Slavery "Work for Your Benefit"

[Brown-Clegg-Cameron2010]

Anti-Slavery Day Act

Introduced by Conservative MP Anthony Steen, this started off as a Bill to introduce a national day to raise awareness of the need to rid all forms of modern day slavery. This become law on the 8th April 2010. The intention is to raise awareness amongst young people and others of the dangers and consequences of slavery, human trafficking and exploitation and encourage them to be proactive in the fight against it;

It also draws attention to the progress made by government and those working to combat all forms of slavery, human trafficking and exploitation,

 

The regulations (Jobseeker’s Allowance (Work for Your Benefit Pilot Scheme) Regulations 2010)

The Work for Your Benefit provision will be for customers receiving Jobseekers Allowance and will be tested in pilot areas from October 2010.

The Work for Your Benefit scheme is a mandatory employment programme with the sanctions regime operating in the same way as that applicable during Flexible New Deal. The sanctions regime will be delivered by Jobcentre Plus.

Benefit sanctions of up to 26 weeks are available to those who refuse to accept or take up a place on the scheme after being notified by Jobcentre Plus staff or fail to accept or take up a place on the Work for Your Benefit (workfare) scheme after being notified by Jobcentre Plus staff:x

 

Here's the maths on this.

http://www.flexible-new-deal.co.uk/2010/03/24/work-for-your-benefit-is-slavery/comment-page-1/

Edited May 12, 2010 by Brown-Clegg-Cameron2010
Added link

[seriousfred]

no, here is the real maths:

 

more people who could actually work if they got off their ar$es but have become permanently reliant on benefits = less money for those who really need the benefits and provision of good school and health services for everyone in this country.

[loopinlouie]

no, here is the real maths:

 

more people who could actually work if they got off their ar$es but have become permanently reliant on benefits = less money for those who really need the benefits and provision of good school and health services for everyone in this country.

 

 

[honeybee13]

seriousfred, I haven't seen you on the forum before.

 

I hope you're not referring to the desperate people we're trying to help? There are some very worrying threads on here.

 

HB

[RaeUK]

no, here is the real truth:

I am a troll. Don't bother replying to anything I say. I'll only think of worse insults to post and try to antagonise you. I don't have a life or friends and this is the only way I can get attention.

 

 

Sorry, seriousfred, was this what you meant to say?

 

Rae

 

Do not feed the troll...

[ee-bee]

guys,gals,DONT waste time even reading this idiots post,and certainly dont give him the satisfaction of replying to them,

[msowing]

Slavery for the Government is already in force.

 

Its called Carers Allowance!!! (Work caring for a minimum 35 hrs a week for £53.90. £1.54 an hr well below the minimum wage). I've been a slave for 20yrs now!!!

[seriousfred]

no, I will answer this and feel free to criticise as much as you want, just as much as I will feel free to respond. This is after all what debate in a free society is or at least should be.

 

whilst I have sympathy for anyone down on their luck and do believe the welfare system has major merits, I also believe that there are huge numbers of people who are now reliant on it to the point where they will not go to any major efforts to change their situation. everyone (myself included) is used to a society where we believe we have rights these days, when, although it is admirable to aim for such a society, in reality we are merely an advanced form (in some ways) of animal that lives with the illusion of such rights. We are not owed a living and although there is poverty in this country, there are relatively few instances of people not being able to eat or have some sort of roof over thier heads. And there would be a damn sight more money to help those who are truly in dire straits if they were the only ones receving welfare. And more cash for key workers, etc.

 

Do I deplore the massive growth of economic inequality in recent decades? Certainly. But do I think that the majority of people on benefits and disability merit the money they receive. I am not so sure.

 

For the record, I have been on various benefits myself and know or have known many friends and other people who are and/or have been too. No I don't agree in dressing anyone in benefits up in a striped suit and putting them in a chain gang or a poorhouse but I also don't think anyone should be on benefits for more than a medium term period at longest without contributing something back and showing progress to getting off benefits and becoming a contributing taxpayer.

 

Now, specifically, what is wrong with these thoughts? I welcome your responses. Particularly if they are sensible and in the spirit of a debate as opposed to merely throwing insults in my direction.

 

Also, in respose to the points put to me:

 

honeybee13: I am aiming this at people who feel they do not need to contribute to the society they are in, not to those who want to help themselves but are in dire straits at the moment. I have sympathy for many, many of the cases on here and have benefitted from many Caggers and the info on these forums but I also see quite a few posts from people who certainly don't seem to merit such thoughts and feel that they are owed something.

 

Kelcou/Rae: that's a strange comment! sarcasm is indeed the lowest form of wit and although I love a bit of good sarcasm, the majority of practitioners these days are absolute amateurs...your statement seems to fall in to this category...not sure what it adds, but look forward to hearing from you further if you can actually respond with a comment that is not completely nonsensical.

 

ee-bee: I am not doing this as a wind up or to stir. My statement may have sounded harsh but I believe it to be a true statement, if slightly simplistic. (but then so are the majority of comments posted on any internet forum, even one as good as CAG). It's the old trade off between granularity and brevity.

 

I am open to changing my mind too, I am not so fixed on any point apart from my set of basic moral values, which are mainly negative rights such as don't kill, etc. So if you strongly disagree and have coherently argued views feel free to edify me and I may well see your point of view. i.e. a debate.

[loopinlouie]

How many people from what youve read so far would you think are just trying to pull a fast one on these threads?

 

Do people on here sound rapped up in benefit cotton wool?

 

No they are asking for advice and help.

 

You just want an argument and along the way the thrill of kicking people when they are down.

 

Troll

[seriousfred]

no I don't want an argument at all. I am happy to take on board other people's views though but simply name calling because you don't agree with someone else's view is rather pathetic.

 

Saying an insult twice does not make it any truer but it does serve to illustrate that you don't seem to be able to think of anything else to say.

 

For the record, if I wanted an argument, I would be responding very differently than what I have posted so far and I would be much ruder i.e. like you have been in your previous post.

 

It is an extremely naive assumption that everyone on this forum is here in pure innocence (although I believe the vast majority have major issues and are indeed merely seeking help, as I have done myself on this forun and am very thankful).

 

For a start, I was not referring to Caggers specifically and never stated that I was or even implied this. I did however put forward a view, one which you are welcome to reply to, but there is no reason at all to hurl insults my way just because you have made assumptions about what I am saying.

 

And kicking people when they are down??? I have had plenty of down times in my life and that is the last thing I would do. That is in fact my very point, that welfare and benefits should exist solely to help those who are down by mere circumstance and through no efforts of their own.

 

By this I mean serious circumstance such as I am paralysed or I cannot get any job at all even though I have been applying non-stop for a number of months and done hundreds of applications and/or interviews, not I don't want to do that job because it doesn't pay much more than the dole and I don't like that job anyway.

[reallymadwoman]

no, I will answer this and feel free to criticise as much as you want, just as much as I will feel free to respond. This is after all what debate in a free society is or at least should be.

 

whilst I have sympathy for anyone down on their luck and do believe the welfare system has major merits, I also believe that there are huge numbers of people who are now reliant on it to the point where they will not go to any major efforts to change their situation.

Huge numbers? Do you have evidence of this? Whilst there are undoubtedly some less than honest people who claim benefits when they could work, and human nature being what it is, there always will be, I suspect the vast majority on benefits are not there by choice. A few examples:-

1. A uni graduate, excellent references, cannot get a job in her chosen field nor a job (despite loads of experience) in e,g, bar or shop work. She is currently getting the derisory carer's allowance for looking after me 24/7 but still looking for a job - any job.

2. Me. I am a highly qualified professional who contributed to society financially and socially for 30 years before I became sufficiently disabled to need that 24/7 care. My brain still works, and I would love to get out of the benefit system, but even if I could work a few hours a week, no one is going to employ me.

3. A neighbour. Single parent with two children under 5. She would love to work, but tax credits don't cover the whole cost of child care and she simply can't afford it. Yes, the father should be contributing, but since his violence was the cause of the break up, not even the job centre is making her go through the CSA.

everyone (myself included) is used to a society where we believe we have rights these days, when, although it is admirable to aim for such a society, in reality we are merely an advanced form (in some ways) of animal that lives with the illusion of such rights. We are not owed a living and although there is poverty in this country, there are relatively few instances of people not being able to eat or have some sort of roof over thier heads

Really? We may not have actually had to go without, but there have been many times when we've only had a tin of beans between us for dinner. And have you checked a few shop doorways at night recently?. And there would be a damn sight more money to help those who are truly in dire straits if they were the only ones receving welfare. And more cash for key workers, etc.

 

Do I deplore the massive growth of economic inequality in recent decades? Certainly. But do I think that the majority of people on benefits and disability merit the money they receive. I am not so sure.

 

For the record, I have been on various benefits myself and know or have known many friends and other people who are and/or have been too. No I don't agree in dressing anyone in benefits up in a striped suit and putting them in a chain gang or a poorhouse but I also don't think anyone should be on benefits for more than a medium term period at longest without contributing something back and showing progress to getting off benefits and becoming a contributing taxpayer.What do you suggest I do then? I've been on benefits for 5 years and short of a miracle, will be for as long as I live. Do my 30 years of contributions not count? What does the average young person in this area do for money to live since there aren't any jobs, or do you think their parents should continue to support them for life?

 

Now, specifically, what is wrong with these thoughts? I welcome your responses. Particularly if they are sensible and in the spirit of a debate as opposed to merely throwing insults in my direction.

No insults, I hope, just pointing out some faulty logic and inadequate evidence. Produce the evidence of the 'huge numbers' on benefits through idleness, and I'll concede that you might have a point.

 

Also, in respose to the points put to me:

 

honeybee13: I am aiming this at people who feel they do not need to contribute to the society they are in, not to those who want to help themselves but are in dire straits at the moment. I have sympathy for many, many of the cases on here and have benefitted from many Caggers and the info on these forums but I also see quite a few posts from people who certainly don't seem to merit such thoughts and feel that they are owed something.

 

Kelcou/Rae: that's a strange comment! sarcasm is indeed the lowest form of wit and although I love a bit of good sarcasm, the majority of practitioners these days are absolute amateurs...your statement seems to fall in to this category...not sure what it adds, but look forward to hearing from you further if you can actually respond with a comment that is not completely nonsensical.

 

ee-bee: I am not doing this as a wind up or to stir. My statement may have sounded harsh but I believe it to be a true statement, if slightly simplistic. (but then so are the majority of comments posted on any internet forum, even one as good as CAG). It's the old trade off between granularity and brevity.

 

I am open to changing my mind too, I am not so fixed on any point apart from my set of basic moral values, which are mainly negative rights such as don't kill, etc. So if you strongly disagree and have coherently argued views feel free to edify me and I may well see your point of view. i.e. a debate.

 

The thing that absolutely bugs me the most is that because there are, and always will be, some people who work the benefits system to their advantage, the vast majority who are genuine have to jump through a million and one hoops to get a pittance that is totally inadequate even for basic necessities. Just look at the numbers, particularly for DLA and ESA, of how many claims are allowed on appeal and it's obvious that the initial process is designed to turn down as many claims as possible.

[honeybee13]

seriousfred, have you considered offering your undoubted talents to the DWP to help them track down the undeserving? I honestly don't think you're going to find many of them here, as you've pretty much said.

 

We've all heard of benefit claimants who are living in luxury and playing the system, but I haven't met one here. I don't think any of us is against putting and end to abuse, but I for one don't know how to go about it.

 

HB

[loopinlouie]

no I don't want an argument at all. I am happy to take on board other people's views though but simply name calling because you don't agree with someone else's view is rather pathetic.

 

Saying an insult twice does not make it any truer but it does serve to illustrate that you don't seem to be able to think of anything else to say.

 

For the record, if I wanted an argument, I would be responding very differently than what I have posted so far and I would be much ruder i.e. like you have been in your previous post.

 

It is an extremely naive assumption that everyone on this forum is here in pure innocence (although I believe the vast majority have major issues and are indeed merely seeking help, as I have done myself on this forun and am very thankful).

 

For a start, I was not referring to Caggers specifically and never stated that I was or even implied this. I did however put forward a view, one which you are welcome to reply to, but there is no reason at all to hurl insults my way just because you have made assumptions about what I am saying.

 

And kicking people when they are down??? I have had plenty of down times in my life and that is the last thing I would do. That is in fact my very point, that welfare and benefits should exist solely to help those who are down by mere circumstance and through no efforts of their own.

 

By this I mean serious circumstance such as I am paralysed or I cannot get any job at all even though I have been applying non-stop for a number of months and done hundreds of applications and/or interviews, not I don't want to do that job because it doesn't pay much more than the dole and I don't like that job anyway.

 

I mentioned troll once, another cagger said it also, therefore I said troll not twice.

 

You say you are paralised and looking for work, how would you like it if you were still after all your efforts considered a shirker or pulling a fast one. How do I know you are genuinely looking for work and not just saying it. How do I know your saying you are paralised is not just a laid on ankle spain you exagerating.

 

Another words we help each case on its merits and dont label all the same.

 

If you want a debate on labelling benefits claimants as on the scrounge then go to the daily mail:lol:

[loopinlouie]

Just one more thing, I notice when a lot of people say they know someone who is in their view commiting benefit fraud or saying has a bad back and need stick etc and then seen jogging down the road, they are advised to report them.

 

They then shirk away and say couldnt do that, they are family or they are a friend or fact it they are talking carp for the sake of conversation and probebly dont know the true facts.

 

If you know anyone genuinely commiting fraud report it, anyone here would say that. If the facts are laid on or they are just doing something out of malace it will get sorted in the end.

 

I know of a case where someone was reported out of malice and didnt realise I was a friend very close friend of that person and told me what they did. Reported an old man visiting a young woman who he had become frineds with, nothing sinister, as living together. It caused a great deal of stress was easily sorted, but the old man then collapsed and had his first of three strokes.

 

That get who poked their nose in and judged him, knew nowt and was only after the reward for ciggs. ****. No reward was paid:)

 

The old man died. He was so upset as wrongly thought being judged by dwp doing something wrong, i think the get killed him as a result.

Edited May 12, 2010 by loopinlouie

[seriousfred]

hi reallymadwoman,

 

in response to your last point first and also in relation to your first point, I can only go on my personal experience as can you and everyone else. My experience is that I have met a great many people who could work but find it quite easy not to and who also see the benefits system as a game of sorts.

 

I am not just blaming people as it is quite compatible for people to have a moral compass and, an at least quite high, moral code yet still try to do the best they can from a system and/or justify to themselves their own sometimes less moral actions. Essentially, what I am saying is that I believe the system needs tightening up severely - not so much as in heartlessly kicking people off any benefit but a much more rigourous system for finding the cheats.

 

with regards to the examples you gave, I don't feel that they should be disallowed but this is not all the types of case where people are claiming benefit. Although, domestic violence, lack of parental responsibility and greater support for working parents are areas that need a much greater focus on from any government.

 

you also said "What does the average young person in this area do for money to live since there aren't any jobs, or do you think their parents should continue to support them for life?". My answer would be that young poeple have to be prepared to go where there are jobs. People have always had to do that, whether it be oving to another part of the country or emigrating. Ok ou may say that would break up a community to a degree but is it really worse than having a community that is socially deprived and as a consequence has less and less opportunities for its young people? Jpbs don't just appear on trees, they have to come from somewhere after all.

 

 

when you state, "pointing out some faulty logic and inadequate evidence. Produce the evidence of the 'huge numbers' on benefits through idleness, and I'll concede that you might have a point," I agree I don't have exact proof or numbers but then neither do you nor does anyone else who states that my views are incorrect on this basis. As I say I can only go on my personal experience, which is reasonably significant in this area and does not paint an amazingly pleasant picture.

 

And as a final point, if you have contributed for years then of course I think you have every right to claim, even if you cannot ever get off the benefits. Indeed, I feel that anyone who is truly disabled and/or needs 24/7 care should not have to fight for assistance.

 

I do think however that there are jobs where disabled people can contribute. there should of course be more and employers should be incentivised to work with this need. I don't like positive discrimination in general but when there are truly great disparities it serves a purpose for a period of time to provide greater equality of opportunity.

 

Assuming someone can type or speak or some other basic function then there should be jobs that can be done in many instances (of course not all) and I certainly notice more disabled people working than in previous times. However, I don't pretend to know your specific details so please don't assume I am making a statement about you when I am not.

[seriousfred]

loopinlouie - you obviously read what I said too quickly (what a surprise, eh??)

 

I never said I was paralysed or looking for work. These were quite clearly mentioned in the context of people who are in serious enough circumstances to warrant benefits.

 

Perhaps before correcting me on how many times you have insulted me you might actually read the post correctly before making further comment.

 

It really seems that if you don't agree with someone then you try to frame their view in such a way that you can present them as being in the wrong. That is a shame as it effectively means you cannot abide anyone having a view that differs from yours. Long live free speech, eh loopinlouie?

[loopinlouie]

I cannot see the point of serious freds posts. On the last post he accepts he doesnt know the numbers of genuine and apposed to shirkers, mywords used. He adds he accepts people disabled are entitled to as much help as needed.

 

More suitable jobs should be available for disabled people yep, but they arnt;)

 

So who are we to judge when the only examples of shirkers we see are the daily mail type families, do we judge all the sam on that? A lot of people do.

 

I think anyone on benefits strives to get off them. I just dont understand your need to debate something only a govt can sort out. Edit. Maybe you should become an mp, hey.

[loopinlouie]

My point is:

 

Is a forum offering unbiased help and advise the place for such a debate. I dont think so peple who feel guilty for relying on the state when dont want to dont need to read this crap from you:mad:

 

Sorry about the paralised bit, but my point stands people with no legs and one arm and hardly mobile are being pestered enough by atos etc... I think they know what they are capable of doing more than atos:lol:

[loopinlouie]

Lets hope they come up with good work from home jobs for the mentally ill patients. No they wont, they will instead do as before and pretend they dont exist.

[seriousfred]

I cannot really see the point of your replies either for that matter, loopinlouie. why is your experience any greater than mine?

 

My experience is of a great number of people cheating the system as is that of many other people I know. And no, I don't read the daily mail...or the sun...or any other scaremongering paper. furthermore I take any journalistic story with a certain amount of salt as they all have some agenda or another. But yet again, here you are making unfounded assumptions about me!

 

what do you base your thought that "I think anyone on benefits strives to get off them" on?? let me guess, either anecdote or your experience. so how is that more valid than my experience. please elaborate.

 

as to not having a debate because only a government can change that, I have rarely heard a more asinine statemnt in my life! Shall we debate nothing unless we can change it ourselves?? Wait, let's extend that thought - why even have elections, why debate national issues, why even vote? let's just let someone have permanent power and dictate our lives to us with no recourse. great one loopinlouie. absolutely inspired.

[loopinlouie]

Weakest link has just joked that entitlement to benefit could possibly be judged on size of telly, there you go serious fred, rip into that one xxx

[Surfer01]

I was in full time employment until Nov 2008 when the company I was working for went into administration and closed. For several months I tried to get work and eventually got temporary work for three months which finished in Oct 2009 and nothing since because no one wants to employ someone in their sixties that has a disability.

I hate having to jump through hoops just to get a few bob but I have to as we need the income. At the moment I am back on ESA but are hoping to get back to JSA as I would really like a reasonable income. We have already had to sell a car and other stuff to help us survive as we also have debts to pay.

[loopinlouie]

I cannot really see the point of your replies either for that matter, loopinlouie. why is your experience any greater than mine?

 

My experience is of a great number of people cheating the system as is that of many other people I know. And no, I don't read the daily mail...or the sun...or any other scaremongering paper. furthermore I take any journalistic story with a certain amount of salt as they all have some agenda or another. But yet again, here you are making unfounded assumptions about me!

 

what do you base your thought that "I think anyone on benefits strives to get off them" on?? let me guess, either anecdote or your experience. so how is that more valid than my experience. please elaborate.

 

as to not having a debate because only a government can change that, I have rarely heard a more asinine statemnt in my life! Shall we debate nothing unless we can change it ourselves?? Wait, let's extend that thought - why even have elections, why debate national issues, why even vote? let's just let someone have permanent power and dictate our lives to us with no recourse. great one loopinlouie. absolutely inspired.

 

 

Anotherwords you are talking rubbish for the sake of having something to moan about and decided this forum would get you a bite. Pointless posts to rile and make people feel like rubbish as someone else has personal experiences, of what, crap by the sound of it.

[Rooster-UK]

If this is to be a serious debate, then fine.

 

But I'm sure we can do it without trying to score points off other posters.

 

Thank you for your co-operation.

 

Regards, Rooster.

[honeybee13]

Thank you Rooster. I was about to unsubscribe.

 

HB