dealing with the account is incorrect because they can still deal with you and withdraw the account from debt collectors.

[middenmess]

Bump -for Martin hopefully:)

[Fluffystuff]

Hello 'Angel No2' !

 

Are you any further forward with this?

 

Halifax continue to send me monthly statements, adding interest etc, so as in your situation, they really don't appear to think that they have terminated the account. Have not had any other contact from them or their DCA's since February!

I note on their last statement, there is a little note about pilfering monies from any other accounts held with them!!!